First Group: General Discussion

[Bradley]

Thanks.

 

[Glenn1969]

I fear that if First back out Yorkshire Tiger may take on Halifax, Calder Valley and Huddersfield. They don't exactly have a great reputation for punctuality either

Who would take on Bradford and Leeds operations? TLC are surely not big enough for all of it. Transdev?

 

[winston270twm]

I fear that if First back out Yorkshire Tiger may take on Halifax, Calder Valley and Huddersfield. They don't exactly have a great reputation for punctuality either

Who would take on Bradford and Leeds operations? TLC are surely not big enough for all of it. Transdev?

Leeds is one of the 'Crown Jewels' i.e. big profit earners, doubt they'll be any shortage of interest there....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Eugh, pretty much everything First-related on Facebook, particularly on FirstBus Enthusiasts now has comments like "who's buying this" and "when's Stagecoach/NX/Arriva taking us over". So utterly tedious.

Exactly this. Not withstanding that we've already had the 2013 inspired speculation (see thread posts ad nauseum) of which most was absolute cobblers!

It's like some mathematical formula. Take First OpCo (A), and multiply by the sum of tenuous stuff about geography (B) and a bit of evidence about some other firms business strategy (C) = spurious guess on who "could be in the market (D).

Indeed, the SECOND post on this thread was wondering if Stagecoach might take part of First Cymru

 

[overthewater]

Is that how the local newspapers work? Im hoping we can find more out of this world piece.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is that how the local newspapers work? Im hoping we can find more out of this world piece.

Er yeah. Why? Do you honestly think that papers have journos with the level of insight required for a sector? Especially when papers are closing and for those that remain, much is actually being centralised?

 

[overthewater]

Not really but it does give a good laugh at the crap its gets published.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

It would be interesting to see what another company would have planned for a big city like Glasgow which has been dominated by First since 1996. Nowadays there is healthy competition from other operators like McGills, Stagecoach and Lanarkshire local operators. Even more interestingly FIG is currently in the mids of receiving a major fleet upgrade in favour of LEZ. If First Group sold their Glasgow operations it would be interesting to see how the new company continues on with this plan and also how it intends to run particular routes considering the last major changes were back in 2013 with the introduction of Simplicity.

In terms of fleet naturally it would be expected that a new company would keep all the new stock as some of it isn’t even a year old. Would it be refurbished into the new company corporate colours? Perhaps they’d move away from ADL and we may start to see Optare, Wright (returning), Volvo? Who knows. Interesting times ahead indeed.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It would be interesting to see what another company would have planned for a big city like Glasgow which has been dominated by First since 1996. Nowadays there is healthy competition from other operators like McGills, Stagecoach and Lanarkshire local operators. Even more interestingly FIG is currently in the mids of receiving a major fleet upgrade in favour of LEZ. If First Group sold their Glasgow operations it would be interesting to see how the new company continues on with this plan and also how it intends to run particular routes considering the last major changes were back in 2013 with the introduction of Simplicity.

In terms of fleet naturally it would be expected that a new company would keep all the new stock as some of it isn’t even a year old. Would it be refurbished into the new company corporate colours? Perhaps they’d move away from ADL and we may start to see Optare, Wright (returning), Volvo? Who knows. Interesting times ahead indeed.

I don't think much would change as the "middle level" management would stay much the same, obviously there would be changes at some point. But anyone expecting anything significant within the first year would probably be disappointed.

It would take a miracle to get any Metrodecker's in Glasgow... 5 years down the line (7 years since the concept was launched) and they're still yet to delivery any production models!

 

[Train man]

Does anyone know about the current situation regarding First bus in West Lothian are they staying put or would Lothian Country take over. Time will tell though.

 

[overthewater]

Current situation is there are staying put and well read this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-group-edinburgh-bus-tours.182521/

 

[GaryMcEwan]

One can only dream that a company like NX buy Glasgow and bring back Strathclyde's Buses back permanently...

Jesus Gary wake up...

 

[Galaxy]

Not sure on where talks are over at FSY, but the last I heard a strike over pay was imminent.

That won't be positive news for the opco.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not sure on where talks are over at FSY, but the last I heard a strike over pay was imminent.

That won't be positive news for the opco.

Perhaps if those on high took more of a pride in the presentation of the fleet the staff might believe that someone actually cared about the operation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Perhaps if those on high took more of a pride in the presentation of the fleet the staff might believe that someone actually cared about the operation.

Really sharp contrast between FSY and Stagecoach Yorkshire (and the latter isn't the most exciting firm in the world). Agree that FSY just seems unloved. Forget stupid things that gricers like (such as repainting a vehicle into Mainline or Doncaster Corpy colours) - focus on quality and service delivery, properly clean vehicles internally and externally, get rid of the B10BLEs and B7Ls and the aged deckers that still dominate Donny, sort out the complex interworking that destroys service reliability and then adopt a strong modern identity.

That said, strikes don't benefit anyone. I did shake my head at the union official who said "First Group is a highly profitable company. The losses at First South Yorkshire are only paper losses and have been reducing year on year due to the hard work and dedication of Unite’s members." - no such thing as paper losses (does he think it's some tax avoidance scheme?) and if they're not important, why point out that they've been reducing?

 

[DragonEast]

I can understand the speculation.

Of course buses have to be a viable business. That's obvious. I've compared it previously to learning to walk. It's wonderful to see a toddler take its first step, and unless it does it won't go anywhere. But it's what you do with that ability that matters. That's what the speculation is about. First (and of course it's the exceptions that prove the rule, as always) have failed too often to make the best of what they have. (And by the way, don't the Board and top management have a role in setting the standard and pro-actively delivering support where it is necessary; in more than just fine words?)

The simple truth is that buses are a necessity (unfortunately perhaps, even if we'd rather they weren't), so someone, somewhere, can always make a business out of them. First and Arriva seem to have chosen not to. Fair enough. Some purchasers can extract value, not necessarily the same as running a decent bus service. Again fair enough. But if passengers are concerned about and want to speculate on who, eventually, will "save" (and I do mean "enhance" in many cases) their buses then I, for one, don't blame them. It's not an irrelevance (unless of course I put my blinkers on and choose to make it one). As a bus operator, I wouldn't be ashamed of passengers who care about "their" buses. I would even like it.

I really can't see either what is the problem with the local press coverage. It rehashes the First press release. Which surely is basically all we can do at this stage?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I did shake my head at the union official who said "First Group is a highly profitable company. The losses at First South Yorkshire are only paper losses and have been reducing year on year due to the hard work and dedication of Unite’s members." - no such thing as paper losses (does he think it's some tax avoidance scheme?) and if they're not important, why point out that they've been reducing?

Union inspired rhetoric over actual reality?

 

[tbtc]

Really sharp contrast between FSY and Stagecoach Yorkshire (and the latter isn't the most exciting firm in the world). Agree that FSY just seems unloved. Forget stupid things that gricers like (such as repainting a vehicle into Mainline or Doncaster Corpy colours) - focus on quality and service delivery, properly clean vehicles internally and externally, get rid of the B10BLEs and B7Ls and the aged deckers that still dominate Donny, sort out the complex interworking that destroys service reliability and then adopt a strong modern identity

Living in Sheffield, it's easy to forget how much nicer things can be elsewhere, but it was sobering to see that the Magicbus E400s that Stagecoach Manchester loaned to Ecclesfield (to cover the increased number of buses required, due to Supertram replacement due to maintenance works) were *younger* than many of the double deckers First put on most main Sheffield routes.

I remember when Magicbus was a dumping ground to squeeze another couple of years of life out of buses that'd have otherwise been scrapped - now I find that they are running 57-plate low floor double deckers that are younger than the buses First put on most of their double deck routes (the X1, 1a, 56 and 120 are generally dominated by 14/65/18 plate buses but most other double decker Sheffield routes see an assortment of 06/07/57/08 reg Geminis (if not the older Presidents/ ALX400s).

As for the threat of strikes, it may be simplistic to say that First SY never bounced back from the strike around fifteen years ago, but there's some truth in it - we used to get a decent share of the new buses etc but it took the operation a long time to recover from the strike - I don't think SY has been a "top table" operation ever since then. Hopefully any new strikes can be avoided but I don't know if the operation will be able to survive much more loss (especially as, this time round, unlike fifteen years ago, Stagecoach are going to be able to flood routes with loaned buses and potentially retain passengers).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I can understand the speculation.

Of course buses have to be a viable business. That's obvious. I've compared it previously to learning to walk. It's wonderful to see a toddler take its first step, and unless it does it won't go anywhere. But it's what you do with that ability that matters. That's what the speculation is about. First (and of course it's the exceptions that prove the rule, as always) have failed too often to make the best of what they have. (And by the way, don't the Board and top management have a role in setting the standard and pro-actively delivering support where it is necessary; in more than just fine words?)

The simple truth is that buses are a necessity (unfortunately perhaps, even if we'd rather they weren't), so someone, somewhere, can always make a business out of them. First and Arriva seem to have chosen not to. Fair enough. Some purchasers can extract value, not necessarily the same as running a decent bus service. Again fair enough. But if passengers are concerned about and want to speculate on who, eventually, will "save" (and I do mean "enhance" in many cases) their buses then I, for one, don't blame them. It's not an irrelevance (unless of course I put my blinkers on and choose to make it one). As a bus operator, I wouldn't be ashamed of passengers who care about "their" buses. I would even like it.

I really can't see either what is the problem with the local press coverage. It rehashes the First press release. Which surely is basically all we can do at this stage?

I can understand passengers wanting to know and that the press will naturally want to cover the story. That's fine and they will look to create a local angle. Perhaps the issue is people are trying to draw conclusions from whatever the local rag are saying when, in reality, the press release is all they have.

As for enthusiast speculation, it is usually unfounded. Let's have a look at page 1 (#1-30) on this thread from 2012...

That said if First do sell the south wales operations I expect Stagecoach to take the opportunity to take over the operation in Bridgend and Neath Valley both of which are within easy acess to the main depots in Porth or Aberdare/Cwmbach
Elsewhere, I think we safely say that Northampton are on the hit-list.
I wonder if more First operations in West Yorkshire will finish up being Centrebus operations.
please have First GM Buses North be broken up and sold off to JPT, Maytree and South Lancs Travel
If an area doesn't have or aren't getting new ticket machines, then maybe that area is intended to be sold off. First Manchester installed their new ticket machines in February, which replaced machines that were only a few years old. On the other hand, I went to Fareham on Saturday and they were still using old Wayfarer 3 machines.
I have heard talk that the following areas are the most likely area to get sold off are:
* Edinburgh (Dalkeith had just closed)
* York
* Northampton
* Chester
The speculation does make me wonder about York
Defo must be something in the roomers Livi's going plus another FSE Depot.
No, I believe there will keep hold of Glasgow, Aberdeen and die trying to retain Scotrail... while the rest of FSE will probley get sold.


So aside from Northampton closing (that was pretty obvious) and the Musselburgh following Dalkeith plus Chester being sold... Fareham wasn't sold, GM wasn't sold to firms, Centrebus didn't expand by buying FWY but was bought by Arriva, FSE didn't get sold, York didn't get sold and they didn't sell bits of Wales!!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember when Magicbus was a dumping ground to squeeze another couple of years of life out of buses that'd have otherwise been scrapped - now I find that they are running 57-plate low floor double deckers that are younger than the buses First put on most of their double deck routes (the X1, 1a, 56 and 120 are generally dominated by 14/65/18 plate buses but most other double decker Sheffield routes see an assortment of 06/07/57/08 reg Geminis (if not the older Presidents/ ALX400s).

Magic Bus has sort of changed roles. It started life as "kill the competitors on the cheap by price-dumping fares" - it's long been realised that actually it is a good way to differentiate markets and is more like VT vs. LNR on the WCML - both are viable in their own market - and so even if all the competition went off say the Oxford Road corridor it might well stay.

 

[Galaxy]

It is true that FSY does have the impression of being rather unloved, especially over in Doncaster where it seems they go through the motions somewhat, which is reflective in the offering. This then feeds down through the whole of the company and does very little to make the bus an attractive proposition to current users, let alone getting people out of their cars.

South Yorkshire desperately needs for First to make a fist of it and bring it up to something decent, or sell it on and let someone else have a try. The status quo at present doesn't afford anything substantial and needs to go.

 

[Robertj21a]

As we often mention, most of the First operations in the UK have been available , for others to buy, for some years now - FSY was certainly included as it's been a loss maker for some time.
Needless to say, nobody has come forward to take it on. I guess that's a combination of the Stagecoach presence, coupled with how much First would accept for it, and how much more would need to be invested to sort it out.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As we often mention, most of the First operations in the UK have been available , for others to buy, for some years now - FSY was certainly included as it's been a loss maker for some time.
Needless to say, nobody has come forward to take it on. I guess that's a combination of the Stagecoach presence, coupled with how much First would accept for it, and how much more would need to be invested to sort it out.

Not made a profit since 2012! The hope was (I think) that with the various bus partnerships and the closure of Rotherham depot, that would staunch the losses.

 

[DunsBus]

I can understand passengers wanting to know and that the press will naturally want to cover the story. That's fine and they will look to create a local angle. Perhaps the issue is people are trying to draw conclusions from whatever the local rag are saying when, in reality, the press release is all they have.

As for enthusiast speculation, it is usually unfounded. Let's have a look at page 1 (#1-30) on this thread from 2012...

That said if First do sell the south wales operations I expect Stagecoach to take the opportunity to take over the operation in Bridgend and Neath Valley both of which are within easy acess to the main depots in Porth or Aberdare/Cwmbach
Elsewhere, I think we safely say that Northampton are on the hit-list.
I wonder if more First operations in West Yorkshire will finish up being Centrebus operations.
please have First GM Buses North be broken up and sold off to JPT, Maytree and South Lancs Travel
If an area doesn't have or aren't getting new ticket machines, then maybe that area is intended to be sold off. First Manchester installed their new ticket machines in February, which replaced machines that were only a few years old. On the other hand, I went to Fareham on Saturday and they were still using old Wayfarer 3 machines.
I have heard talk that the following areas are the most likely area to get sold off are:
* Edinburgh (Dalkeith had just closed)
* York
* Northampton
* Chester
The speculation does make me wonder about York
Defo must be something in the roomers Livi's going plus another FSE Depot.
No, I believe there will keep hold of Glasgow, Aberdeen and die trying to retain Scotrail... while the rest of FSE will probley get sold.


So aside from Northampton closing (that was pretty obvious) and the Musselburgh following Dalkeith plus Chester being sold... Fareham wasn't sold, GM wasn't sold to firms, Centrebus didn't expand by buying FWY but was bought by Arriva, FSE didn't get sold, York didn't get sold and they didn't sell bits of Wales!!!!

That said, part of FSE did get sold - the Borders operations and Galashiels depot to West Coast Motors, in March 2017.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That said, part of FSE did get sold - the Borders operations and Galashiels depot to West Coast Motors, in March 2017.

That's part of the problem - there is a chance that something will come to pass eventually and it can be pointed out they were right all along. Sure, it took five years but they knew....

 

[ivanhoe]

Not made a profit since 2012! The hope was (I think) that with the various bus partnerships and the closure of Rotherham depot, that would staunch the losses.

You'd think that this area should be profitable, given size of City alone. Understand the tram situation but surprised to hear that it's not been profitable since 2012.

 

[Andyh82]

I fear that if First back out Yorkshire Tiger may take on Halifax, Calder Valley and Huddersfield. They don't exactly have a great reputation for punctuality either

Who would take on Bradford and Leeds operations? TLC are surely not big enough for all of it. Transdev?

Some suggestions are very silly but these take the biscuit. A bit like suggesting that if your local Tesco Extra was to close, maybe Mr Smith who runs the corner shop might be interested.

I hope this all gets sorted quickly, as I'm already tired of any bus or train thread that mentions First or Arriva descending into suggestions of who is buying each operator.

 

[Glenn1969]

We got Yorkshire Tiger in the first place because Stagecoach didn't want Huddersfield when they bought Barnsley. As Tiger is now wholly owned by Arriva they could easily take on First's Halifax and Huddesrfield operations

 

[overthewater]

Its all by n by of being of enthusiast speculation, As they say, All truth have rumors in them, no rumors have any truths I still think the local papers are writing some utter rubbish, like " It means two new operators could soon be behind the majority of buses serving passengers in Essex." where is this coming from the essex press????

Three of the the four bulleit points were correct, and on top of that I do still believe talks were held about other parts of company but fell thought, just like the 11th hour sell of another Manchester depot recently. It's also possible the current talks could all collapse aswell and nothing is sold off and we end up with a new ukbus holding company.

You should have looked on Page 40 or 45

* Redditch and Kidderminster to be sold off, that happened.
* London Depot I did say London, someone saw it coming.

Of course Cornwall never run away and got the investment instead.. we all know why. Leicester even with its strange share holding also managed to stay the course, It's tricky situation with First not controlling 100% even if someone came along with bag of money would wellgade want to give up its share? First Glasgow No2 has been a success story here, going from big losses to making mega bucks and getting strong fleet investment, you have to wonder what it did to create such a turn around? Traffic is still awful and competition is still around.

Berkshire, well it's been gutted to the core compared to 2012, are the operations even worthwhile, especial with Reading buses knocking at the door, it not managed to retain much instead losing work left right and centre.
Ipswich has managed to carry on but only managed to do it really with castoffs, when was it last big new bus order?

I will give it to you - As you would say throw enough darts and you're sure to get five right, as i said then never did believe South Wales rumors

 

[richw]

It's also possible the current talks could all collapse aswell and nothing is sold off and we end up with a new ukbus holding company.

This is my interpretation of the use of the word “separation” in the original statement