First Group: General Discussion

[JD2168]

One of the problems I notice with e-leather on First buses is that it is rather torn with bits almost looking ripped off looking a real mess. On the X78 refurbished deckers the seat covers are red with blue flashes, whilst on the 20 Streetdecks which have been refurbished ex X1 Steel Link these have a seat of mainly blue with black flashes. The x78 & 20 batches have e- leather headrests with the X78 versions having phone chargers in the back of them.

Also in South Yorkshire a number of Streetlites are moving from Olive Grove to Doncaster replacing older Euro 3 B7RLE’s on 05/55/06/56 plate at this depot. B7RLE2 spec 69528 & 69530 have moved from Oldham to Olive Grove.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

@stevenedin hits the nail on the head:

Also there’s not any chance that you could accidentally sit on a wet seat without realising.

The question being are you sitting on wet water, wet cleaning fluid after an 'incident' or the wet incident itself.

 

[JonathanH]

@stevenedin hits the nail on the head:

The question being are you sitting on wet water, wet cleaning fluid after an 'incident' or the wet incident itself.

How often does that happen? Most people wouldn't notice a wet patch on a plank either because they expect to just sit down and don't look first.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is interesting to see this leather / moquette debate coming around again, ten years after First switched to leather (or whatever it actually is) for all deliveries.

Except First South West.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Except First South West.

They did switch for all deliveries in 2012 - the e400s 33658-67 were part of that. Just that by 2016/7, the rules had been relaxed so FSW (or First Devon and Cornwall as it had Ben) could specify moquette.

Of course, First West of England moved to have moquette for refurbs and then new vehicles but have now gone back to eLeather in 2022.

 

[Andyh82]

They did switch for all deliveries in 2012 - the e400s 33658-67 were part of that. Just that by 2016/7, the rules had been relaxed so FSW (or First Devon and Cornwall as it had Ben) could specify moquette.

Of course, First West of England moved to have moquette for refurbs and then new vehicles but have now gone back to eLeather in 2022.

That supports my theory that e-leather is the First standard and you have to have an MD putting a strong counter argument forward to change that

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That supports my theory that e-leather is the First standard and you have to have an MD putting a strong counter argument forward to change that

That might be the case but with so many variations, it might make some sense to have standardisation.

Was on a First Cymru Streetlite the other week with a line black/purple line moquette headrest

 

[Goldfish62]

Of course, First West of England moved to have moquette for refurbs and then new vehicles but have now gone back to eLeather in 2022.

Yes, I was disappointed that the Badgerline Streetdecks arrived with standard interiors. I'd like to have seen a Badgerline moquette!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, I was disappointed that the Badgerline Streetdecks arrived with standard interiors. I'd like to have seen a Badgerline moquette!

The black and purple would be a good national one. The red version that FSW has faded very quickly, as you say, even on 4 yr old e200mmcs.

I wasn’t so keen on First West of England and their blue and green moquette.

 

[Goldfish62]

The black and purple would be a good national one. The red version that FSW has faded very quickly, as you say, even on 4 yr old e200mmcs.

I wasn’t so keen on First West of England and their blue and green moquette.

Agreed re purple and black. It's very smart and seems to pass the "anti-fade test". Plus I think it would work with the original Barbie interior, the Olympia interior and any variants (such as those specified by FSW and WoE).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agreed re purple and black. It's very smart and seems to pass the "anti-fade test". Plus I think it would work with the original Barbie interior, the Olympia interior and any variants (such as those specified by FSW and WoE).

My thoughts entirely

 

[Markk1990]

They did switch for all deliveries in 2012 - the e400s 33658-67 were part of that. Just that by 2016/7, the rules had been relaxed so FSW (or First Devon and Cornwall as it had Ben) could specify moquette.

Of course, First West of England moved to have moquette for refurbs and then new vehicles but have now gone back to eLeather in 2022.

It was previously stated that the Streetdecks were an unplanned diversionary order so therefore likely wouldn’t have had the e-leather interior of things had gone to plan. Badgerline styling I’m not sure but at the minimum probably the current West of England moquette.

 

[ElBoiii]

It is interesting to see this leather / moquette debate coming around again, ten years after First switched to leather (or whatever it actually is) for all deliveries.

I have always been intrigued about the 1979 switch made by the National Bus Company to Autumn Gold moquette, that wasn't taken up by all companies. Presumably someone decided that people would prefer moquette at that time and that it might attract more passengers.

Come the leather change from 2012 and some First companies changed loads of older buses over whereas others didn't. Now at the stage where a large part of the fleet has leather seating the discussion above appears to indicate it is being reviewed again. It is interesting that some of the early operators to go to leather seating have reverted to moquette while others seem committed to keeping vinyl / leather seating. Guess it comes to personal taste of those in charge.

First South Yorkshire have been refurbishing buses with a simple blue and purple moquette. Just a dark blue background with blue and purple lines.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well my personal preference has always been and will always be forleather

 

[noddingdonkey]

@stevenedin hits the nail on the head:

The question being are you sitting on wet water, wet cleaning fluid after an 'incident' or the wet incident itself.

I'm not sure any of First West Yorkshire's fleet have seen either cleaning fluid or an interior refurb. The seats on the Geminis transferred from Leeds to Huddersfield recently are in a pretty disgusting state.

 

[Andyh82]

I'm not sure any of First West Yorkshire's fleet have seen either cleaning fluid or an interior refurb. The seats on the Geminis transferred from Leeds to Huddersfield recently are in a pretty disgusting state.

First West Yorks don’t seem to have an interior refurb program at all, even buses newly repainted in the new Bradford and Huddersfield liveries still keep their tired interiors. I think all they ever do is replace individual seat cushions if they are beyond repair

 

[Russel]

It was previously stated that the Streetdecks were an unplanned diversionary order so therefore likely wouldn’t have had the e-leather interior of things had gone to plan. Badgerline styling I’m not sure but at the minimum probably the current West of England moquette.

Where were the Streetdecks diverted from?

 

[318266]

Where were the Streetdecks diverted from?

Was it not Scotland East before that was carted off to McGill's?

 

[volvob12]

Where were the Streetdecks diverted from?

I’m not 100% on the numbers, but 20 or so were ordered for Weston and 7 or so were diverted from Weymouth. Then ex Bristol 65 plate E400MMCs were cascaded to Weymouth as replacements.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’m not 100% on the numbers, but 20 or so were ordered for Weston and 7 or so were diverted from Weymouth. Then ex Bristol 65 plate E400MMCs were cascaded to Weymouth as replacements.

I've heard this "diverted" statement before but without saying where they were diverted from. There's a few contradictory views and not clear if all 27 get diverted from X to Weston? Was it 20 from somewhere else and 7 from Wessex? Or was it that they were always destined for Weston and this is the first post James Freeman order from West of England and it's a reversion to the corporate norm?

There was a trial of a Streetdeck at Bridport (not surprisingly, they didn't pursue it) and I'd be surprised if they ordered vehicles for there and then do a trial.

 

[Volvodart]

I understood it was only the 7 that were diverted, the others were always coming. I think the order for the original ones may have been mentioned before the trial.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I understood it was only the 7 that were diverted, the others were always coming. I think the order for the original ones may have been mentioned before the trial.

In which case, the other 20 were always coming with standard interior and not the Freeman era moquette.

Personal opinion but I was never taken with that moquette nor the eLeather. The best is the black with purple bars that was used on First Worcester and a few other places IIRC

 

[volvob12]

In which case, the other 20 were always coming with standard interior and not the Freeman era moquette.

Personal opinion but I was never taken with that moquette nor the eLeather. The best is the black with purple bars that was used on First Worcester and a few other places IIRC

It made sense on the P&R with the blue and green triangles, elsewhere just seemed a bit random. It doesn’t really sit well with the barbie era interiors either.

 

[Simon75]

I know First has 2 garages in Norwich, but didn't they have 3 at one stage?

 

[Dfatcontroller]

I know First has 2 garages in Norwich, but didn't they have 3 at one stage?

You used to have the one at Norwich Bus Station, Roundtree Way and Vulcan Road.

 

[DD12]

Can anyone confirm that the new StreetDecks being delivered to First have the 4 cylinder engine rather than the 6, please ??

 

[90sWereBetter]

I know First has 2 garages in Norwich, but didn't they have 3 at one stage?

They did have three for a couple of years in the 2010s, Roundtree Way in Sprowston (the vast majority of Norwich area routes), Vulcan Road near Old Catton (primarily used for the 25/26 Blue Line fleet to the UEA and Norwich's turns on the Excel), and a parking facility at Lansdowne Road near the airport, which was only a temporary measure while Roundtree Way was rebuilt and expanded. Lansdowne Road closed in late 2016/early 2017 iirc.

Both of Norwich's depots are on the inner Norwich ring road to the north of the city, it's a fairly simple undertaking to transfer buses between depots.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Can anyone confirm that the new StreetDecks being delivered to First have the 4 cylinder engine rather than the 6, please ??

Indeed they're 4 cylinder.

 

[DD12]

Indeed they're 4 cylinder.

Thank you Jordan Adam ! -- First's current DD buying choices make an interesting comparison with Stagecoach's ( - 200 new E400Ds) !

Presumably FirstGroup have been convinced that the latest StreetDecks will be reliable and durable enough (?)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank you Jordan Adam ! -- First's current DD buying choices make an interesting comparison with Stagecoach's ( - 200 new E400Ds) !

Presumably FirstGroup have been convinced that the latest StreetDecks will be reliable and durable enough (?)

This was something that I covered on a recent travelogue. I had the experience of a number of First West of England's fleet - my local operator. They have gone back to Streetdecks for the Weston to Bristol services in 2022. I had one from Weston to Avonmouth - aside from the standard group interior, I thought it was decent. I do recall that Streetdecks didn't fair well on the Bristol to Street service over the Mendips though so there's concerns about the ability to cope with high speed running and hills.

Under James Freeman, that corner of First instead went for ADLs. There were standard diesel e400mmc (33951 et al) and they're fine. Then they bought some long wheelbase, low height dual door e400mmc on Scania N250UD chassis - think that was partly because of low height restriction on metrobus service m2. They squeak and creak like you wouldn't believe but seem to be reliable enough.

Then they bought some more Scanias but these are e400city vehicles on N280 chassis, powered by compressed natural gas. These arrived in late 2019/early 2020 (69/20 plates) and are mainly short wheelbase single door examples but there are some long wheelbase dual door versions. The built quality on these is appalling - this is a shot of the upstairs front n/s bulkhead; the bus was new in December 2019. In that respect, you can understand why the Streetdecks are being seen as more durable!!