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First Group: General Discussion

TheGrandWazoo

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We got Yorkshire Tiger in the first place because Stagecoach didn't want Huddersfield when they bought Barnsley. As Tiger is now wholly owned by Arriva they could easily take on First's Halifax and Huddesrfield operations
However....aren't DB trying to sell Arriva? Also, given that it would essentially provide a big new monopoly across Kirklees, Calderdale and Wakefield, it would certainly attract the CMA's attention so doubt they could easily take it on.

I hope this all gets sorted quickly, as I'm already tired of any bus or train thread that mentions First or Arriva descending into suggestions of who is buying each operator.
Bang on!

You'd think that this area should be profitable, given size of City alone. Understand the tram situation but surprised to hear that it's not been profitable since 2012.
Again, it's that old thing of sins of the past - they had a decent business and didn't invest and it's been damaged. Unfortunately, it seems like the management are unable to break the cycle of poor service delivery (or so it appears) and that's not helped by the downturn in places like Rotherham and Donny. Stagecoach do manage to turn a profit but then again, it's a lot lower than you might expect - Lincolnshire returns a better margin!
 
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richw

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Maybe the end goal is, if all else fails. Who would buy into this new company?

Depends how much the initial share offerings are I guess. If they’re low enough with potential for gain then they’d be quite popular I’d imagine under a IPO
 

overthewater

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If I was a current shareholder in First and the uk bus was spun off, how much of an impact would that have on the current share?
 

duncombec

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I hope this all gets sorted quickly, as I'm already tired of any bus or train thread that mentions First or Arriva descending into suggestions of who is buying each operator.

You mean there won't be any takers for my convoluted theory as to how Arriva is going to be sold OpCo-by-OpCo, but only to the European trading arms of fellow state-owned rail operators, and First group is going to be sold en-bloc to a consortium labelled Virgin, but in reality a 50/50 split between Stagecoach and Abellio, purely to give Chris Grayling the proverbial finger? I'll have to find some other forum now...
 

Volvodart

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Not made a profit since 2012! The hope was (I think) that with the various bus partnerships and the closure of Rotherham depot, that would staunch the losses.

Unsure if it is true, but it has been claimed that First pay more than their competitors there, which would be a factor if this has never been sorted out.
 

DragonEast

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OK let's throw a spanner in the works.

I suspect the problems for Arriva and First are far more than an accounting problem. Underlying it all (as in retail) is the problem:

1. The big bus companies (and many of their OpCos) are simply too large, bureaucratic and inflexible to offer a customer service that can compete with their medium and small-sized counterparts. This matters to the modern consumer who is becoming more and more like our grandparents, who sought more of a personal relationship with their providers. In my own area I can compare First and Arriva (and Stagecoach and Go-Ahead too) with any of Ensign, Uno, Metrobus small CountryBus operation, Borderbus, Lynx and and upteen "small" traditional operators. The comparison is distinctly unfavourable, and it shows on profitability too. Arriva and First haven't lacked for want of trying, they haven't the patience and simply can't compete on service. Which, sorry, is what matters to the passengers; even though not to the accountants.

Stagecoach have managed to stem this with a long-established regime that is designed to ensure staff do as they are told, but are supported when they need it. However, as it looks with Stagecoach East they are struggling to hold the line in some areas. Go-Ahead try to replicate the "small operator" ethos in their local businesses, with mixed results. In East Anglia it has generally been thought to have been a disaster, but perhaps they are now getting their act together? It isn't that Stagecoach and Go-Ahead don't make mistakes, they do as much an anyone else; but they know when to give up, even when it makes them unpopular.

And, yes all operators are a patchwork quilt, better in some areas than others, and it MAY be different in some of the Mets. But, in general, in our fragmented bus world, big's economies of scale are no longer the big benefit they once were. The dinosaurs simply can't adapt.

2. In Britain's Look after No. 1 and I'm all right Jack culture, it is often virtually impossible to get drivers (or management, frankly) who care a hoot about the passengers. They just want to get through to the end of the shift and pick up their pay cheque, with as little hassle as possible (not a criticism, I'd be the same with modern traffic conditions). Again, nothing new and different over the country; some areas are better at customer service and some, the south-east, have always been hopeless in virtually every field of endeavour (though it even used to differ sometimes between neighbouring towns, seemingly dependent on their migrant history!) The good staff will migrate, as they have been doing for decades. Which is of course where we started.

3 [NEW] I suspect both First and Arriva were too slow to cut staff (in common with many employers) and then tended to do so in a ham fisted way when they panicked. The pensions iceberg is one that we have known is coming for a long time. As an aside, and purely from observation, may be the Arriva pension fund is in a worse position?

If this all sounds reminiscent of NBC, it is. And, with probably, the same solution too.
 
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DragonEast

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Berkshire, well it's been gutted to the core compared to 2012, are the operations even worthwhile, especial with Reading buses knocking at the door, it not managed to retain much instead losing work left right and centre.
Ipswich has managed to carry on but only managed to do it really with castoffs, when was it last big new bus order?
Both seem to me to play to their strengths as medium-sized operations; not being hung up on the past or biting off more than they can chew, which seems to be so often the bane of the industry. So, kudos. Heathrow isn't going anywhere (presumably unless Boris gets his way), and Ipswich present well with the best of the bad job that has always been Suffolk country buses. They've both successfully ditched their problem routes, something it's a pity a few of their larger brethren couldn't learn from.
 

buslad1988

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Both seem to me to play to their strengths as medium-sized operations; not being hung up on the past or biting off more than they can chew, which seems to be so often the bane of the industry. So, kudos. Heathrow isn't going anywhere (presumably unless Boris gets his way), and Ipswich present well with the best of the bad job that has always been Suffolk country buses. They've both successfully ditched their problem routes, something it's a pity a few of their larger brethren couldn't learn from.

To be fair First in Ipswich is actually a profitable operation - even more so with the Park & Ride and this was reflected in last years company accounts.

Unfortunately though this doesn’t equate to fleet investment for other services so there are still a significant number of 53 plate Volvo B7TL’s knocking about.

Whilst the entire Ipswich allocation is wi-fi equipt and leather seated a full repaint programme has now started (Ipswich reds) although a formal launch has yet to take place.

There probably is some scope for gradual expansion back into old territory with many of the independents they gave into back in the early 2000’s now falling by the wayside (ala Norwich). Ipswich Buses themselves also are not the mighty company they once were and have taken a knocking in recent years since the long standing MD retired.

It’s a shame Ipswich is cut off from the other FEC ops but realistically it’s not feasible to re-introduce old links. Bolting it on to Essex (which was rumoured in the past) is also not a good idea as it could drag it down into their bad habits and reputation.
 

cactustwirly

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Berkshire, well it's been gutted to the core compared to 2012, are the operations even worthwhile, especial with Reading buses knocking at the door, it not managed to retain much instead losing work left right and centre.
Ipswich has managed to carry on but only managed to do it really with castoffs, when was it last big new bus order?

"Gutted to the core" is a massive overstatement.
They got rid of Bracknell because it wasn't viable.
But they still have a comprehensive and profitable route network in Slough and Heathrow
 

winston270twm

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"Gutted to the core" is a massive overstatement.
They got rid of Bracknell because it wasn't viable.
But they still have a comprehensive and profitable route network in Slough and Heathrow

Bracknell wasn't viable under First, however, Reading Buses wasted no time jumping in to replace various routes withdrawn by First Berkshire & seem to be doing better with them.
 
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carlberry

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Bracknell wasn't viable under First, however, Reading Buses wasted no time in jumping in to replace various routes withdrawn by First Berkshire & seem to be doing better with them.
They've only got the main road route to Reading haven't they? And they don't need a Bracknell depot for that which reduces costs.
 

cactustwirly

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Bracknell wasn't viable under First, however, Reading Buses wasted no time in jumping in to replace various routes withdrawn by First Berkshire & seem to be doing better with them.

It was the local routes round Bracknell that were the loss makers, these are now with Courtney and mostly council subsidised routes.
The 90 was profitable AFAIK, but didn't justify. Bracknell depot on its own
 

winston270twm

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It was the local routes round Bracknell that were the loss makers, these are now with Courtney and mostly council subsidised routes.
The 90 was profitable AFAIK, but didn't justify. Bracknell depot on its own

Don't forget the 'Thames Valley' branded routes taken over from First & also Greenline 702/703.
 

DragonEast

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The Green Line brand is an interesting case. It's a ghost of its former self, going from ubiquituous across the Home Counties, to a few services (mostly) clinging on by the skin of their teeth, mostly thanks to Arriva (who own the brand), and despite the periodic efforts of various operators to revive services (unsuccessfully) from time to time . I'm surprised the 702/3 has survived for so long, though is it really surprising that Reading Buses can make an investment case when First can't? It's comparing chalk and cheese; First have many other responsibilities across the nation, and even locally with 24 hour Heathrow Services, even RailAir.

Similarly in Essex where I believe Ensign are starting a service between Thurrock and Heathrow. Maybe it has a good chance of success, where other operators wouldn't; but only becase it has an operator who is careful what they do, and even more careful what they don't. The big boys often can't afford to be so choosy. Why? Politics, usually. There is a lot of arm-twisting in this game; and maybe if private equity get involved, even more!
 

Goldfish62

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It was the local routes round Bracknell that were the loss makers, these are now with Courtney and mostly council subsidised routes.
The 90 was profitable AFAIK, but didn't justify. Bracknell depot on its own
There was also the issue that Courtney launched predatory competition on all of First's commercial routes south of the town centre. Courtney even saw off Stagecoach when they tried to compete on the 194!
 

Stan Drews

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Everyone seems to be forgetting that First UK Bus made a 7.5% profit margin, at the last count (I think!). Many of the larger European based groups would be delighted with those sorts of operating margins, so depending on the asking price, I see no reason to think there wouldn’t be some interest. It is probably the pension issue that is likely to see the greatest amount of discussion in any negotiations.
 

DragonEast

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It’s a shame Ipswich is cut off from the other FEC ops but realistically it’s not feasible to re-introduce old links. Bolting it on to Essex (which was rumoured in the past) is also not a good idea as it could drag it down into their bad habits and reputation.
Not just that; but may be what scuppered it too is the significantly higher wages paid historically by the Essex OpCo. It might dent the profitability (which is often marginal), though I don't know just by how much.

Just wondering how much these "hidden" self-imposed costs afflict First (and First Berkshire too, and wasn't there an issue around Yeovil and Weymouth a few years back as well as, perhaps, FSY) and whether FirstBus seem to be less willing or able to tackle them? Though, perhaps, given past history, it might again be a case of "once bitten, twice shy"?
 

winston270twm

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Everyone seems to be forgetting that First UK Bus made a 7.5% profit margin, at the last count (I think!). Many of the larger European based groups would be delighted with those sorts of operating margins, so depending on the asking price, I see no reason to think there wouldn’t be some interest. It is probably the pension issue that is likely to see the greatest amount of discussion in any negotiations.

A 7.5% First UK Bus margin is nothing to shout home about, if it's considered that good, then why are First Group planning to hive off the UK Ops to focus on the US where there is richer pickings..... There's also the pension blackhole & what proportion of First Group Plc debt the UK arm may be lumbered with to consider. Also, any buyer would also need to allow for a fair bit of capex to improve the age profile / internal presentation of various UK fleets and allow newer cascades in to the poorer performing ops, a number have had little of no investment for years.
 

DragonEast

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Everyone seems to be forgetting that First UK Bus made a 7.5% profit margin, at the last count (I think!). Many of the larger European based groups would be delighted with those sorts of operating margins, so depending on the asking price, I see no reason to think there wouldn’t be some interest. It is probably the pension issue that is likely to see the greatest amount of discussion in any negotiations.
Of course. They can sell, I'm sure, and it's a point well-made by First as they seek to instill confidence; but I assume it doesn't mean that everything can just be left "as is" for ever. I would think that both First and Arriva have looked at the future, and that's where the problems lie, on top of the ongoing pension liabilities. But to give First fair credit, if the First swallow does indeed indicate the arrival of summer who's going to complain?

As an aside, am I right to think that the PPF won't bail out a pension fund for a going concern, but with a Fund it might depend on the degree of hardball they're prepared to play?
I think so often finding a buyer isn't the hard bit, but it's what comes afterwards when they do their due diligence.

The ship can be sailing serenely (as indeed it has more or less for the last decade), but it doesn't necessarily mean the hull is in great shape, or even perhaps the sea is free of icebergs.
 
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Goldfish62

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Everyone seems to be forgetting that First UK Bus made a 7.5% profit margin, at the last count (I think!). Many of the larger European based groups would be delighted with those sorts of operating margins, so depending on the asking price, I see no reason to think there wouldn’t be some interest. It is probably the pension issue that is likely to see the greatest amount of discussion in any negotiations.
Pensions are also a massive issue with the Arriva sale.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Before people get too fixated on pensions (but recognising that it is an issue), there are various ways in which it can be treated (as has been the case with First Greater Manchester). Obviously, the liability can remain with First on an ongoing basis, or they can crystalise it (doesn't get any worse) and the new owner has the issue from day 1 or they can offload totally by offering a substantial dowry. As ever, sale prices will reflect this.

Also, it is true that 7.5% margin isn't exceptional but the fact is that the margins are heading in the right direction. It will still be an attractive purchase on a cash generative basis as a whole and certain OpCos specifically. Whilst the need to upgrade the fleet is there, that is beginning to unwind a little - yes, there are too many W and X reg deckers still chugging away (but not for much longer) but they are now beginning to cull 2002/2003 Tridents across the UK and the B7Ls are now getting addressed too.
 

Bletchleyite

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First has always classically aimed for margins of 10-12%, hasn't it? But smaller operators are happy with those lower figures, so may well consider a purchase (or just call First's bluff, let them withdraw and register your own routes).
 

lastbus

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First has always classically aimed for margins of 10-12%, hasn't it? But smaller operators are happy with those lower figures, so may well consider a purchase (or just call First's bluff, let them withdraw and register your own routes).
First are not just going to withdraw. You have to bear in mind a sale is only one of the options they are looking at. They will not sell unless they get what they are after for the business or parts of it.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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First are not just going to withdraw. You have to bear in mind a sale is only one of the options they are looking at. They will not sell unless they get what they are after for the business or parts of it.
If they withdraw, they get stuck with the goodwill write off and all the exit liabilities. As we saw with Plymouth, they won't simply withdraw.
 

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