First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is no age limit of 17 years. The only relevance of '17 years' is that First Group accountants extended the depreciation period to 17 years for the 'heavyweight' buses in the group.

Exactly - in the past, plenty of vehicles (incl. Darts) have managed more than 17 years!

 

[baza585]

Again it's been stated Fig has a much higher average age of fleet compared to elsewhere, Even when Glasgow get its 25 new buses for this year or whenever, it will still have life expired fleet in use and in 2018 will still have the same problem; 17 years old buses still in full front line operation. Next year there is 60 - 51 plate Single deckers that will need to be shipped out, or either First will have to increase the age limted again from 17 years to 18 years.

It will be a never ending fleet replacement within Glasgow then, trying to get rid 17 years old buses. I doubt Andrew Jarvis wants to go down that road. Ie let have a more sensible replacement policy.

I agree Glasgow desperately needs to modernise their fleet, and I strongly agree that some of the ex London Tridents are life expired and fit only for the scrappies. That said, in Hampshire we have an Olympian and W reg East Lancs ex Bristol Tridents (that leaked like a sieve from day 1 and haven't improved with age) still in daily service, and our share of ex London Trident sheds too (several of which are T reg.) out on a 16 hour a day University service in Portsmouth. Glasgow is not alone in having problems with its fleet

Ultimately Andrew Jarvis is having to work within the UK Bus constraints on capex as are all the opco MDs. Presumably the ongoing swap (Streetlites for 54 reg. Geminis) with West of England is part of his strategy to improve the age profile of Glasgow fleet and 25 new E400s would also enable Glasgow to withdraw the worst of the Tridents. I suspect selective cutting of PVR on marginal routes may also help the age profile, as both First and Stagecoach are doing elsewhere.

I'm sure all the MDs would like to have shiny new kit and get rid of their dogs, but First is strapped for capital right now, and the UK bus industry ain't exactly thriving (not just First are struggling to make money, so are the other groups). If I were Tim O'Toole, I'd be allocating my precious discretionary capital spend to the businesses within First Group with the best growth prospects and right now in his view that ain't the whole of UK Bus. Many of the opcos can only expect cascades this year, and I suspect some of the buses available for cascade won't attract many takers, so opcos will just have to soldier on with what they have got.

I believe there are businesses with good profit growth prospects within UK Bus (eg Bristol) and significant investment is going in there as we speak. I've no idea about Glasgow's growth prospects but the relative lack of orders in recent years possibly speaks volumes about First's assessment of the local market and economic conditions.

First don't have a 17 year old limit on vehicle age. They will run them as long as they can; they just depreciate them over 17 years (was 15); after that they are paid for and can continue if they are still fit for the road (eg Hampshire's Olympian and T reg. Tridents which now cost them nothing in depreciation, although the Tridents allegedly cost loads in repair bills.......).

 

[overthewater]

Then my point still stands then because all those 51 plate single deckers are heavyweight being B7L or B10BLE.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Then my point still stands then because all those 51 plate single deckers are heavyweight being B7L or B10BLE.

No, it doesn’t. Robert is quite correct - it is not a limit that they must replaced by. It is the depreciation period. When it was 15 years, plenty of fleet lasted longer - Badgerline’s original Lance SLFs lasted from 1994 until 2013!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I agree Glasgow desperately needs to modernise their fleet, and I strongly agree that some of the ex London Tridents are life expired and fit only for the scrappies. That said, in Hampshire we have an Olympian and W reg East Lancs ex Bristol Tridents (that leaked like a sieve from day 1 and haven't improved with age) still in daily service, and our share of ex London Trident sheds too (several of which are T reg.) out on a 16 hour a day University service in Portsmouth. Glasgow is not alone in having problems with its fleet

Ultimately Andrew Jarvis is having to work within the UK Bus constraints on capex as are all the opco MDs. Presumably the ongoing swap (Streetlites for 54 reg. Geminis) with West of England is part of his strategy to improve the age profile of Glasgow fleet and 25 new E400s would also enable Glasgow to withdraw the worst of the Tridents. I suspect selective cutting of PVR on marginal routes may also help the age profile, as both First and Stagecoach are doing elsewhere.

I'm sure all the MDs would like to have shiny new kit and get rid of their dogs, but First is strapped for capital right now, and the UK bus industry ain't exactly thriving (not just First are struggling to make money, so are the other groups). If I were Tim O'Toole, I'd be allocating my precious discretionary capital spend to the businesses within First Group with the best growth prospects and right now in his view that ain't the whole of UK Bus. Many of the opcos can only expect cascades this year, and I suspect some of the buses available for cascade won't attract many takers, so opcos will just have to soldier on with what they have got.

I believe there are businesses with good profit growth prospects within UK Bus (eg Bristol) and significant investment is going in there as we speak. I've no idea about Glasgow's growth prospects but the relative lack of orders in recent years possibly speaks volumes about First's assessment of the local market and economic conditions.

First don't have a 17 year old limit on vehicle age. They will run them as long as they can; they just depreciate them over 17 years (was 15); after that they are paid for and can continue if they are still fit for the road (eg Hampshire's Olympian and T reg. Tridents which now cost them nothing in depreciation, although the Tridents allegedly cost loads in repair bills.......).

Suspect you’re probably pretty spot on with that assessment!

 

[Robertj21a]

Then my point still stands then because all those 51 plate single deckers are heavyweight being B7L or B10BLE.

I think you really don't understand 'Depreciation' - it's only really relevant for the formal Accounts that need to be drawn up by the Accountants. It has *Nothing* to do with when buses must be replaced. Glasgow could, in theory at least, run buses that are 30 years old (but, hopefully, they won't !!)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think you really don't understand 'Depreciation' - it's only really relevant for the formal Accounts that need to be drawn up by the Accountants. It has *Nothing* to do with when buses must be replaced. Glasgow could, in theory at least, run buses that are 30 years old (but, hopefully, they won't !!)

Unlike First Kernow who were running 30 year old open top Citybuses last year!

 

[baza585]

I think you really don't understand 'Depreciation' - it's only really relevant for the formal Accounts that need to be drawn up by the Accountants. It has *Nothing* to do with when buses must be replaced. Glasgow could, in theory at least, run buses that are 30 years old (but, hopefully, they won't !!)

I don't work in the bus industry, but I would expect depreciation to feature in the opco management accounts as well as the formal accounts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't work in the bus industry, but I would expect depreciation to feature in the opco management accounts as well as the formal accounts.

Neither do I but yes, depreciation should feature in flash P&Ls, as well as formal accounts (both by OpCo or Group).

 

[overthewater]

The thing is there nothing wrong with 20 year old stock being kept in normal service, BUT only if its kept in good nick and maintained etc alas in many cases that not the case around Glasgow etc. There are some 18 year old single deckers just being taken out of service the now which are not half bad.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't work in the bus industry, but I would expect depreciation to feature in the opco management accounts as well as the formal accounts.

Yes, quite - but the key issue was to emphasise that Depreciation calculations have nothing to do with when buses have to be replaced.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, quite - but the key issue was to emphasise that Depreciation calculations have nothing to do with when buses have to be replaced.

I don't think Baza was saying otherwise.

OTW has confused what the asset life is (i.e. the 17 year depreciation period) with the vehicle replacement policy

 

[THarris123]

Yes, quite - but the key issue was to emphasise that Depreciation calculations have nothing to do with when buses have to be replaced.

Well it sort of does as it impacts on the selling price, etc, but nonetheless it doesn't mean (as you say) that there is some magic rule to keep buses only for 17 years.

Glasgow does have the highest proportion of older stock compared to all the other areas, with still over 200 vehicles aged 14 or over. It really depends on if it is worth investing in a service at the end of the day, not if there are old knackered buses. Cascades will do just fine for Glasgow though. First want to invest in areas where the councils are making public transport work, rather than neglecting it.

I do think over the next couple of years we'll see some new vehicles for Glasgow, but certainly not 200 vehicles to replace the oldest fleet.

If I was to hazard a guess I'd say theyll receive cascades from Leeds and other parts of Scotland. Bristol will also be moving out plenty of stuff in the next couple of years, but I reckon we'll see that head South or East to replace Tridents (which have the next highest levels of old fleet).

 

[THarris123]

Non, so please do be so impertinent. You never once said No75: you said:


That what you meant but we have to guess that? then question my post as confusing.



Again it's been stated Fig has a much higher average age of fleet compared to elsewhere, Even when Glasgow get its 25 new buses for this year or whenever, it will still have life expired fleet in use and in 2018 will still have the same problem; 17 years old buses still in full front line operation. Next year there is 60 - 51 plate Single deckers that will need to be shipped out, or either First will have to increase the age limted again from 17 years to 18 years.

It will be a never ending fleet replacement within Glasgow then, trying to get rid 17 years old buses. I doubt Andrew Jarvis wants to go down that road. Ie let have a more sensible replacement policy.

Your posts are mostly confusing because of the grammar used. Words are missed out and misspelt and it can be very difficult to read which makes it confusing.

I was alluding to what was being replaced on 75 by asking whether it was E400s. I do apologise to anyone who got confused by my question. Obviously I don't expect people to read my mind, but that trick does come in handy when reading certain posts on this thread.

 

[Volvodart]

I do think over the next couple of years we'll see some new vehicles for Glasgow, but certainly not 200 vehicles to replace the oldest fleet.

If I was to hazard a guess I'd say theyll receive cascades from Leeds and other parts of Scotland. Bristol will also be moving out plenty of stuff in the next couple of years, but I reckon we'll see that head South or East to replace Tridents (which have the next highest levels of old fleet).

Glaagow will need a lot of newer buses because of the low emission zone. I assume the oldest buses would not be worth converting.

 

[THarris123]

Glaagow will need a lot of newer buses because of the low emission zone. I assume the oldest buses would not be worth converting.

Good point. When does that come into effect?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Good point. When does that come into effect?

2018 though don't believe it has been agreed that ALL the city's buses will need to be done at that point (e.g. a phased introduction with certain ratio of vehicles by 2018, increasing through in later years). May also explain why Streetlites are heading up from the West - easier to retrofit to Euro 6

 

[THarris123]

2018 though don't believe it has been agreed that ALL the city's buses will need to be done at that point (e.g. a phased introduction with certain ratio of vehicles by 2018, increasing through in later years). May also explain why Streetlites are heading up from the West - easier to retrofit to Euro 6

Are Scotland providing any funding for this apart from the funding for the 25 order?

 

[overthewater]

Your posts are mostly confusing because of the grammar used. Words are missed out and misspelt and it can be very difficult to read which makes it confusing.

I had made such good progress on that point over the past couple of years. I'll need to review this matter pretty urgently as a matter of importance.

Glaasgow will need a lot of newer buses because of the low emission zone. I assume the oldest buses would not be worth converting.

Has it been agreed/ green lite? There has been alot of arguing over the lack of comment place Lorries or cars etc. Of course the low emission zone is only City centre so First only need to get city routes covered, and then push the older stock to elsewhere. It could mean route 90 losing the new stock.

 

[Volvodart]

It would not look good for First to replace newer buses used outwith the Glasgow city centre area with old buses, as everyone will know what is going on.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are Scotland providing any funding for this apart from the funding for the 25 order?

The sums are quite modest. Essentially, they contribute £1.4m towards the cost differential (vs standard fleet) for 47 vehicles across four operators so about £30k per vehicle.

There's also a further £1.6m to support the retrofitting of vehicles to Euro 6 standard.

 

[overthewater]

Wait a second does this rule also apply to Coaches coming into Buchanan bus stance? Ie Since Euro 6 come into being in 2014, then Stagecoach Express and even First Midland Bluebird might have troubles? IE first might need to spend retro fitting money on Central belt buses.

Full report for the Consultation is here: But what comes from it is anyone guess;
https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/39673/low-emission-zones-consultation.pdf

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wait a second does this rule also apply to Coaches coming into Buchanan bus stance? Ie Since Euro 6 come into being in 2014, then Stagecoach Express and even First Midland Bluebird might have troubles? IE first might need to spend retro fitting money on Central belt buses.

Full report for the Consultation is here: But what comes from it is anyone guess;
https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/39673/low-emission-zones-consultation.pdf

Consultation only closed a fortnight ago. What actually comes of this, we shall see but no need getting too wound up about it at the moment.

 

[route101]

Hopefully a start to getting rid of the Tridents.

I havent seen any X reg tridents fora good while , have they been retired ?

 

[156478]

https://www.firstgroup.com/greater-...anned-changes/service-revision-8-january-2018

Night services in Glasgow getting the cut. Significant areas no longer having buses after midnight.

 

[Volvodart]

They are weekend only. As has been said before, every change for First gets reported on here, but nothing really for the other big firms is reported elsewhere on this forum as a comparison for what is actually happening across the country. For instance, Stagecoach Bluebird have made many changes this year. Some of the major routes have had cuts to early morning and evening frequencies.

 

[overthewater]

Hardly big cuts anyways? I really wouldn't class this as Significant. Saving what two buses? or 8 journeys at the most? Another point is, just after the new year is one of the weakest times for night goers.

Only one parts of the city is losing their night service,
* N60 (to Easterhouse) Will be replaced by N2, it will longer serve the Monklands area.
* Other side of the N60 is still in place expect for a tiny gap between Drumry Road East and Clydebank
* N75 that seems to be the only area that getting completely cut off, Is there no party goers from Castlemilk?

Unlike others it should be noted Stagecoach East Scotland thread has recorded cuts and issues etc, and Also Mcgills thread also highlighted any changes on their patch. It is strange why other people dont comment or whitewash cuts elsewhere.

 

[156478]

If you look closer the N7 and the N57 to Robroyston are also being withdrawn, there is what seems to be an erroneous extra line in the withdrawals part and they don't feature in any part of the new timetables. Maybe the Springburn, Auchinairn, Robroyston and Toryglen areas are classed as non party goer areas
The gingy runs on the N9A are coming off which is a bit of an odd withdrawal

 

[overthewater]

If you look closer the N7 and the N57 to Robroyston are also being withdrawn, there is what seems to be an erroneous extra line in the withdrawals part and they don't feature in any part of the new timetables. Maybe the Springburn, Auchinairn, Robroyston and Toryglen areas are classed as non party goer areas
The gingy runs on the N9A are coming off which is a bit of an odd withdrawal

Who ever did update, formatted it poorly. With Springburn, Auchinairn, Robroyston the daytime service were cut back recently due to major regeneration of the area ie less people living in the schemes. Maybe there thought there might get some night time passengers with xmas and Hogmanay coming up but decide sod it for afterwards .

 

[DragonEast]

I still think the difference between First and the other groups (and the reason First cuts get all the attention) is that the rest are already investing (surely essential for any business for future survival) and the cuts are ancillary, a part of normal business adjustment - though they too are suffering from the harsh realities of the modern world - cars and the internet. The others aren't, I think, living a hand-to-mouth existence. What about First Bus? I'm not so sure. With First the cuts may be essential (and no-one has a clue how far they have to go) as it looks as though they struggle to even maintain a fleet and keep it on the road; and are perhaps essential to day to day survival now, never mind for the future, before any question of investment even arises. Put simply, no-one knows if First Bus have a future, and the question is still if not what. (That being said they've been limping on for a good few years now and I suspect they'll carry on doing so, though I still struggle to see why they're in the UK bus business, apart from them being stuck with the parts of the business that no-one else wants and, of course, the well-known open hostility of the competition authorities - and politicians - to consolidation, for which you could just read, business. Their private business affairs - as with all of us - are, of course, an exception but that's off-limits). As for investment, they have to look for public funding. I really can't understand this love for First, except for those with a nostalgia for the National Bus Company (deceased), who I suppose must think of First Bus as its reincarnation! At least if Jeremy Corbyn is the new messiah it might be one bit he won't have to pay for. They'd probably be praying as well as begging for him to take it off their hands!