First Potteries Discussion

[158756]

Taking Burslem to Hanley as an example, the new timetable has 74 journeys per day compared to 73 currently, however this seems to be from a couple of earlier buses and a better evening service.

Between 8am and 6pm there are currently 60 journeys from Burslem to Hanley this drops to 52 under the new timetable.

At present the average day time journey from Burslem to Hanley is 11 minutes, this increases to between 15 and 18 minutes next month.

The biggest gap I can see is a 22 minute gap between services from 1349 to 1411, there is also a 21 minute gap between departures from 0822 and 0843 - right in the middle of the rush hour.

A 103 and a 38 both leave Burslem for Hanley at 0920 but for some reason the 103 does the journey 1 minute quicker.

Currently if I go online looking for the timetables I only need to look up or print off 1 timetable, now I need to look up or print off 3 different timetables.

The majority of journeys will involve both longer waiting times and longer journey times. I can't see how this will encourage more passengers on board.

Big increases in journey times seem to be a feature of these AI timetables.

As well as Burslem to Hanley, I see Hanley to Newcastle increases from 22 minutes all day on the 4/4A to 25/26 minutes off peak and up to 31 minutes peak on the new 38; there are mid-afternoon journeys from Crewe on the 103 which take 90 minutes vs 69 in the current timetable, the 25 gets 10-15 minutes extra on some journeys.

There's also now a 27 minute gap in buses arriving at Keele between 0826 and 0853, which is caused by a 17 minute difference in running times for buses which leave Hanley 10 minutes apart. I don't know Keele Uni but that seems like a bad idea if lectures start at 9?

Are the current timetables impossible to keep or are these new times going to have buses spending half the time standing at timing points? I know here in Lancashire some of the extra time First are giving their buses seems unnecessary.

 

[Mollman]

Big increases in journey times seem to be a feature of these AI timetables.

As well as Burslem to Hanley, I see Hanley to Newcastle increases from 22 minutes all day on the 4/4A to 25/26 minutes off peak and up to 31 minutes peak on the new 38; there are mid-afternoon journeys from Crewe on the 103 which take 90 minutes vs 69 in the current timetable, the 25 gets 10-15 minutes extra on some journeys.

There's also now a 27 minute gap in buses arriving at Keele between 0826 and 0853, which is caused by a 17 minute difference in running times for buses which leave Hanley 10 minutes apart. I don't know Keele Uni but that seems like a bad idea if lectures start at 9?

Are the current timetables impossible to keep or are these new times going to have buses spending half the time standing at timing points? I know here in Lancashire some of the extra time First are giving their buses seems unnecessary.

One hopes that the plan is to use the software to review the timetable every few months and therefore it will pick up on excessive running time. Might be another year yet before it is resolved though.

 

[Volvodart]

One hopes that the plan is to use the software to review the timetable every few months and therefore it will pick up on excessive running time. Might be another year yet before it is resolved though.

Most First operations have a service review every six months, so it should be picked up then.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

One hopes that the plan is to use the software to review the timetable every few months and therefore it will pick up on excessive running time. Might be another year yet before it is resolved though.

Most First operations have a service review every six months, so it should be picked up then.

The question is whether the software can identify slow running / excess running times. If the bus departs, takes 25 / 31 minutes Hanley to Newcastle as timetabled is there any way, other than customer / driver feedback, to know whether it takes 25 / 31 minutes due to traffic or due to dawdling along at stalling speed. Even if the bus waits for one minute at each stop is that due to slow boarding passengers or sat twiddling thumbs.

I noticed on the Sunday times:
38 (long): 25 minutes Hanley to Newcastle, with six minutes wait at Hanley before that and three after at Newcastle.
38 (short): 19 minutes.
In the other direction:
39 (long): 27 minutes with two minutes and six minutes wait either side.
39 (short): 20 minutes.

Very attractive I'm sure.

 

[G760XRE]

For disposal I believe if I remember Andy Metcalfe (First fleet manager)’s post

Was there any indication if there are 2 vehicles due to replace these, or does Potteries have a surplus presently?

 

[dodecahedron67]

Was there any indication if there are 2 vehicles due to replace these, or does Potteries have a surplus presently?

Sorry I can’t remember, it was something I read in passing

 

[G760XRE]

Parked up at Adderley Green depot today was Potteries Wright Streetdeck 35937 MF72WBU, freshly painted in the new First Group livery with side advert panels for bus driver of the year 2024. Alongside was First Leicester Streetdeck Electroliner 36631 BN24ZWV. They were surrounded by a group of drivers, probably getting ready to drive these up to this year's event.

 

[James101]

First weekday of the big changes to the former 3/4. I had a couple of observations - there’s inconsistency with the destinations displayed on the new mega-circulars. I seen 39/As between Tunstall and Hanley displaying ultimate terminals as Hanley, Kidsgrove, Waterhayes and Butt Lane - all are conceivably correct but adds to the confusion.

Stoke council provided timetable displays have been updated, but also include some phantom Stanton’s new services. First provided displays (provision by each party seems fairly random) had not been updated. Image attached shows the now out of date roadside information for the 4/4A, who can spot the missing piece of critical information?!

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure why but on checking BusTimes yesterday it seems that the new 103 service wasn't tracking yet other First Potteries services were tracking no problem which I found odd whether any of the other new/revised services aren't tracking either I'm not to sure.

 

[G760XRE]

Not to sure why but on checking BusTimes yesterday it seems that the new 103 service wasn't tracking yet other First Potteries services were tracking no problem which I found odd whether any of the other new/revised services aren't tracking either I'm not to sure.

None of the new Potteries services (38,38a,39,39a,103 and Sunday 43) are tracking. Same happened when the 36,36a were 1st introduced. I've reported this via the gov.uk open data website.

 

[markymark2000]

None of the new Potteries services (38,38a,39,39a,103 and Sunday 43) are tracking. Same happened when the 36,36a were 1st introduced. I've reported this via the gov.uk open data website.

The Crewe 6 never tracked once and that was in operation for months. Sadly First Group aren't bothered about compliance with the open data laws. This has been brought up with the area directors and they didn't care either sadly. All we can do is sit and hope they update Ticketer (I wouldn't mind but it can be done in less than 30 seconds to add a service to an AVL feed)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

First weekday of the big changes to the former 3/4. I had a couple of observations - there’s inconsistency with the destinations displayed on the new mega-circulars. I seen 39/As between Tunstall and Hanley displaying ultimate terminals as Hanley, Kidsgrove, Waterhayes and Butt Lane - all are conceivably correct but adds to the confusion.

Stoke council provided timetable displays have been updated, but also include some phantom Stanton’s new services. First provided displays (provision by each party seems fairly random) had not been updated. Image attached shows the now out of date roadside information for the 4/4A, who can spot the missing piece of critical information?!

The Stantons services are not phantom.

 

[G760XRE]

The Crewe 6 never tracked once and that was in operation for months. Sadly First Group aren't bothered about compliance with the open data laws. This has been brought up with the area directors and they didn't care either sadly. All we can do is sit and hope they update Ticketer (I wouldn't mind but it can be done in less than 30 seconds to add a service to an AVL feed)

That's why I didn't bother contacting First. If you contact gov.uk open data it usually gets rectified fairly quickly. Took a couple of days last time with the 36/36a. 38/39/103 etc all tracking today - I reported the issue Monday morning.

 

[markymark2000]

That's why I didn't bother contacting First. If you contact gov.uk open data it usually gets rectified fairly quickly. Took a couple of days last time with the 36/36a. 38/39/103 etc all tracking today - I reported the issue Monday morning.

I was reporting the 6 for months via the BODS feedback system and nothing got done.

Glad they got it sorted now though.

 

[G760XRE]

Few observations from Adderley Green First Potteries depot today.

Potteries 63348 and 67173 both sat parked up outside missing panels. Haven't seen 67173 out in months.

Two Leeds Wright Streetdecks 35617/8 parked up. Not sure why they're here?

The Streetdeck that has been parked outside for months ahead of paint/transfer to South Yorkshire (35271) has gone. Maybe finally got its turn in the paint shop.

Only 3 ex eclipse Streetlites are currently outside awaiting paint now (63402/4/5). Although I read elsewhere that some have been pushed into service at South Yorkshire ahead of being painted due to vehicle shortages there.

Withdrawn First Cymru 44504 is parked up missing some body panels.

 

[Whiteway215]

Few observations from Adderley Green First Potteries depot today.

Withdrawn First Cymru 44504 is parked up missing some body panels.

Would that be there to provide spare parts for the Potteries couple 44511 and 44514 ?

 

[Simon75]

The new AI timetables are a pain, and not popular. The random times are confusing people, especially some of the waiting time.
For example a 39 today from Hanley arrived in Kidsgrove (by Aldi) at 11.02, but departed 11.19

 

[LAIRA]

The new AI timetables are a pain, and not popular. The random times are confusing people, especially some of the waiting time.
For example a 39 today from Hanley arrived in Kidsgrove (by Aldi) at 11.02, but departed 11.19

Just time to pop into Aldi for a quick shop

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Few observations from Adderley Green First Potteries depot today.

Potteries 63348 and 67173 both sat parked up outside missing panels. Haven't seen 67173 out in months.

Two Leeds Wright Streetdecks 35617/8 parked up. Not sure why they're here?

The Streetdeck that has been parked outside for months ahead of paint/transfer to South Yorkshire (35271) has gone. Maybe finally got its turn in the paint shop.

Only 3 ex eclipse Streetlites are currently outside awaiting paint now (63402/4/5). Although I read elsewhere that some have been pushed into service at South Yorkshire ahead of being painted due to vehicle shortages there.

Withdrawn First Cymru 44504 is parked up missing some body panels.

Catching up on this a bit:

35271 went to Leicester on loan (believe helping out while they await the return of their StreetDecks being converted to EV - understanding is that already converted 70102 and 35188-192 will make up the six needed).

35617/18 are now both in Solent multi-tone blue and yellow and are at First Solent (35617-20 are all transferring there).

 

[Whiteway215]

Withdrawn Cymru 44504 was reported parked at Potteries.
Does anyone know if it has gone from there?

 

[Bristol LH]

Withdrawn Cymru 44504 was reported parked at Potteries.
Does anyone know if it has gone from there?

She was officially sold from the Firstbus fleet in September

 

[G760XRE]

Withdrawn Cymru 44504 was reported parked at Potteries.
Does anyone know if it has gone from there?

Wasn't on site last weekend.

 

[G760XRE]

Noted a few non first vehicles today at Adderley Greent depot.
First was brand new Preston bus 20626 https://www.flickr.com/photos/195213371@N03/54094749033/in/datetaken-public/
Behind this were 3 dealer white B8RLEs. No indication who the owner of these 3 are, that I could see. Bus lists on the Web doesn't have the owner listed either as yet.

First Adderley Green 26.10.24

3x brand new Volvo B8RLE with MCV bodywork BU74YVJ, BU74YVK plus a third which is either BU74YVH or L. Owner unknown, and reason for being at AG also unknown. Additionally freshly painted streetlite 63402 SV22UZD for First Sout Yorkshire

www.flickr.com

Photos are both mine

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Noted a few non first vehicles today at Adderley Greent depot.
First was brand new Preston bus 20626 https://www.flickr.com/photos/195213371@N03/54094749033/in/datetaken-public/
Behind this were 3 dealer white B8RLEs. No indication who the owner of these 3 are, that I could see. Bus lists on the Web doesn't have the owner listed either as yet.

First Adderley Green 26.10.24

3x brand new Volvo B8RLE with MCV bodywork BU74YVJ, BU74YVK plus a third which is either BU74YVH or L. Owner unknown, and reason for being at AG also unknown. Additionally freshly painted streetlite 63402 SV22UZD for First Sout Yorkshire

www.flickr.com

Photos are both mine

I'm beginning to understand why First South Yorkshire repaints - who had been using the recently reopened Adderley Green paintshop - have dried up. It looks like they are doing contract painting for others (despite a clear need to repaint within the group...). 20626 had entered service in white, so has been to AG for paint into Preston's scheme, and presumably the three B8RLE/MCV are there are paint before delivery to somewhere...

 

[capitalpotter]

Noted a few non first vehicles today at Adderley Greent depot.
First was brand new Preston bus 20626 https://www.flickr.com/photos/195213371@N03/54094749033/in/datetaken-public/
Behind this were 3 dealer white B8RLEs. No indication who the owner of these 3 are, that I could see. Bus lists on the Web doesn't have the owner listed either as yet.

First Adderley Green 26.10.24

3x brand new Volvo B8RLE with MCV bodywork BU74YVJ, BU74YVK plus a third which is either BU74YVH or L. Owner unknown, and reason for being at AG also unknown. Additionally freshly painted streetlite 63402 SV22UZD for First Sout Yorkshire

www.flickr.com

Photos are both mine

Could the Evoras belong to D&G? I know they've purchased a further 7 along with the 7 added last month

 

[Travelmonkey]

If they are D&G at least they won't have far to return when in the the new colours, it must have a good incentive to do outside paint work though for other companies. If Rotala are satisfied with the Preston work I recon some of the the Midland Classic livery Diamonds will be sent the other side of the county for blueing.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Not sure where to place this, could as well go into D & G or Stantons.

A third tranche of bus services is out to tender.

The tender opportunity for the latest journeys will be open until Wednesday 11 December. Once the new routes have been introduced they will run until March 2026.

The bus service enhancements form part of the wider Bus Service Improvement Plan which is being funded by £31.6 million of funding from the Department for Transport (DfT).

The plan has also included the highly successful Affordable Fares scheme, which offers discounted bus fares to adults and young people, and bus stop upgrades across the city.

Earlier this week, the city council announced that it has received nearly £10 million from the DfT to improve the local bus network. This funding will be used to build on the success of the Bus Service Improvement Plan in the coming years.

The new bus journeys being advertised are:

• Service 2 (Hanley – Birches Head) – new evening service, Monday to Saturday
• Service 5 (Hanley – Abbey Hulton) – new evening service and additional early morning buses, Monday to Saturday
• Service 7A (Hanley – High Lane – Fegg Hayes) – new evening service, Monday to Saturday
• Service 8 (Hanley – Norton – Ball Green) – new evening service, Monday to Friday
• Service 9 (Fegg Hayes – Bradeley – Hanley – Newcastle) – new evening buses Monday to Saturday, and daytime Sunday service
• Service 23 (Hanley – Blurton – Newstead) – new late evening buses, Monday to Saturday
• Service 27 (Adderley Green – Meir Hay – Longton) – new daytime service, Monday to Friday
• Service 27A (Bentilee – Longton – Trentham Lakes) – new direct shift-time service, every day
• Service 36 / 36A (Meir – Longton – Hanley – Tunstall – Kidsgrove) – new Sunday evening service
• Service 38 / 39 (Hanley – Festival Park – Newcastle) – new evening service, every day
• Service 40 (Hanley – Mount Pleasant – Longton – Wedgwood) – new Saturday daytime service
• Service 96 (Packmoor – Tunstall – Middleport) – new daytime service, Monday to Friday
• Service 500 and 501 – new links to the Etruria Valley development site from Stoke and Hanley

In addition, the city council is also carrying out a formal tender of services 19, 19A and 42 though these are to the same timetables, so no overall change.

Link to the full press release here.

 

[SeanM1997]

103 changes from 5 January 2025:

Weekdays:
Significant timetable changes with some services removed. Late evening services cut. First departure from Crewe at 0641 and last departure at 2005

Saturdays:
Significant timetable changes with some services removed. First departure from Crewe at 0630 and last departure at 1932

Sundays:
Services to operate approximately every 50 minutes instead of every 60. Timetable changes with first departure from Crewe at 0946 and last departure from Crewe at 1957

 

[43055]

103 changes from 5 January 2025:

Weekdays:
Significant timetable changes with some services removed. Late evening services cut. First departure from Crewe at 0641 and last departure at 2005

Saturdays:
Significant timetable changes with some services removed. First departure from Crewe at 0630 and last departure at 1932

Sundays:
Services to operate approximately every 50 minutes instead of every 60. Timetable changes with first departure from Crewe at 0946 and last departure from Crewe at 1957

Maybe it is down to the wonderful ai timetable of complete randomness. I'll await the Sunday service to either go back to every hour or withdrawn next.

 

[Simon75]

103 changes from 5 January 2025:

Weekdays:
Significant timetable changes with some services removed. Late evening services cut. First departure from Crewe at 0641 and last departure at 2005

Saturdays:
Significant timetable changes with some services removed. First departure from Crewe at 0630 and last departure at 1932

Sundays:
Services to operate approximately every 50 minutes instead of every 60. Timetable changes with first departure from Crewe at 0946 and last departure from Crewe at 1957

Is there a source for this please?
Which journeys are getting withdraw?