First Group: General Discussion

[lincman]

Hi,
Just read this article and although I don't live anywhere near Manchester ( sleepy Somerset) I wondered how many folks on here had spotted the date for all this.
April 1st, does that ring any bells then !
Cheers, Mike R

I also noticed the date, and I hope that it is a prank, but this was posted on the First web site on 12th March and quotes were attributed to the MD. This item has not been in any way denied.

 

[Silver Cobra]

As an aside, First Conditions of Carriage state that, for a fare payer, even if a ticket cannot be issued you still have to pay the fare! Interesting if you want a day ticket! In the old days the book of 'emergency tickets' came out, following which a very slow journey ensued as each ticket was hand written!

As far as First in The Potteries go. This is a quote from the August 2017 T & C.

4.20 If our ticket equipment is not functioning properly and as a consequence is not able to produce tickets, you must still pay the correct fare for your journey.

They seem pretty standard across all opcos but I haven't checked.

That's very interesting. Stagecoach, in comparison, seem to take the complete opposite approach to First in this situation.

Back on Saturday 17th March I was in Skegness and boarded a Stagecoach route 1 service to head to Ingoldmells. Due to the very cold weather that day, the ticket machine on the bus wouldn't work. After the driver tried several times to issue tickets to passengers with no success, he just waved everybody on to the bus. Heading up to the top deck of the bus, I saw a sticker just above the front window which stated that, in the case of where the ticket machine on the bus malfunctions, passengers will not be asked to pay. This was an official Stagecoach Lincolnshire sticker.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Certainly every time (bar once) I've been on a First Aberdeen or Stagecoach North Scotland (Formally Stagecoach Bluebird) bus with a fault machine the driver just waves you on.

That exception being on New Years Eve when i put the money for my fare (Day ticket) in to the hopper and the machine failed to print a ticket, so the driver gave me one of the "emergency tickets". After a few attempts to get it to print a ticket with no success they just waved the other passengers on, making sure they didn't put their money in.

I've not read the T&C's in ages so i'm not sure on what they state, but as i say when ever the machine is faulty they wave people on.

 

[Volvodart]

In Aberdeen and you are paying by cash, you have to pay if the ticket machine is not working. If you have a single ticket you would have to ask if you wanted a receipt. For other tickets you would be given a ticket from the driver's ticket book. To save time, the driver might say to pay on the next bus instead of doing these manually. If the contactless machine is not working, you will get on for free.

 

[overthewater]

In Aberdeen and you are paying by cash, you have to pay if the ticket machine is not working.

That breaks the law... Isn't there rules stating all passengers must be given a ticket for fares paid?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In Aberdeen and you are paying by cash, you have to pay if the ticket machine is not working. If you have a single ticket you would have to ask if you wanted a receipt. For other tickets you would be given a ticket from the driver's ticket book. To save time, the driver might say to pay on the next bus instead of doing these manually. If the contactless machine is not working, you will get on for free.

Cash into a hopper, where the driver has no access to it, is different than cash into a tray where he has. Although in either scenario the passenger has no proof that they have paid their fare (or flashed their ENCTS pass) - as required by the very same (contradictory therefore unenforceable) T & C.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

That breaks the law... Isn't there rules stating all passengers must be given a ticket for fares paid?

Are you suggesting that First Bus are some kind of shambolic, poorly managed, disaster of a company rapidly sinking and operating outside the law?

 

[Volvodart]

That breaks the law... Isn't there rules stating all passengers must be given a ticket for fares paid?

Seeing as you do or did work for Stagecoach, what do they do when the ticket machine is not working?

 

[Kahuna47]

Seeing as you do or did work for Stagecoach, what do they do when the ticket machine is not working?

Speaking as a current First Manc employee, broken machine = free rides for everyone. We carry emergency tickets but we're told never to use them - its only to satisfy the Traffic Commissioner and conditions of licence. As long as we tell Service Performance (central comms on the radio in old speak) we can do most things

K

 

[WelshBluebird]

Down here in Bath, if the machine isn't working then you'll be waved on for free.
Not sure on the policy if it can't read your ticket though (rather than not working at all). I'd imagine you'd be asked to pay again.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Down here in Bath, if the machine isn't working then you'll be waved on for free.
Not sure on the policy if it can't read your ticket though (rather than not working at all). I'd imagine you'd be asked to pay again.

This thread begins to read like the Northern thread and their ticketless travel policy.

The law (including TC policy, licencing regs, other rules/regulation/formal guidance) says 'A'.
Our T & C / rules say 'A+' to comply with the law.
In practice we do 'B' until, at random, we choose to do 'A' in which case you, the passenger will be entirely at fault.

Kahuna 47, join the union, speak to the rep. You only have one backside and it's your job to cover it. When a passenger complains about failure to receive a receipt / ie a ticket for travel, do you think management will a) support you or (given the topicality this week) b) crucify you?
You wouldn't speed or jump a red light because management said it was OK!

 

[Kahuna47]

Kahuna 47, join the union, speak to the rep. You only have one backside and it's your job to cover it. When a passenger complains about failure to receive a receipt / ie a ticket for travel, do you think management will a) support you or (given the topicality this week) b) crucify you?
You wouldn't speed or jump a red light because management said it was OK!

Don't worry, my backside is sufficiently covered its all union approved. We only take money for the tickets we sell. We also log it on the defect card and tell comms about it. The answer we get is 'we'll send the VSI out with one at your terminus. Until then, free ride everyone'. Not had an orange bloke waiting with an ETM yet!

I know what you mean though, in case of accident etc, which is why its not always sat right with me. Plus they lose a fortune in potential fares!

K

K

 

[the101]

It seems that the usual experts claiming money into back pockets, problems with the taxman and so on have never heard of emergency tickets, with which all drivers are still issued. But hey, when has the truth ever got in the way of the know-it-all element and their ranting and raving?

 

[Jordan Adam]

In Aberdeen and you are paying by cash, you have to pay if the ticket machine is not working. If you have a single ticket you would have to ask if you wanted a receipt. For other tickets you would be given a ticket from the driver's ticket book. To save time, the driver might say to pay on the next bus instead of doing these manually. If the contactless machine is not working, you will get on for free.

That may be "company policy". But i can't once say I've been on a First Aberdeen bus with a broken machine where the driver has asked people to pay. The only time they issue the emergency tickets is if the person has put money in the hopper before the driver got a chance to say to them not to.

 

[Jordan Adam]

This is not the best as it's just a photo i took back in January to send someone over FB, as i was saying to them about the machine not working and i don't have the ticket anymore so i can't take a better photo. But for those of you that may not have seen these before - This is an emergency ticket.

 

[overthewater]

Speaking as a current First Manc employee, broken machine = free rides for everyone. We carry emergency tickets but we're told never to use them - its only to satisfy the Traffic Commissioner and conditions of licence. As long as we tell Service Performance (central comms on the radio in old speak) we can do most things

K

Ding ding ding, We have a winner. " broken machine = free rides for everyone" This has even happened umpteen times in Bluebird area. Last time I saw emergency tickets must be 20 years ago!

 

[overthewater]

Well if the X30 can have them maybe the X10 will get them next

https://www.firstgroup.com/essex/ne...ntroduced-x30-express-service-london-stansted

DOUBLE DECK BUSES INTRODUCED ON THE X30 EXPRESS SERVICE TO LONDON STANSTED AIRPORT

• After consulting with its customers and asking for feedback on proposals to introduce double deck buses on their express service to Stansted airport, First Essex are pleased to announce they are being introduced from today Monday 26 March 2018

• The X30 service linking Southend and Chelmsford with Stansted airport has become so popular that in the early morning and late afternoon, buses have been running to capacity

• After undertaking a trial where customers could experience what it’s like to take a journey to and from the airport on a plush double deck bus with panoramic views to enjoy, they gave the thumbs up on the proposal

• The X30 service provides a fast, frequent, direct and stress free journey to and from the airport

Through an initiative to improve the X10 and X30 services, 12 brand new, state of the art, single deck buses were introduced in November 2016, in a £1.9m partnership with local bus operator First Essex and London Stansted Airport.

Since the introduction, people living in Chelmsford, Basildon, Wickford and Southend have made the service so popular, that a rethink was needed, to accommodate the ever-growing number of people using the services, with fares starting from just £10 one way to the Airport proving popular with holiday makers, all easily purchased on your mobile, online or on bus.

So, after a trial and consultation with customers, First Essex is pleased to be announcing that from today 26 March 2018, ‘high specification’ double deck buses will run on the busiest journeys taking commuters, airport staff and holidaymakers who make the daily journey to and from the airport.

The newly refurbished Double Deck buses offer, comfy E – leather seating, FREE Wi-fi, Laptop charging points, and panoramic views across the route from the top deck.

The X30 service runs throughout the day, night and early morning, every day of the week on every day of the year (excluding Christmas Day). With journey times of just 35 minutes from Chelmsford and 80 minutes from Southend to Stansted.

All 12 buses introduced in 2016 were fitted with the latest Euro VI engines*, which produce 95% less oxides of nitrogen (NOx) emissions compared to buses with Euro V engines and as a result have helped improve air quality on the route.

Typical Journey Times:

X30 Chelmsford to Stansted - 35 mins

X30 Rayleigh Rail Stn to Chelmsford - 25 mins

X30 Southend to Chelmsford - 60 mins

Adam Keeble, Marketing Manager for First Essex, said: “I am pleased and excited to be announcing the introduction of the double deck buses on the X30 airport service. We’ve listened to customer feedback, and we’re delighted to be able to deliver the newly refurbished decker’s to improve the quality of our X30 service provides. The service provides customers with a cost effective, fast, frequent journey to and from the airport and we look forward to welcoming lots of holiday makers on our service over Summer”.

 

[Stan Drews]

Seeing as you do or did work for Stagecoach, what do they do when the ticket machine is not working?

I'm fairly sure 'overthewater' has never worked for Stagecoach ...or any other bus operator!

 

[Observer]

This is not the best as it's just a photo i took back in January to send someone over FB, as i was saying to them about the machine not working and i don't have the ticket anymore so i can't take a better photo. But for those of you that may not have seen these before - This is an emergency ticket.

View attachment 44396

Trying to remember if I ever got one of these myself. Think I dodged a bullet and got a ticket from the usual machine before it packed in.

Seen other operators use the below example for emergency tickets. Uses carbon paper so there is a copy retained in the booklet.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It seems that the usual experts claiming money into back pockets, problems with the taxman and so on have never heard of emergency tickets, with which all drivers are still issued. But hey, when has the truth ever got in the way of the know-it-all element and their ranting and raving?

Read Kahuna 47's post. They may be issued with them but they are instructed not to issue them.

I didn't say anyone was having problems with the taxman. I said he does not like cash payments, especially without an electronic till. That is the case across all business sectors. HMRC like a nice electronic record rather than paper receipts. Even from window cleaners and doorstep milkmen.

 

[F Great Eastern]

https://www.firstgroup.com/essex/ne...ntroduced-x30-express-service-london-stansted

The spin doctors have been working overtime in that press release.

Of course the previous over crowding had NOTHING to do with replacing 45 seat coaches that were often almost full with 33 seat buses and everything to do with passenger number increases!

They are merely fixing their own mistake and problems that they created for themselves. The problems have been there pretty much since the time the coaches were replaced.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Aircoach in Ireland this weekend swapped out their elderly TGX150 Wayfarers for the new ticketer ticket machines.

Due to become the first Irish operator to accept contactless payment if all goes to plan.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Has Glasgow done away with the radios in the cab now they have the Ticketer machines if drivers need to be given updates? The only reason that I'm asking is that Scotrail had ticket acceptance in place with First due to signal disruption but when I tried to board with my train ticket I got told that I couldn't travel as the Ticketer wasn't showing any service updates.

I showed the driver the Scotrail website which was a worthless task in itself as he still didn't let me travel...

 

[Jordan Adam]

In Aberdeen communication is now done fully through the Ticketers.

 

[Stef434]

Has Glasgow done away with the radios in the cab now they have the Ticketer machines if drivers need to be given updates? The only reason that I'm asking is that Scotrail had ticket acceptance in place with First due to signal disruption but when I tried to board with my train ticket I got told that I couldn't travel as the Ticketer wasn't showing any service updates.

I showed the driver the Scotrail website which was a worthless task in itself as he still didn't let me travel...

Glasgow gets updates via Ticketer constantly regarding scotrail acceptance, only bus services that operate via train stations that are affected ,the acceptance can range from one hour to all day but does not apply to weather disruption.

 

[route101]

I see , not heard a radio go off in a wee while . A few months.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Glasgow gets updates via Ticketer constantly regarding scotrail acceptance, only bus services that operate via train stations that are affected ,the acceptance can range from one hour to all day but does not apply to weather disruption.

I was going from Glasgow Central Station to Bridgeton, and Bridgeton was one of the affected stations. The driiver just wouldn't listen to what I was saying unfortunately.

 

[transportphoto]

Well if the X30 can have them maybe the X10 will get them next

https://www.firstgroup.com/essex/ne...ntroduced-x30-express-service-london-stansted

Former Berkshire Greenline vehicles having been resprayed I do believe!

 

[overthewater]

Former Berkshire Greenline vehicles having been resprayed I do believe!

Do you know how many?

 

[transportphoto]

Nope, just Googled to have a nosy at the vehicles being used - saw 11 plated Geminis… where else would they be from?
Meet 37986… before: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131364593@N06/38695863614, and after: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steve...FUy8np-25uUzhA-25wPgsq-22NNzLC-25AD8FP-FUxPMe