First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Everyone and his dog is now running with this story:

In other news: http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/161...mpton__39_s_buses_greener_and_less_polluting/

SOUTHAMPTON buses are set to be fitted with pollution reducing tech following a £2.67 million government grant.

As part of a drive by the council to clean up the city’s air, the cash will be used to upgrade 145 older and more polluting diesel buses with advanced catalytic converters – which can cut nitrogen dioxide emissions by up to 90 per cent.

At its cabinet meeting next Tuesday, civic chiefs will vote on whether they will accept the grant.

If approved, the money will also be used to fit the vehicles with telematics exhaust monitoring technology, which will monitor the amount of pollution they produce.


Civic chiefs say they want to implement the technology ahead of the introduction of the city’s Clean Air Zone in 2019.

City council cabinet member for sustainable living, councillor Christopher Hammond, said: “This funding will help reduce harmful nitrogen dioxide emissions from older buses in the city, helping meet a key objective of the city council’s clean air strategy.

“It will contribute towards improved air quality on congested road corridors in the city.”

Southampton was one of 20 cities across the UK to be awarded the money, from the government’s £40 million Clean Bus Technology Fund (CBFT).

Civic chiefs bid in partnership with First Hampshire, Dorset and Berkshire, Go-South Coast, Xelabus and Wheelers Travel – who between them operate all 35 of the bus routes in the city.

The operators will match fund the grant with £815,680 in refurbished vehicles, driver training and investment to improve fuel economy.

The grant money will be used to fit 145 pre-Euro VI standard buses, built before January 2015, with Selective Catalytic Reduction Technology (SCRT).

Used in diesel engines, the device injects a liquid-reductant agent through a special catalyst into the exhaust stream, reducing the amount of harmful emissions the engine produces.

Andrew Wickham, managing director of Go South Coast, which operates Bluestarand Unilink in the city, said: “We believe a well-run and reliable bus service is an excellent solution for improving air quality and reducing congestion, because it gives people the option to leave their cars at home.


“So this funding is a welcome boost for Southampton.”

 

[Volvodart]

Interesting the number of buses getting converted. In Scotland, they are only proposing to fund 440 buses in total with this. Unclear if this is all for Glasgow only or for all of Scotland's Low Emission Zones.

 

[xc170]

I do feel for First Groups staff right now.

My company was the subject of a takeover not too long ago, big company, taken over by an even bigger American company, as soon as you hear of any potential takeover/merger/acquisition, it creates a lot of uncertainty...

 

[Robertj21a]

TGW - did you buy more in the end?

The best scenario would be if First Group were to attract the interest of pension fund manager, one that wished to retain the entire group & had money to throw at it to turn it around.

I can't see anyone managing to pull off a takeover on the cheap, as all long term investors will need a fairly high share price just to break even.

It will be interesting to see what unfolds, the key is for Apollo Management to get the backing of a number of the main shareholders.

I agree that a wealthy Pension Fund might be best in order to keep First Group together but then what's the point really ?. It cries out for somebody to split it up into 3-4 obvious units, focus on the most profitable bits and let the rest go off to the best buyer. There's been more than enough years pass by with little real progress being made (for shareholders).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

TGW - did you buy more in the end?

The best scenario would be if First Group were to attract the interest of pension fund manager, one that wished to retain the entire group & had money to throw at it to turn it around.

I can't see anyone managing to pull off a takeover on the cheap, as all long term investors will need a fairly high share price just to break even.

It will be interesting to see what unfolds, the key is for Apollo Management to get the backing of a number of the main shareholders.

I did buy a couple of hundred just for fun!

 

[winston270twm]

I agree that a wealthy Pension Fund might be best in order to keep First Group together but then what's the point really ?. It cries out for somebody to split it up into 3-4 obvious units, focus on the most profitable bits and let the rest go off to the best buyer. There's been more than enough years pass by with little real progress being made (for shareholders).

All fair points, I do think that more could be potentially done for 'The Group' if they had access to more cash for capital expenditure and bolt-on acquisitions without the debt holding them back. I also think they need to look outside of their current markets....

Having looked at Apollo they do have a large number of assets ($250 Billion), it does suggest that they may be looking to take the group private & could possibly just want the US / Canadian based ops, the UK ops could be sold off to pay off the groups debt?

Apollo has until 9th May to launch an formal offer on a put up/shut up basis.

 

[winston270twm]

I did buy a couple of hundred just for fun!

I've got 5000 Carillion shares for sale if you're interested....... ??

 

[transportphoto]

I’ve heard on the grape vine that the Bus Customer Services based in Norwich are all being made redundant, with the work being taken on in Leeds.

Norwich primarily cover the south of England: Midlands, Eastern Counties, Essex, West Of England, Somerset, Hants/Dorset/Berks, Cornwall. Not sure how the Manchester customer service office is effected.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've got 5000 Carillion shares for sale if you're interested....... ??

If you remember, I was also a Carillion shareholder. I also have a few hundred Debenhams shares - basically, I'm a terrible share tipper

Mind you, did buy some Carnival shares after the Costa Concordia and they've more than doubled!!

 

[winston270twm]

If you remember, I was also a Carillion shareholder. I also have a few hundred Debenhams shares - basically, I'm a terrible share tipper

Mind you, did buy some Carnival shares after the Costa Concordia and they've more than doubled!!

Yes I forgot about that! Gallifordtry look promising at present after taking the hit thanks to Carillion.

I haven't had a very good run either, I'm ditching the higher risk AIM shares in favour of Crypto Currencies / Digital Coin Initial Offerings (ICO's). Doing pretty well with Petrofac & Stagecoach are paying 8.5% dividends on current shareprice, I think they will rebound in the future, as Stagecoach are typically the most innovative. (Sorry for going off topic)

Any idea, what sort of price might tempt long term shareholders to accept a takeover offer for First Group, I'm not sure when the main shareholders started building their stakes & at what price.

 

[Kahuna47]

I’ve heard on the grape vine that the Bus Customer Services based in Norwich are all being made redundant, with the work being taken on in Leeds.

Norwich primarily cover the south of England: Midlands, Eastern Counties, Essex, West Of England, Somerset, Hants/Dorset/Berks, Cornwall. Not sure how the Manchester customer service office is effected.

Manchester's Customer Service and Back Office teams at their Head Office in Oldham are all being shifted to Leeds too. I've heard a rumour that Depot Back Offices are being moved to the South West.

K

 

[stuart81]

I’ve heard on the grape vine that the Bus Customer Services based in Norwich are all being made redundant, with the work being taken on in Leeds.

Norwich primarily cover the south of England: Midlands, Eastern Counties, Essex, West Of England, Somerset, Hants/Dorset/Berks, Cornwall. Not sure how the Manchester customer service office is effected.

The FEC and Essex Twitter feeds hadn' been updated in a week when I looked last night

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes I forgot about that! Gallifordtry look promising at present after taking the hit thanks to Carillion.

I haven't had a very good run either, I'm ditching the higher risk AIM shares in favour of Crypto Currencies / Digital Coin Initial Offerings (ICO's). Doing pretty well with Petrofac & Stagecoach are paying 8.5% dividends on current shareprice, I think they will rebound in the future, as Stagecoach are typically the most innovative. (Sorry for going off topic)

Any idea, what sort of price might tempt long term shareholders to accept a takeover offer for First Group, I'm not sure when the main shareholders started building their stakes & at what price.

I have Balfour Beatty as well - think I will hang onto them. I used to have M&S but have bailed out of retail - Amazon are just screwing the market.

As for a target price for sale - gut feel might be somewhere around £1.40 but no science behind that!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

They're seeing that the First Group business units are worth far more by being broken up & sold against remaining as part of a group. It was inventible that one of the hedge funds would make an approach, the group's been underperforming for years.

Perhaps Apollo have taken soundings with the asset managers, and the asset managers are saying 'we are fed up waiting and want out', to realise some return rather than none?

 

[Robertj21a]

I have Balfour Beatty as well - think I will hang onto them. I used to have M&S but have bailed out of retail - Amazon are just screwing the market.

As for a target price for sale - gut feel might be somewhere around £1.40 but no science behind that!

Early morning rises already lost and now down to 104p.

 

[radamfi]

Out of curiosity, are there people here who are "fans" of First Group, and so want them to succeed more than, say, Stagecoach? I can understand "supporting" First if you are a shareholder, but otherwise? I suppose that also leads to another question. Would you invest in First, just because you are interested in trains? Of course, there maybe other reasons for investing in First. Some people say, "buy what you know", but that doesn't necessarily lead to successful investing, as it means you can get more emotionally involved in the investment.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Out of curiosity, are there people here who are "fans" of First Group, and so want them to succeed more than, say, Stagecoach? I can understand "supporting" First if you are a shareholder, but otherwise? I suppose that also leads to another question. Would you invest in First, just because you are interested in trains? Of course, there maybe other reasons for investing in First. Some people say, "buy what you know", but that doesn't necessarily lead to successful investing, as it means you can get more emotionally involved in the investment.

Most seem to be 'anti-fans', me being one of them given their performance in my area!

Not everyone invests in the most effective way. It is the big failure in economic theory - people do not necessarily behave in the most logical manner. People 'like' a certain building society so keep their savings in it even when a higher rate available elsewhere. The same can be said for investors.

 

[Dai Corner]

Out of curiosity, are there people here who are "fans" of First Group, and so want them to succeed more than, say, Stagecoach? I can understand "supporting" First if you are a shareholder, but otherwise? I suppose that also leads to another question. Would you invest in First, just because you are interested in trains? Of course, there maybe other reasons for investing in First. Some people say, "buy what you know", but that doesn't necessarily lead to successful investing, as it means you can get more emotionally involved in the investment.

I haven't invested directly in any public transport providers as, following the fortunes of the industry fairly closely, I know that running bus services or rail franchises isn't terribly profitable. I don't know enough about the business abroad to consider investing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Early morning rises already lost and now down to 104p.

Still considerably higher than the 84p I bought at

Out of curiosity, are there people here who are "fans" of First Group, and so want them to succeed more than, say, Stagecoach? I can understand "supporting" First if you are a shareholder, but otherwise? I suppose that also leads to another question. Would you invest in First, just because you are interested in trains? Of course, there maybe other reasons for investing in First. Some people say, "buy what you know", but that doesn't necessarily lead to successful investing, as it means you can get more emotionally involved in the investment.

It was a cold hearted punt from me. Underperforming stock but with a potential to return to a dividend or for someone to make a move to buy them.

I didn't buy Carillion shares 'cos I like bridges

There are many on this board who positively revel in First's travails. Not withstanding the historic mistakes, the entire bus industry is facing existential challenges, irrespective of franchising, free passes, et al

 

[winston270twm]

Still considerably higher than the 84p I bought at

It was a cold hearted punt from me. Underperforming stock but with a potential to return to a dividend or for someone to make a move to buy them.

I didn't buy Carillion shares 'cos I like bridges

There are many on this board who positively revel in First's travails. Not withstanding the historic mistakes, the entire bus industry is facing existential challenges, irrespective of franchising, free passes, et al

TGW, 84p/share that's 1p cheaper than the 85p rights issue price how many years ago??? ~ it can soon come back down if no bid lands.....

What did we buy Carillion shares for?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

TGW, 84p/share that's 1p cheaper than the 85p rights issue price how many years ago??? ~ it can soon come back down if no bid lands.....

What did we buy Carillion shares for?

Are you seeking to twist the knife about Carillion..... c.£2.70 net. I'd only have wasted the money on a lovely meal and copious alcohol!

 

[winston270twm]

Are you seeking to twist the knife about Carillion..... c.£2.70 net. I'd only have wasted the money on a lovely meal and copious alcohol!

No, not at all. They shafted me twice, with share loss & main source of work all gone in a flash! The later sounds far more satisfying...... I didn't start buying until low £2's either...

I was thinking around £1.40 - £1.60 / share range for a successful bid, no idea what price some of the main shareholders got in at. Obviously, they were at £8 at the end of 2007/early 2008.

Back up to £1.10 at close today (+8%)

 

[mic]

Thanks. I understand the remaining Enviro300s at Bolton are expected to transfer to Oldham as well - albeit exactly the same consolidation was mooted last September! Also, it is believed "some or all" B7TL/ALX400s are to be withdrawn.

can confirm 67412 is now at Oldham seen on 350 the other day

 

[Jordan Adam]

Aberdeen drivers have accepted the new pay offer meaning the strikes are now over!

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...deen-bus-drivers-vote-to-accept-new-pay-deal/

Unite the Union members voted 60% to 40% to accept First Aberdeen’s offer and industrial action is off.

Of the 256 members balloted 154 voted to accept the deal and 102 voted to reject.
Willie Wallace, Unite the Union’s full time officer, said: “Over the last two days, Unite members have been voting on a further revised proposal.

“As a result of that vote, members have decided to accept that proposal.

“60% of our members voted to accept the proposals and 40% still against.

“It’s been a long and difficult dispute, our members have been resolute in their actions and I think that action has brought the company back to the table on several occasions.

“We can now hopefully put this matter behind us and move on, and hopefully build some bridges with First Bus.”
..

 

[overthewater]

Out of curiosity, are there people here who are "fans" of First Group, and so want them to succeed more than, say, Stagecoach? I can understand "supporting" First if you are a shareholder, but otherwise? I suppose that also leads to another question. Would you invest in First, just because you are interested in trains? Of course, there maybe other reasons for investing in First. Some people say, "buy what you know", but that doesn't necessarily lead to successful investing, as it means you can get more emotionally involved in the investment.

I dont think most people on here are anti-fans, or hate first outright. Were more hacked off, at its pompous attitude it use to have. Saying they were the biggest, and the best and no1 bus company in UK, but never acted like it. I think many are disappointed because we know First can alot better over the years but it never really tried....but year after year after year after year and it's the same old story, yes the old guard has left back in 2010 and now we have new people but it still feels things are talking far too long. I know where the winds were blowing....

We know First can do better, but It looked like people at the top of First were spoiled brats jumping around looking for the next big thing, "oh Shiny" Stagecoach pulled it better with its underdog attitude. Pre 2010....

We need a Strong "First bus" to counteract Stagecoach, to make sure Stagecoach and hopeful Arriva are kept on their toes.....

* If you want a better frequency... Get a bus war...
* If you want a better fleet.... get someone else to operate a route in to town ( 9 times out of 10 the best vehicles will be used on such a route)

I dont believe this take over will lead to anything better for UK bus, which will dumped on to raft and floating out to sea while the better slices are kept to boost the greedy Hedge funds pockets,

Aberdeen drivers have accepted the new pay offer meaning the strikes are now over!

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...deen-bus-drivers-vote-to-accept-new-pay-deal/

I wonder if it's the same deal as last time? but it was made clear old guard would not be asked to do any splits? keeping that side happy?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No, not at all. They shafted me twice, with share loss & main source of work all gone in a flash! The later sounds far more satisfying...... I didn't start buying until low £2's either...

I was thinking around £1.40 - £1.60 / share range for a successful bid, no idea what price some of the main shareholders got in at. Obviously, they were at £8 at the end of 2007/early 2008.

Back up to £1.10 at close today (+8%)

I was only kidding on the knife twisting

Think we shall see a few fluctuations on the share price in the coming weeks.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I wonder if it's the same deal as last time? but it was made clear old guard would not be asked to do any splits? keeping that side happy?

The new deal just saw the working day reduced by 15 minutes along with a pay increase.

 

[overthewater]

The new deal just saw the working day reduced by 15 minutes along with a pay increase.

Where did there get the money for the pay increase?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Where did there get the money for the pay increase?

Satsuma Loans..... In all seriousness i'm not sure!

 

[overthewater]

Satsuma Loans..... In all seriousness i'm not sure!

I wonder what the new starting rate will be for new drivers, and how much that will increase of 3 year period. I also wonder if the current staff will all get the same increase in pay, and how long it booked end for. It wouldn't be surprising if First had saved up £200'000 over the past couple of years to fight this strike action, to get the reforms implemented.