First Transpennine Class 170s

[turbostar172]

When FPTE Get the New Class 350/4s, when will the turbostars be leaving and which TOC Are they going to?

Many thanks

 

[Eagle]

Nothing will be leaving TPE when the 350s arrive.

 

[turbostar172]

That's what I have been told when I went to the London Midland 'Meet the managers' session

 

[Class83]

Presumably initially double up the 170's so Hull is 4 car 170s (as I think the 185s are restricted round there) making TPE South 185 only. Once the 5th train between Manchester and Leeds starts in 6 months time things might be tighter again, not sure whether that uses less units than the Scottish services free up.

 

[Eagle]

That's what I have been told when I went to the London Midland 'Meet the managers' session

They're mistaken then.

There may be a cascade of 170s or 185s once the Manchester to York line is electrified and new EMUs are procured, but that's not for five years or so yet.

 

[turbostar172]

FTPE Have the Turbostars to run on the Hull services and the 170/3 was the last which were free. Turbostars are lighter than 185's so therefore can run maximum speed while 185's have to run at a slower speed, however Network Rail are engineering the line so they can run 185's to the max.

The 350's will run scottish services via Wigan and Eccles until they Electrify the Bolton line.

When the 350's arrive the Turbostars are either going to London Midland Or Scotrail

 

[Eagle]

When the 350's arrive the Turbostars are either going to London Midland Or Scotrail

This is completely not true.

TPE need to keep all their DMUs for the next few years to run the enhanced service that's part of the Northern Hub plans, including an extra service each hour between Manchester and York which will start from this May.

Only when that line is electrified can they start giving their DMUs away.

 

[WatcherZero]

Hes mistaken.

350's are staying via Wigan permanently (unless they change their mind in future, bit of local protest but its the favoured strategy by policy makers and the toc itself as it releases capacity on Bolton line for additional services, improves reliability as less conflict with slower local services, improves Wigan services), possibly being cascaded to LM if a new unified fleet is ordered for Manchester-Scotland and electric TPE services at the end of the decade.

When the 350's arrive TPE are putting on an express service between Liverpool and Newcastle, more Transpennine capacity and strengthening existing services by doubling up, theyve already put in the application to continue using them.

 

[Eagle]

Also, Scotrail have no need at all for DMUs for the foreseeable future; because of all the lines being electrified and presumably 380s or similar being ordered to work them, this will release more than enough DMUs for their needs, and it's likely that some may end up coming south of the border.

LM may need DMUs, but electrification to Rugeley will release a few for them (as well as the Marston Vale and Leamington to Nuneaton, although it's not certain exactly what service patterns or operators will end up being there). And they still have the option of a follow-on order of 172s.

 

[Manchester77]

As it is TPE won't have enough 350s to have all Manchester - Scotland services electric and with TPE promising more capacity through their core they really need every DMU they can get!
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I imagine the LM could have been confused by their own order of 350/3s which could cascade a few DMUs?

 

[YorkshireRider]

Hes mistaken.


When the 350's arrive TPE are putting on an express service between Liverpool and Newcastle

How frequent will this service run, and by express do you mean less calling points, Man Picc, Leeds, York, Darlington only? Are TPE still running to Scarbrough?

 

[Eagle]

I imagine the LM could have been confused by their own order of 350/3s which could cascade a few DMUs?

Not sure it'll release any DMUs at all. The 350/3s are partially for strengthening WCML services, and partially for the Cross-City line once it's extended to Bromsgrove and the Redditch line works are complete (allowing 3tph to each).

I guess there's a possibility that the few Birmingham to Walsall services still operated by 170s (which is a legacy of them formerly running to Rugeley) might go electric, but that will free up one or maybe two units, which will probably end up strengthening Shrewsbury or Hereford services.

 

[northwichcat]

When the 350's arrive the Turbostars are either going to London Midland Or Scotrail

You've already been told that is wrong.

TPE in their track access application for the May 2014 changes (which has been approved) states:

* Manchester Airport to Scotland services will be run by 350s and 185s
* Manchester Airport to York, Manchester Piccadilly to Hull and Manchester Airport to Sheffield/Cleethorpes services will be run by 185s and 170s
* Other services will be run by only class 185s.

Also don't forget that once the Ordsall Chord opens and Blackpool services go electric (and release 185s) that North TPE will go to 6tph which initially will be all diesel, so it'll be around 2018 before TPE can release the 170s to other routes or areas.

 

[turbostar172]

I've been told FTPE Are getting rid of the turbo's to London Midland and LM Are also getting LO 172's
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You've already been told that is wrong.

TPE in their track access application for the May 2014 changes (which has been approved) states:

* Manchester Airport to Scotland services will be run by 350s and 185s
* Manchester Airport to York, Manchester Piccadilly to Hull and Manchester Airport to Sheffield/Cleethorpes services will be run by 185s and 170s
* Other services will be run by only class 185s.

Also don't forget that once the Ordsall Chord opens and Blackpool services go electric (and release 185s) that North TPE will go to 6tph which initially will be all diesel, so it'll be around 2018 before TPE can release the 170s to other routes or areas.

I was meant to state that I've been told I'm not saying it is happening

 

[northwichcat]

I've been told FTPE Are getting rid of the turbo's to London Midland and LM Are also getting LO 172's

In your original post you said TPE are releasing their 170s and asking who are going to get them. Then when Eagle said that was wrong you said either Scotrail or LM are getting the 170s - that was only 8 minutes after you originally asked. Where did that extra information come from?

Nothing has been agreed regarding where the LO 172s will go and if LM agree to take them on then they may be asked to release other DMUs they have e.g. the 153s.

 

[Techniquest]

Well it's been said multiple times that's wrong. Admittedly I didn't know 350s were coming to the CrossCity line, or that it'll eventually be 6 trains per hour (tph) over the Pennines, more or less Metro-style service between Manchester and Leeds! So I've learnt stuff reading this thread.

172s coming from LO to LM makes some sense, but they could equally go to Chiltern...

 

[turbostar172]

In your original post you said TPE are releasing their 170s and asking who are going to get them. Then when Eagle said that was wrong you said either Scotrail or LM are getting the 170s - that was only 8 minutes after you originally asked. Where did that extra information come from?

Nothing has been agreed regarding where the LO 172s will go and if LM agree to take them on then they may be asked to release other DMUs they have e.g. the 153s.

Right so FTPE Are keeping the turbos? correct

 

[Techniquest]

TPX will keep the 170s for the foreseeable future, yes.

 

[turbostar172]

TPX will keep the 170s for the foreseeable future, yes.

Nice one!! cheers guys

 

[northwichcat]

Admittedly I didn't know 350s were coming to the CrossCity line, or that it'll eventually be 6 trains per hour (tph) over the Pennines, more or less Metro-style service between Manchester and Leeds!

Well not quite because they'll be semi-fasts and expresses and 2tph will be from Piccadilly only and 2tph will be from Victoria only. (The other 2tph will serve both via the Ordsall Chord.)

The North TPE post-electrification pattern in the HLOS for CP6 is:
* Half-hourly fast Liverpool – (Chat Moss) - Manchester Victoria – Leeds – York – Newcastle electric service.
* Half hourly fast Manchester Airport – Manchester Piccadilly – Manchester Victoria – Leeds – York electric service.
* Hourly semi-fast Manchester Piccadilly – Leeds – Selby electric service.
* Hourly semi-fast Manchester Piccadilly – Leeds – Selby – Hull diesel service.

 

[Techniquest]

Nice one!! cheers guys

Nay drama

Things change all the time on the railway, so what you were told could have easily been correct at the time the person who told you found out about it, but changed significantly since.

Whilst we're on the topic, which services do TPX use 170s on on their TPX South route?

 

[turbostar172]

Nay drama

Things change all the time on the railway, so what you were told could have easily been correct at the time the person who told you found out about it, but changed significantly since.

Whilst we're on the topic, which services do TPX use 170s on on their TPX South route?

They do Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes

Man Air - ManPicc - Stockport - Sheffield - Doncaster - Cleethorpes

sometimes they'll terminate at Sheffield or Doncaster

 

[Techniquest]

Well not quite because they'll be semi-fasts and expresses and 2tph will be from Piccadilly only and 2tph will be from Victoria only. (The other 2tph will serve both via the Ordsall Chord.)

The North TPE post-electrification pattern in the HLOS for CP6 is:
* Half-hourly fast Liverpool – (Chat Moss) - Manchester Victoria – Leeds – York – Newcastle electric service.
* Half hourly fast Manchester Airport – Manchester Piccadilly – Manchester Victoria – Leeds – York electric service.
* Hourly semi-fast Manchester Piccadilly – Leeds – Selby electric service.
* Hourly semi-fast Manchester Piccadilly – Leeds – Selby – Hull diesel service.

Ah right, well Metro-like if you want to go from Manchester to Leeds at least, regardless of stopping pattern in between. Still, thanks for the gen
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They do Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes

Man Air - ManPicc - Stockport - Sheffield - Doncaster - Cleethorpes

sometimes they'll terminate at Sheffield or Doncaster

It's not all Manchester to Cleethorpes services though is it?

 

[Brian Aylott]

It is I suppose possible the DfT's decision that TSGN release 10 x 387s in 2016 is so that TPE can have them and release their 350/4s to LM
Brian

 

[WatcherZero]

How frequent will this service run, and by express do you mean less calling points, Man Picc, Leeds, York, Darlington only? Are TPE still running to Scarbrough?

From memory yes, hourly calling at:

Liverpool LS
Manchester Vic
Huddersfield
Leeds
York
Northallerton
Darlington
Durham
Newcastle

Yes theres still an hourly Liverpool-Scarborough.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah right, well Metro-like if you want to go from Manchester to Leeds at least, regardless of stopping pattern in between. Still, thanks for the gen

Well really the other way around Metro like going to Manchester from Leeds or Huddersfield (or going between Huddersfield and Leeds.) However, if you're at Piccadilly then it'll still be 4tph so no more metro like than it is currently.

A positive is it'll mean a clock face Manchester/Huddersfield to York service rather than the current 3tph with a half-hour gap between some services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From memory yes, hourly calling at:

Liverpool LS
Manchester Vic
Huddersfield
Leeds
York
Northallerton
Darlington
Durham
Newcastle

I think alternate trains will call at Chester-le-Street.

 

[Eagle]

It is I suppose possible the DfT's decision that TSGN release 10 x 387s in 2016 is so that TPE can have them and release their 350/4s to LM
Brian

Although the general consensus is that the 387s will go to Great Western. (General consensus has been wrong before, of course.)

Admittedly I didn't know 350s were coming to the CrossCity line...

Not necessarily.

LM have said that seven of the 350/3s are for WCML services and three are for Cross-City, but I reckon it's more likely that all ten /3s will go to the WCML, and three /2s will be sent to the West Midlands. Now they could go straight to the Cross-City, or alternatively they could be used on Wolverhampton–Walsall or Birmingham International services, bumping three 323s onto the Cross-City. Or a mixture of both.

 

[Techniquest]

Although the general consensus is that the 387s will go to Great Western. (General consensus has been wrong before, of course.)

387s? TSGN? Now I'm lost...

LM have said that seen of the 350/3s are for WCML services and three are for Cross-City, but I reckon it's more likely that all ten /3s will go to the WCML, and three /2s will be sent to the West Midlands. Now they could go straight to the Cross-City, or alternatively they could be used on Wolverhampton–Walsall or Birmingham International services, bumping three 323s onto the Cross-City. Or a mixture of both.

Ah right, very much dependant on decisions made before a hopeful 2014 delivery. Shall have to try and keep an eye on updates!

 

[northwichcat]

387s? TSGN? Now I'm lost...

It relates to the latest Electrostar design: http://www.bombardier.com/en/media-...f-month=all&f-type=all&show-by-page=50&page=1

 

[Eagle]

387s? TSGN? Now I'm lost...

387s are new Electrostars (sometimes previously referred to as 377/8s) that have been ordered for Southern as part of the new Southern–Thameslink–Great Northern franchise. They have been specified for 110 mph.

The franchise documents for the TSGN franchise state however that they will be cascaded very quickly, circa 2016-7, as the new Thameslink 700s arrive. 110 mph EMUs plus 2016-7 seems to equal the GWML services to Oxford and Newbury, which will become electric around that time, but there are other possibilities that would benefit from 110 mph (such as displacing 350/4s to LM, or on London to Corby services which should be electric in 2017).