First Transpennine Class 170s

[Techniquest]

Thanks for the gen, I assumed it was 377/8s and not heard of them being 387s before. Should be interesting to see what happens then in the next few years

 

[tbtc]

It's not all Manchester to Cleethorpes services though is it?

Its a mix of single 170s and single 185s from Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes - can't remember the numbers, but you're more likely to get a 185.

I think there's still one doubled up 170 through Sheffield on a Sunday

387s? TSGN? Now I'm lost...

387s = the the new name for what we used to call 378/8s (i.e. the extra order of Bombardier EMUs for Southern, as a stopgap, due to move elsewhere once the combined Thameslink Southern Great Northern (TSGN) franchise have the 700s required for Thameslink.

The 387s are either going to go to run the newly electrified Thames Valley services, or the newly electrified Liverpool - Newcastle services or (insert random line here) according to current "gen"

 

[northwichcat]

but there are other possibilities that would benefit from 110 mph (such as displacing 350/4s to LM, or on London to Corby services which should be electric in 2017).

Indeed. Up to 256 vehicles could be delivered. In 4 car formation that would be 64 units which could be a good number for TPE remembering that some parts of TPE aren't to be electrified but more services will run on the bits that are electrified.

 

[YorkshireBear]

To sum up the cascades of stock around the country over the next 10 years are going to keep this forum very busy! It is fascinating stuff! (girlfriend disagrees....)

Also with TPE going to 6tph, but while it is diesel the Huddersfield-Victoria stopper is removed and two TPE services calling at two of the intermediate stations each. Once electrification comes along Huddersfield will gain a Piccadilly stopper.

All very complex and interrelated. It really is one of the most complex series of events i have come across in the industry. (it being CP5 electrification and rolling stock provision)

 

[noddingdonkey]

4 car units should be the bare minimum on TPE - if the Aire/Wharfe triangle merits 4 cars (with higher density seating) TPE with their longer distance services and 2+2 seating surely ought be at least 6 car.

 

[tbtc]

To sum up the cascades of stock around the country over the next 10 years are going to keep this forum very busy! It is fascinating stuff! (girlfriend disagrees....)

Also with TPE going to 6tph, but while it is diesel the Huddersfield-Victoria stopper is removed and two TPE services calling at two of the intermediate stations each. Once electrification comes along Huddersfield will gain a Piccadilly stopper.

All very complex and interrelated. It really is one of the most complex series of events i have come across in the industry. (it being CP5 electrification and rolling stock provision)

I agree.

I think we are going to see a number of units used temporarily over the rest of the decade, as some DMUs are cascaded away from newly electrified liens, onto other busy routes that are then electrified, cascading them away again.

We'll probably also see some services cut/ reduced for a few years, to suit the electrification map, then reinstated... all at the same time that we are meant to be withdrawing 100+ DMUs (or taking them out of service for periods to upgrade them to new access requirements). Its going to be hectic!

 

[Suraggu]

Class 170's are not being cascaded to any other operator.
The Class 350's once all in service will displace Class 185's to other services. This will then displace the Class 170's on diagrams other than Hull services so most of the Manchester -Hull Services will be 4 cars.

The Liverpool -Newcastle service will use Class 185's displaced from the arrival of the class 350 fleet.

 

[Techniquest]

Suitably genned up now, thanks all. At least I'll still be able to get a 185 to Edinburgh for some time yet!

 

[northwichcat]

Also with TPE going to 6tph, but while it is diesel the Huddersfield-Victoria stopper is removed and two TPE services calling at two of the intermediate stations each. Once electrification comes along Huddersfield will gain a Piccadilly stopper.

Just to add reinstating the stopper (as well as 6tph) is subject to business case, which suggests that it might not if passenger numbers don't grow enough or if DfT decide to limit how many additional trains the north can have.

6tph on North TPE is pretty much a given as it's been used in both the business case for the Ordsall Chord and North TPE electrification.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Suitably genned up now, thanks all. At least I'll still be able to get a 185 to Edinburgh for some time yet!

The plan at the moment is that the 185s will still operate some services to Scotland from next May, mainly on Fridays and weekends when as many services as possible to Scotland will be either 2 x 350 or 2 x 185. Not only will it provide extra capacity but it will also retain traction knowledge for Scottish crews.

If anyone is interested the first *booked* passenger working for a 350/4 will be the 0558 MIA - EDB on 30/12/2013.

The plan is that the 170s will operate mainly in 4 car formation and I believe mainly on the South route with the odd Hull route workings on the busiest trains. The rest of the Hull diagrams would be 185s. This provides additional capacity on both routes. Some of the current 2 x 185 services in the peaks on the North Route will be reduced to 1 x 185 to allow units to be used on the additional services. Overall however there is an increase in the number of seats.

After May 2014 the TPE North Route services will be:

Liverpool - Newcastle via Man Vic.
Liverpool - Scarborough via Warrington and Man Picc
Manchester Airport - York
Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough
Manchester Piccadilly - Hull

 

[ainsworth74]

If anyone is interested the first *booked* passenger working for a 350/4 will be the 0558 MIA - EDB on 30/12/2013.

What's the level of certainty behind that? Is it 'Unless something major goes wrong' or more like 'We're hoping that this will be the first'?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

What's the level of certainty behind that? Is it 'Unless something major goes wrong' or more like 'We're hoping that this will be the first'?

That is what the unit diagrams show, as always things can change if problems occur (late delivery of units, slow progress at driver training etc).

 

[swt_passenger]

How frequent will this service run, and by express do you mean less calling points, Man Picc, Leeds, York, Darlington only?

I think the Liverpool to Newcastle service is 'express' by comparison with current timings, but the improvements are all west of Leeds because it is made more direct by going through Victoria instead of Piccadilly.

AFAICT it will run almost every hour, but from December the existing Man Airport to Newcastle service will only run as far as York.

I've read a few articles about this 'new service' that seem to imply that it is a second Newcastle service, but that's for a future change.

 

[ainsworth74]

That is what the unit diagrams show, as always things can change if problems occur (late delivery of units, slow progress at driver training etc).

Interesting, thanks

 

[northwichcat]

I think the Liverpool to Newcastle service is 'express' by comparison with current timings, but the improvements are all west of Leeds because it is made more direct by going through Victoria instead of Piccadilly.

They'll be no real difference between Leeds and Manchester. Leeds-Victoria will be 1 minute quicker on the Newcastle-Liverpool service than Leeds-Piccadilly on the Middlesbrough-Airport service. The difference is Manchester-Liverpool on the ex-Newcastle service will take 32 minutes whereas on the ex-Scarborough service it'll take 52 minutes. This will be due to a combination of running non-stop between Manchester and Liverpool and line speed improvements on Chat Moss.

 

[Techniquest]

Aye I was interested too, if I can I'm severely interested in making a trip up there for that first 350/4.

Non stop MCV-LIV is interesting, I'd certainly use that in preference to going via Runcorn.

 

[Haydn1971]

Looking further forward, I'm aware that some refurbished 319's will head to Northern for Manchester to Liverpool routes, I'm mindful that more EMU's will come from the SE area as routes are electrified - but kinda seeing TPE staying as a premium service with new EMU's coming to them first, but what of the huge 185 fleet once Manchester to Leeds is electrified ? Is GM/WY/SY ITA's gonna let them go elsewhere or will they end up backfilling as the older DMU fleet in the north is slowly scraped as EMU's get cascaded north.... Also, what EMU's are likely to be cascaded north ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is GM/WY/SY ITA's gonna let them go elsewhere ...

They can express an opinion, but they are not actually in control of the TPE rolling stock, never have been.

 

[tbtc]

Is GM/WY/SY ITA's gonna let them go elsewhere

Is not really up to them.

There are still going to be a number of longer distance routes in northern England (or routes that involve a bit of a hill) that 185s could be suited to - including the unelectrified Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes/ Barrow services.

You've got the Calder Valley route, you've got Buxton, you've got places left off the CP5 plans (Middlesbrough, Scarborough), there'll be plenty of demand for them.

 

[Manchester77]

Looking further forward, I'm aware that some refurbished 319's will head to Northern for Manchester to Liverpool routes, I'm mindful that more EMU's will come from the SE area as routes are electrified - but kinda seeing TPE staying as a premium service with new EMU's coming to them first, but what of the huge 185 fleet once Manchester to Leeds is electrified ? Is GM/WY/SY ITA's gonna let them go elsewhere or will they end up backfilling as the older DMU fleet in the north is slowly scraped as EMU's get cascaded north.... Also, what EMU's are likely to be cascaded north ?

Ideally northern will have a big fleet of refurbished 319s which would also replace the 321/322s which could then go off to GA. There seems to be two options for TPE; first is to take up the offer of extra 387s or the second is the desiro 118 mph train.

185s have various routes both near where they currently operate and elsewhere, I've always thought they'd be good for the Buxton line. Elsewhere you could have some highland routes.

 

[tbtc]

Ideally northern will have a big fleet of refurbished 319s which would also replace the 321/322s which could then go off to GA

Going off topic, but I reckon that 86x319 would be enough for all "local" EMU routes in northern England that will see wires in CP5 (inc the Blackpool and Windermere parts of TPE, not including the 16x333s that would stay in West Yorkshire).

That frees up 321, 322 and 323s for service elsewhere (i.e. replaces the 25x 32x EMUs with Northern).

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah probably see the 185's in pairs replace Sprinters on some long distance non-electrified high demand services contributing to the removal of Pacers. They wont neccesarily stay in the North but I could think of some good routes for them. Blackburn/Clitheroe springs to mind, singly they would be very good for Cumbrian services.

 

[Haydn1971]

Is not really up to them.

At the moment no... In the future, that is looking increasingly likely to change.

 

[Bevan Price]

Also, Scotrail have no need at all for DMUs for the foreseeable future; because of all the lines being electrified and presumably 380s or similar being ordered to work them, this will release more than enough DMUs for their needs, and it's likely that some may end up coming south of the border.

.

If any Scottish dmus become surplus after further electrification, I suspect they might prefer to keep all their class 170s, and use them to replace 156s.

 

[Eagle]

Probably. Scotrail treat their 170s as all-purpose units, pretty much.

 

[158722]

Going off topic, but I reckon that 86x319 would be enough for all "local" EMU routes in northern England that will see wires in CP5 (inc the Blackpool and Windermere parts of TPE, not including the 16x333s that would stay in West Yorkshire).

That frees up 321, 322 and 323s for service elsewhere (i.e. replaces the 25x 32x EMUs with Northern).

If you go back and read this tome of a thread, then you will see I agree with you...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89934

 

[northwichcat]

That frees up 321, 322 and 323s for service elsewhere (i.e. replaces the 25x 32x EMUs with Northern).

There is an agreement in place between DfT and TfGM that if the 323s leave Greater Manchester the replacement units will have CCTV installed before they replace the 323s. That was a compromised agreement - TfGM wanted an assurance the 323s would stay in GM before they funded the CCTV installation.