First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

A director of First South West regularly posts on here and has made clear there was no overall loss from not winning the tendered services in Cornwall - they replaced the lost turnover with increased school/college contract commitments and no driving staff were lost through the changes. So much so, Go Ahead had service delivery issues when starting their operations as driving staff didn't migrate to Plymouth Citybus. They got away with the worst of that as they took over at the end of March 2020. Had the country not been in lockdown the issues would have been much worse.
The Exeter, Dartmoor and Exmoor operations were lower risk ventures, making use of idle off peak vehicles, so overall, you'd have some income from that work backing up the contract mileage. Some have worked, others not.

That is broadly true though they would clearly have liked to have retained their tendered work in Cornwall; IIRC, they were to introduce some commercial registrations for lost services when lockdown came so they never appeared.

Also, whilst Dartmoor is an off-peak service around schools work, the others were higher risk as some dedicated resources were needed though again, they did seem to adopt a sensible approach in mitigating risk by acquiring some old fleet (Lizard, Exeter). Arguably the greatest risk and biggest success has been the Exmoor Coaster which has gone from strength to strength with a further uplift planned for 2023. As you say, they had to kiss a few frogs and not all (Exeter Tour) became princes.

They have focussed on developing the contract business too (with a few contracts in Somerset - slightly incongruous when you see Truronian - Cornwall's Coach Company working in the area), and I think that is where the said FSW director will continue to work as a consultant.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

More likely being shrunk with frequencies being revised to work in conjunction with other services where possible, such as in Leeds with services 1/1B/N1/6/8/27/28 running through Headingley - I can see services 1/6/8/27 and 28 all being cut to run hourly a piece sometime in the future, however between West Park and the city centre it would be frequent because of the number of services running through Headingley centre.

Daft as it may be, I can see the Oldham operation soldiering on with just Vantage and the 184 (Huddersfield to Oldham/Manchester) and the Pompey, Berkshire and Wessex operation being relocated to Slough.

1/ 6/ 8/ 27 and 28 running an hourly frequency? Pull the other one.

 

[83G/84D]

Thought this would be of interest:-

FIRST BUS ORDERS and outstanding deliveries 2022-2023.



34402 ADL Enviro 400MMC ADL for Caledonia.

35837-35851 Wrightbus Streetdeck Wt for SPS.

35915-35926 Wrightbus Streetdeck Wt for Ipswich.

35939-35950 Wrightbus Streetdeck Wt for Adderley Green.

36501-36520 Wrightbus Electroliner BEV Wt for York.

38462-38496 BYD D8UR ADL E400EV for Caledonia.

44441-44449 ADL Enviro 200 ADL for Caledonia.

Ex RATP.

49900 Switch Mobility MC1080EV Switch for Slough.

On loan as demonstator.

54111-54114 Mercedes Benz Sprinter Islebus I-City for Camborne.

63444-63453 Wrightbus Streetlite Max Wt for Cymru.

63454-63466 Wrightbus Streetlite Max Wt for Essex.

63501-63568 Wrightbus GB Kite EV Wt for Leicester.

63569-63600 Wrightbus GB Kite EV Wt for Leeds.

63601-63634 Wrightbus GB Kite EV Wt for Hoeford.

63535-63643 Wrightbus GB Kite EV Wt for Norwich.

63644-63667 Wrightbus GB Kite EV Wt for York.

64153-64207 BYD D9UR ADL E200EV for Glasgow.

65101-65124 Yutong E12 Yutong for Aberdeen.

Source:- British Bus Publishing 2023 First Bus Handbook.

 

[SSmith2009]

63501-63568 Wrightbus GB Kite EV Wt for Leicester.

the infrastructure works have commenced at Abbey Lane (Leicester depot)

68 buses must be a good 75% of the Leicester fleet

First Leicester starts work on electric bus infrastructure

First Leicester has started work on installing the necessary infrastructure for its 68-strong Wrightbus battery-electric bus fleet.

www.route-one.net

First Leicester has broken ground on infrastructure work to support 68 battery-electric buses that are being part-funded via a Zero Emission Bus Regional Areas (ZEBRA) fast-track bid submitted by Leicester City Council.

The first of the Wrightbus GB Kite Electroliner single-deckers will arrive from March 2023. To support them, over 10km of cable are being installed at the operating centre. As a further part of the upgrade work, solar panels will be fitted to the south-facing side of the depot roof. They are expected to generate 54% of the building’s requirements, not including that used to charge the buses.

In total, £29.1m is being put to the First Leicester project. That includes ZEBRA money and capital investment from the operator. When all 68 of the GB Kite Electroliners are in use, they will account for approximately two-thirds of group’s fleet in the East Midlands. 60 tonnes of exhaust emissions per year will be saved by each member of the electric bus fleet, First Leicester claims.

Work by the Leicester Bus Partnership aims to have half of the city’s overall bus network converted to zero-emission operation by 2025 and the transition complete by 2030. Both Arriva Midlands and Centrebus have also recently either placed into service or ordered such vehicles that are part-funded by the LCC ZEBRA bid.

To mark the start of electrification work by First Leicester, Mayor Sir Peter Soulsby (pictured, lower left), Deputy Mayor Adam Clarke (pictured, upper second from left) and LCC Programme Manager (Buses) Andy Gibbons (pictured, upper third from left) visited the depot.

They were joined by First Bus Chief Sustainability and Compliance Officer Isabel McAllister (pictured, lower right), First Leicester Operations Director Rob Hughes (pictured, upper third from right) and Brookes Development Operations Director Mario De Luca (pictured, upper left). Brookes is managing and coordinating the work. It has already been involved in other schemes with First Bus.

Says Mr Hughes: “This is an exciting project that is not only planned to improve the journey experience for our customers with the arrival of 68 brand new electric buses, but is a major transformation of our depot and its functions.
“We are working closely with the construction team on site to minimise any disruption to our day-to-day requirement to operate efficiently, and we are keeping our staff up to date on the weekly progression of the project.”

The 68 buses for Leicester form the largest single portion of an order for 193 battery-electrics placed with Wrightbus by First Bus earlier in 2022. The group’s businesses in Leeds, Norwich, Portsmouth and York will also benefit, all via successful ZEBRA bids.

 

[LAIRA]

Thought this would be of interest

Is that correct 109 buses for Norwich?

 

[Stan Drews]

Is that correct 109 buses for Norwich?

Erm, no …just the 9

 

[Volvodart]

I wonder what Somerset Passenger Solutions will be getting for its future regular fleet displacements, now diesel purchasing has been completed this month. It is going to be costly for electric buses and infrastructure to be fully funded by them, or to pay the lease costs to cover for the work and buses.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder what Somerset Passenger Solutions will be getting for its future regular fleet displacements, now diesel purchasing has been completed this month. It is going to be costly for electric buses and infrastructure to be fully funded by them, or to pay the lease costs to cover for the work and buses.

I'm sure EDF can afford to fund it all. I'm a bit surprised that electrification hasn't started yet given that EDF doesn't miss any opportunities to push its Green credentials in respect of Hinkley Point.

 

[317 forever]

I can certainly see those and Potteries as potential targets.

I had considered Potteries and even Ipswich as being vulnerable to closure or divestment.

However, with imminent or recent Streetdeck deliveries these seem less likely now.

 

[Simon75]

Also in the Potteries they have invested in refurbishing around 20, 63 plate Streetlights .
As a Potteries user, I'm surprised its still going due to service cut backs, but a lot has been taken over by D&G

I had considered Potteries and even Ipswich as being vulnerable to closure or divestment.

However, with imminent or recent Streetdeck deliveries these seem less likely now.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Also in the Potteries they have invested in refurbishing around 20, 63 plate Streetlights .
As a Potteries user, I'm surprised its still going due to service cut backs, but a lot has been taken over by D&G

22 in total; 4 x 13 plates, 8 x 63 plates, 1 x 14 plate, 9 x 64 plates. 20 painted orange with "mainline" branding, the final 2 in grey with "spare bus" branding

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I had considered Potteries and even Ipswich as being vulnerable to closure or divestment.

However, with imminent or recent Streetdeck deliveries these seem less likely now.

Buses can easily be moved around the country. Investment into one location, whilst nice to have, does not guarantee long-term life in that location.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Buses can easily be moved around the country. Investment into one location, whilst nice to have, does not guarantee long-term life in that location.

Indeed but to be fair to @317 forever , they are saying that is less likely now and that's probably fair enough. Likewise, as you say, it doesn't preclude anything happening in future

 

[overthewater]

Why has First given up on Southampton, yet have kept the likes of Ipswich, Colchester and Stoke on Trent? Looking in Southampton isn't the one I would get rid of first.

I still think First should be looking at trying to grab some of the arriva operations.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Why has First given up on Southampton, yet have kept the likes of Ipswich, Colchester and Stoke on Trent? Looking in Southampton isn't the one I would get rid of first.

I still think First should be looking at trying to grab some of the arriva operations.

Presumably the powers that be have taken a more detailed look at the finances of the operations rather than just looking in

I'm not familiar with most of these operations, posters in the Southampton closure thread allude to the fact that the vast majority of Southampton's route are duplicated by duplicated by another operator. That's certainly not the case in Stoke, especially on what appear to be First's more profitable routes

 

[cnjb8]

Why has First given up on Southampton, yet have kept the likes of Ipswich, Colchester and Stoke on Trent? Looking in Southampton isn't the one I would get rid of first.

I still think First should be looking at trying to grab some of the arriva operations.

Presumably the powers that be have taken a more detailed look at the finances of the operations rather than just looking in

I'm not familiar with most of these operations, posters in the Southampton closure thread allude to the fact that the vast majority of Southampton's route are duplicated by duplicated by another operator. That's certainly not the case in Stoke, especially on what appear to be First's more profitable routes

The closure of Southampton also releases a quite large fleet of StreetLites for cascade

 

[DragonEast]

Indeed but to be fair to @317 forever , they are saying that is less likely now and that's probably fair enough. Likewise, as you say, it doesn't preclude anything happening in future

Why has First given up on Southampton, yet have kept the likes of Ipswich, Colchester and Stoke on Trent? Looking in Southampton isn't the one I would get rid of first.

I still think First should be looking at trying to grab some of the arriva operations.

I tend to agree. I realise it's all about the balance sheet, but find it rather ironic that both First and Arriva in the East face the same problems and have now arrived (though perhaps from opposite ends of the spectrum) at dealing with them in the same way under, effectively, the "same" management. Wouldn't it be easier and more efficient with one operation rather than two, across the northern Home Counties, perhaps like Arriva and Sovereign managed in Herts over a decade ago (against the odds, admittedly)? Yes, of course, it's the eternal bus conundrum. But perhaps eventually we have to be brave enough to grasp the nettle, if we want to have a bus industry, and not just a hobby.

 

[richw]

Why has First given up on Southampton, yet have kept the likes of Ipswich, Colchester and Stoke on Trent? Looking in Southampton isn't the one I would get rid of first.

I still think First should be looking at trying to grab some of the arriva operations.

The operation in Southampton is relatively small, with a major competitor. Southampton has been making losses for many years prior to covid and covid has worsened that.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The closure of Southampton also releases a quite large fleet of StreetLites for cascade

Ideally for those depots which have some of the oldest fleet.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why has First given up on Southampton, yet have kept the likes of Ipswich, Colchester and Stoke on Trent? Looking in Southampton isn't the one I would get rid of first.

I still think First should be looking at trying to grab some of the arriva operations.

In Ipswich and Colchester, they have a reasonable business that isn't impacted by competition and have felt bold enough to increase competitive moves against Arriva in Colchester. They might also think that Ipswich Buses is vulnerable.

Meanwhile, in Southampton, they have a very strong adversary in Go Ahead who have the Unilink contract underpinning their operations, a large and underutilised depot, and are losing a fortune with no expectation that will change.

 

[Simon75]

Why has First given up on Southampton, yet have kept the likes of Ipswich, Colchester and Stoke on Trent? Looking in Southampton isn't the one I would get rid of first.

I still think First should be looking at trying to grab some of the arriva operations.

Colchester had a new garage built in 2016. I would have thought Arriva would have pulled out (the have done before)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2022 ==

Presumably the powers that be have taken a more detailed look at the finances of the operations rather than just looking in

I'm not familiar with most of these operations, posters in the Southampton closure thread allude to the fact that the vast majority of Southampton's route are duplicated by duplicated by another operator. That's certainly not the case in Stoke, especially on what appear to be First's more profitable routes

Stoke-on-Trent only have a few duplicate services to different places, but via a different route to D&G

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Thought this would be of interest:-

Hmm, not sure those GB Kite EV quantities are correct. 193 Wrightbus EVs have been ordered, and Norwich are due 15 - so six have been missed off somewhere.

38462-96 are the outstanding part of the 91 BYD DD/ADL for Glasgow (indeed up to 38469 have already been delivered), while 64153-57 are the last five of the 35 ordered last year (and presumably due soon), and Scotstoun are due 50 in 2023, so that will be 64158-207.

Not sure about 34402, either - Glasgow have only bought EV for a while, so why would they have an additional E400 MMC when they have been cascading others out?

The StreetDeck and StreetLite orders (the diesel ones) are the last of the current order. The remaining Ipswich examples (35915-26) have been delayed a bit from when originally expected - presumably as other deliveries to York and Potteries were prioritised. Both York and Potteries have got StreetDecks for University services, it should be noted.

BBP books have often had minor errors in them, but generally this is correct as far as I'm aware aside from the above.

 

[envirommc]

Hmm, not sure those GB Kite EV quantities are correct. 193 Wrightbus EVs have been ordered, and Norwich are due 15 - so six have been missed off somewhere.

38462-96 are the outstanding part of the 91 BYD DD/ADL for Glasgow (indeed up to 38469 have already been delivered), while 64153-57 are the last five of the 35 ordered last year (and presumably due soon), and Scotstoun are due 50 in 2023, so that will be 64158-207.

Not sure about 34402, either - Glasgow have only bought EV for a while, so why would they have an additional E400 MMC when they have been cascading others out?

The StreetDeck and StreetLite orders (the diesel ones) are the last of the current order. The remaining Ipswich examples (35915-26) have been delayed a bit from when originally expected - presumably as other deliveries to York and Potteries were prioritised. Both York and Potteries have got StreetDecks for University services, it should be noted.

BBP books have often had minor errors in them, but generally this is correct as far as I'm aware aside from the above.

They have got 6 short GB kites on order 48301-48306

 

[aswilliamsuk]

They have got 6 short GB kites on order 48301-48306

Aha! Thanks for confirming, I'd missed that!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Not sure about 34402, either - Glasgow have only bought EV for a while, so why would they have an additional E400 MMC when they have been cascading others out?

34402 is an insurance replacement for another E400MMC that was lost due to arson.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

34402 is an insurance replacement for another E400MMC that was lost due to arson.

Ah, that makes more sense now. Thanks.

 

[mic]

buses 37448 and 37454 have transferred from Oldham to Doncaster and Oldhams 37468 now has a SORN in place

 

[vla50]

buses 37448 and 37454 have transferred from Oldham to Doncaster and Oldhams 37468 now has a SORN in place

What will these replace?

 

[mic]

What will these replace?

my guess is E400s

 

[vla50]

my guess is E400s

Interesting. I have noticed 5 12 plated E400s at Olive Grove, and 5 E400s are needed in Somerset to replace their Gemini fleet. Perhaps that could be the reason?