First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

The Evening Standard has an article on the bid to take over First Group.

Commuters into Waterloo might be pleased the operator of South Western Railway has flicked the Vs at a takeover by Apollo. It’s hard to see how a get-rich-quick US private-equity giant can make matters better for customers at FirstGroup, whose fast commuter services have missed punctuality targets by nearly 9% in the past year.

Shareholders, though, may take another view. For them, Apollo’s cash must come as a relief.

FirstGroup’s share price has been bombed out for months, even falling below the 85p level at which it priced an emergency fundraiser in 2013. For good reason.

https://www.standard.co.uk/business...-commuters-need-apollo-on-board-a3812686.html

 

[Anthony ross]

i cant see abellio doing anything they seem far more interested in running railway companies than they do bus firms

 

[Volvodart]

The new deal just saw the working day reduced by 15 minutes along with a pay increase.

As I understand it, that is 15 minutes off either a 10 or 12 hour day depending if you opt to work 5 or 4 days (if you include breaks).

 

[johnw]

Look at Northampton to see how Stagecoach do things better.....

 

[Adlington]

deleted

 

[overthewater]

Your two days late with that news..

 

[winston270twm]

Look at Northampton to see how Stagecoach do things better.....

And Plymouth.

 

[CD]

And Plymouth.

Not forgetting North Devon.

 

[Kahuna47]

Pretty much anywhere First are in competition with anyone!

 

[overthewater]

First group Share price:

* 26th March: 77p
* Today 13th April: 112.40p

One thing is for sure that price will go up some more before the end of the month, then its stick or sale!

 

[Lezlee]

I’ve heard on the grape vine that the Bus Customer Services based in Norwich are all being made redundant, with the work being taken on in Leeds.

Norwich primarily cover the south of England: Midlands, Eastern Counties, Essex, West Of England, Somerset, Hants/Dorset/Berks, Cornwall. Not sure how the Manchester customer service office is effected.

First have been building a 'customer services shared service' since the beginning of the year. All customer service operations across the UK are planned to be operated from a central hub in Leeds, so staff in both Norwich and Scotland will be affected by the changes. Northern England customer services have already moved to the new hub.

 

[overthewater]

What Scottish Staff? there were no main twitter staff in Scotland, it was all depot/existing staff. This will not change since there will still be able to push out updates etc.

 

[Lezlee]

What Scottish Staff? there were no main twitter staff in Scotland, it was all depot/existing staff. This will not change since there will still be able to push out updates etc.

I lifted the key information (without the platitudes) from an internal article, so i'm only going on what was written there. The article is about the customer service function, no mention was made about the social media function, so whether or not that will be managed locally, regionally or nationally remains to be seen.

 

[overthewater]

Strange, since most of the twitter service was down doon south.

 

[Volvodart]

The hours worked in this job are the Twitter operating hours:-

https://uk.firstgroupcareers.com/va...uk-bus---leeds-hunslet-park/6790/description/

 

[transportphoto]

What Scottish Staff? there were no main twitter staff in Scotland, it was all depot/existing staff. This will not change since there will still be able to push out updates etc.

Scotland East and Aberdeen Twitter feeds are/were largely managed from Norwich by the same team who look after South Of England.

 

[317 forever]

Or routes such as Apollo 13?

Adam Ant would prefer to see a route promoted as Apollo 9.

 

[317 forever]

It's more likley there do the dirty and have fours pots

* UK BUS - landed with good amount of debt.
* Greyhound
* Student Transit
* Rail.

This asset stripper not going to go around wasting it time selling of individual depots or operations, there just dump the whole of UK bus to someone else and make them cut it into pieces.... Mind you there could have two UK bus lots.

Once you add the shareholder value (ca £1.3bn) and debt (ca £2bn) Apollo must anticipate plenty of profit from any operations they keep, and from any onward disposals.

I think Apollo would keep Greyhound and Student Transit.

Changes to ownership of rail franchises require government approval. If the DfT have concerns against approving this change, they may take the franchises back and offer them for retender.

It would certainly take time if Apollo attempted to dispose of First UK bus piecemeal. Maybe it could instead be sold as a single going concern to National Express, Comfort DelGro or RATP? I doubt Rotala could afford it. I doubt Transdev would be interested as they are more selective in their limited routes across the country. Likewise I would rule out Abellio. They only seem interested in franchises / tenders having largely pulled out of bus operations in Surrey.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It would certainly take time if Apollo attempted to dispose of First UK bus piecemeal. Maybe it could instead be sold as a single going concern to National Express, Comfort DelGro or RATP? I doubt Rotala could afford it. I doubt Transdev would be interested as they are more selective in their limited routes across the country. Likewise I would rule out Abellio. They only seem interested in franchises / tenders having largely pulled out of bus operations in Surrey.

In Scotland it would be nice to see Craig Group and McGills take some stuff rather than Stagecoach which are very hit and miss here! Cough Cough Inverness Cough Cough. National Express do seem to somewhat neglect Dundee, Their newest full size buses currently are 6 years old! They do have a few short wheel forward Streetlites new in 2015 but i believe these are on lease.

I can't see Arriva coming back to Scotland, and if they do they'll just consistently arriva late.

 

[overthewater]

UK bus will most likley be sold as a going concern but in lumps or clumps. IE there would be 5 lots around certain areas, but theor could ask if anyone is interested in certain parts to come forward, to see if there might make more money. Its all about the money!

I doubt there would keep both Greyhound and Student Transit. I can't see how their can dump alot of the debt within its group or UK BUS...

 

[winston270twm]

In Scotland it would be nice to see Craig Group and McGills take some stuff rather than Stagecoach which are very hit and miss here! Cough Cough Inverness Cough Cough. National Express do seem to somewhat neglect Dundee, Their newest full size buses currently are 6 years old! They do have a few short wheel forward Streetlites new in 2015 but i believe these are on lease.

I can't see Arriva coming back to Scotland, and if they do they'll just consistently arriva late.

Dundee are due 10 x E400MMC's to replace the remaining Presidents this year, also Dundee isn't contributing the profits to group it used too & focus has been on NXWM due to minimum emission requirements in certain areas as part of their Statutory Quality Partnership with TfWM commitments. Even NXWM only had 38 new buses during 2017.

I'd expect NX Group to be interested in First UK Bus subsidiaries that were up for grabs, especially any that shared similar operating characteristics to NXWM i.e. large urban area / former PTE area / scale etc

Additionally:
Watchdog probes FirstGroup share price rise before takeover bid
https://www.ft.com/content/80b29126-3f14-11e8-b7e0-52972418fec4

 

[overthewater]

Link does not work or can you please Quote as per the forum rules

 

[Robertj21a]

Once you add the shareholder value (ca £1.3bn) and debt (ca £2bn) Apollo must anticipate plenty of profit from any operations they keep, and from any onward disposals.

I think Apollo would keep Greyhound and Student Transit.

Changes to ownership of rail franchises require government approval. If the DfT have concerns against approving this change, they may take the franchises back and offer them for retender.

It would certainly take time if Apollo attempted to dispose of First UK bus piecemeal. Maybe it could instead be sold as a single going concern to National Express, Comfort DelGro or RATP? I doubt Rotala could afford it. I doubt Transdev would be interested as they are more selective in their limited routes across the country. Likewise I would rule out Abellio. They only seem interested in franchises / tenders having largely pulled out of bus operations in Surrey.

I can't see any of those wanting to buy First UK Bus in its entirety, the risk is too great given that only a few of their operations make a significant profit.

 

[Volvodart]

If it was bought in its entirety, would that mean taking on the pension deficit? If that was the case no one would consider it. Apollo may not want rail anyway, if the reason for the low share price is correct, and First will have to start paying money soon because the growth is not in accordance with the franchise agreements. I would imagine if Apollo were to be successful, they will need to do something about the UK bus pension deficit and the effect on it if they are to start selling individual bus companies.

 

[Mwanesh]

Once you add the shareholder value (ca £1.3bn) and debt (ca £2bn) Apollo must anticipate plenty of profit from any operations they keep, and from any onward disposals.

I think Apollo would keep Greyhound and Student Transit.

Changes to ownership of rail franchises require government approval. If the DfT have concerns against approving this change, they may take the franchises back and offer them for retender.

It would certainly take time if Apollo attempted to dispose of First UK bus piecemeal. Maybe it could instead be sold as a single going concern to National Express, Comfort DelGro or RATP? I doubt Rotala could afford it. I doubt Transdev would be interested as they are more selective in their limited routes across the country. Likewise I would rule out Abellio. They only seem interested in franchises / tenders having largely pulled out of bus operations in Surrey.

National Express are happy with their current setup.Let us remember in 2009 they were in trouble when First made that ill advised takeover bid.National Express upped their game in the Midlands they have managed to keep the other big groups out of Birmingham save for Arriva from Tamworth and First from Worcester.RATP maybe .ComfortDelgro have got many problems in their Asian heartland.

 

[overthewater]

What if.......

If Leicester was sold would tranbarton get first refusal. That is an odd one. Especial if what Volvodart is saying

I would imagine if Apollo were to be successful, they will need to do something about the UK bus pension deficit and the effect on it if they are to start selling individual bus companies.

 

[overthewater]

Actually do we know which areas have the worse pension defeats?

 

[winston270twm]

National Express are happy with their current setup.Let us remember in 2009 they were in trouble when First made that ill advised takeover bid.National Express upped their game in the Midlands they have managed to keep the other big groups out of Birmingham save for Arriva from Tamworth and First from Worcester.RATP maybe .ComfortDelgro have got many problems in their Asian heartland.

I disagree, NX were involved in negotiations for the previous £100 million of First UK Bus Disposals back in 2013, they came very close to taking on Redditch & Kidderminster as a low cost unit of NXWM. They were also front runners for acquiring Wigan and were understood to have made offers for other First depot operations, this at a time when their financial standing & profits were much poorer than they are today. Whilst it's highly unlikely NX would be interested in any of First Rail Franchises, and NX won't take large risk, I'm certain if FWY, Leicester, Glasgow & Bristol all came on the market, they would definitely be interested, possibly even Manchester at the right price.

 

[Robertj21a]

I disagree, NX were involved in negotiations for the previous £100 million of First UK Bus Disposals back in 2013, they came very close to taking on Redditch & Kidderminster as a low cost unit of NXWM. They were also front runners for acquiring Wigan and were understood to have made offers for other First depot operations, this at a time when their financial standing & profits were much poorer than they are today. Whilst it's highly unlikely NX would be interested in any of First Rail Franchises, and NX won't take large risk, I'm certain if FWY, Leicester, Glasgow & Bristol all came on the market, they would definitely be interested, possibly even Manchester at the right price.

Agreed, if anything happens to First Group, it may prove to be NX that comes out as a surprise purchaser.

 

[winston270twm]

Agreed, if anything happens to First Group, it may prove to be NX that comes out as a surprise purchaser.

Particularly as Dean Finch is former First Group, Stagecoach would be limited in what they could buy....