First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

Go ahead seems to be very hit and miss of the past few years, there keep winning awards yet at the same time make stupid purchase, and also operate some highly questionable companies Likes thames travel (Which I have mentioned before on this forum) There never seems to be any middle ground with them it's either outstanding or crap. Which when compared to First, I dare say the question will be why has the "crap" areas not been over hyped.

Depends on what your sources are for your views. Have you actually seen these operations? Or are you relying on some less than impartial views and hyperbole?

Now, I confess that I don't know about Go Ahead's Eastern ops (nor the London ops either). However, I get to see three of their other areas of operation.

Go South Coast is a very good operation though even within that, there are differences in service delivery. Some of that is attributable to the "thinness" of the territory; the Salisbury Reds operation has vacated a fair bit of territory and was increasingly pressured by Stagecoach and independents. In fact, if it were a First subsidiary, you could imagine the uproar. Meanwhile, SolentBlueLine is pretty decent, More likewise, whilst Damory was rather patchy but hey, it was surviving on a convoluted mix of tenders with some marginal commercial work. Haven't been to the isle of the damned (IOW) for a couple of years but you can see how they have trimmed many local services and those to the West of the Island whilst other services have been enhanced. Fleet was ok though.

Go Ahead in Oxfordshire/Bucks is actually pretty good. Thames Travel is a decent operator but, like Damory, was heavily dependent on tendered work though it had better paying commercial work. They have been badly affected by the swingeing council cuts. Everyone probably knows that OBC is a superb operator. If there is any form of weak link, it would be Carousel. Neither crap nor brilliant but working in a very challenging area of high car ownership and terrible traffic congestion.

Of course, you have the original Go North East and even this (in its single guise) has its better and worse spots. However, the poorer fleet has to go somewhere and you can see some high end fleet in Citaros meeting some very peachy Solars in various spots; remember that Go North East has also recorded some disappointing patronage decreases but that's not a surprise. No operator is immune from the problems of low economic activity and collapsing retail footfall. Try going to somewhere like Chester le Street or South Shields; the challenges are there to be seen.

Those are the self same problems that are affecting ALL operators. It may seem odd that in Eastern Kent, Stagecoach have been busy cutting back services; it may be the south but the factors are all too familiar!

 

[overthewater]

Yes I have seen some of the Go ahead operations first hand in the North East there do rather well refurbishing older buses etc so the company had decent mix of new and used stock. I know some people from the north east and there cant tell the difference between new stock and the 10 year stock because there been given some TLC. I would be surprised if there started to not give some extra TLC to older stock.

Remember Go South Coast just won the "Top Shire operator" at the UK bus awards which makes you wonder if there can win that while vacating a fair bit of territory, then how did they win.

Thames travel troubles was more to do with its Commercial side of its operations, it even said it was due to " limited resources" Ie lack of drivers and lack of usable buses in service which lead to numerous issues with certain services. One hopes this has now been sorted out.

Surely you agree some of the purchase where over priced?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes I have seen some of the Go ahead operations first hand in the North East there do rather well refurbishing older buses etc so the company had decent mix of new and used stock. I know some people from the north east and there cant tell the difference between new stock and the 10 year stock because there been given some TLC. I would be surprised if there started to not give some extra TLC to older stock.

Remember Go South Coast just won the "Top Shire operator" at the UK bus awards which makes you wonder if there can win that while vacating a fair bit of territory, then how did they win.

Thames travel troubles was more to do with its Commercial side of its operations, it even said it was due to " limited resources" Ie lack of drivers and lack of usable buses in service which lead to numerous issues with certain services. One hopes this has now been sorted out.

Surely you agree some of the purchase where over priced?

So when you were talking about Thames Travel, you hadn't actually seen that operation? They may have had some cancellations from what you may have seen on FB or Twitter but that does not adequately show the picture.

Go South Coast have vacated territory but that isn't what Top Shire Operator is about. It is about the quality of the operations you do have, NOT what you have got rid of. In fact, by not running a hinterland of tendered or extremely marginal stuff, it means that they can focus on those operations that do can and do make money.

In fact, the reasons for the award have been provided in that whilst their operations have reduced, they have increased patronage overall (excl. the Damory retraction and Thamesdown purchase) by 13% organically, the quality of publicity including tracking, the extent of Wifi and NSAs across the fleet and the professional way that they absorbed the Thamesdown purchase. That is how they won

The price of any purchase is determinant on a number of factors (e.g. value of assets, profitability, purchase price, and the inherent "goodwill" and how much they wanted them) and I don't know what they all were. Therefore, I can't say if they were overpriced. Anglian may well have been realistically priced (remember that the proprietor was looking to sell as he was seriously ill) but subsequently mismanaged?

As for Go North East, I can tell you from first hand experience. I am an exiled North Easterner and they have some modern and very smart vehicles. They also have some dogs (e.g. the Solars especially) that lurch, pitch, roll and rattle incessantly. They also like to purchase (amongst the Citaros) lightweight single decks like Streetlites and Versas. It is a mixed bag and, as I say, they are declining in the North East and that's despite being a good operator overall.

 

[Volvodart]

It looks like the new First Aircoach coaches are not far away, as one was seen alongside an Arriva Enviro400MMC publicity photo from a few days ago.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Go Ahead's London ops are a mixed bag. The depots/routes from the old London Central/London General area tend to be well run (Merton and Putney depots in particular), the only negative I really have with them are those rancid MCV double deckers they're apparently standardising on

Their ops in East London though are really bad. They've ran the 147 into the ground (always seems to be loads of buses on layover at each end), and are starting to do the same thing with the 5 and 115. Stagecoach did a fantastic job on these routes, and get *rewarded* by losing them en masse. Long live the TFL tender system.

The 193 in Romford still largely makes do with ancient Marshall bodied Darts, with no replacement in sight. These buses were battered beyond belief by 2012, how they've lasted another 5 years probably involves some sort of black magic.

 

[overthewater]

It was well documented in more just Twitter/Fb, papers and other media outlets about the troubles at Thames travels, but thankful it seems to have sorted itself out. Im sure there had PI aswell. Can anyone remember that?


In for a penny this one: I'll still question Go South Coast since A: its mix bag of service not under one brand/companies , B: They beat Stagecoach East Scotland. Strangely there not vacating a fair bit of territory and in fact still covers the same places over the last 10 years,( Yes there made cuts but just like Midland bluebird. Both are expanding and also revised some of the cuts made)

If that the reason why some companies win then I disagree the merits. Midland bluebird Should have won then, there overhauled the company, there got more passengers, there put in more new buses, there got more wifi, expanded new routes, more branded and leaflets etc , new ticket machines etc... never got a look in. ( hecek if the talk is correct even more cuts that were made might just get revised)

I think companies like Trent barton and Blazefire get less flac of cutting its network because there high end product.

Also you can't complain about the lightweight single decks - Streetlites, I hate them aswell but there miles to the gallon is in double figures and than come from one of the engineering people.

 

[DragonEast]

I think the East has always been the poor relation with all transport. It doesn't "go anywhere" so perhaps not that surprising. (The ports don't help them, we have always thought more of the electorate with votes than industry without. And apart from the turkeys (not a pun, but it could be), what industry would we be talking about?)

First Essex too seem to be struggling. Their efforts to do "more with less" seem to have led them into a right mess, with congestion, passenger and driver dissatisfaction at all time highs; and vehicle and service unreliability which their constant timetable tweaks and rota changes haven't done anything to alleviate. Everything is suffering equally as they constantly struggle to make ends meet. Drivers and passengers are deserting, perhaps in droves. It's going to need more than a lick of paint, or the desperate efforts of the Norwich unit at PR with, it seems, no support from the local management. My guess is it'll be less planning, more panic when it comes, which surely can't be far off. (Everybody has problems, I know; but it's not so much the problems as how you deal with them. First Essex don't).

With luck we have some decent small operators, ready and willing. If First didn't have this local addiction to trying to gobble everything.

PS I hesitate to say this because I will be shouted down; but reading of the problems (or alleged problems) elsewhere, I wonder if anyone experiences a bus company as bad as First Essex? It's not just individual routes, or cuts per se (in fact as far as they have an answer it's to throw everything at the network indiscriminately including, it seems, the kitchen sink by the state of some of their buses); and the rot - the inability to provide a decent service at any level of operation - seems to run through the whole business. It seems that stick it out as a useless bus driver, and you'll get promoted (out of the way, I presume) to management. The good drivers give up in despair, as do the passengers when they can. Whilst the management imitate the Three Monkeys: hands over their ears, so they hear nothing; hands over their eyes so they see nothing; and hands over their mouths so they communicate nothing. And everything goes to rack and ruin as the poor workers simply can't cope with what is expected of them. If management is about matching resources to demands, which seems to be what the complaints are about elsewhere; then it's mismanagement, pure and simple.

EDIT 2: seeing what other people say though, I am left wondering if following neighbouring Eastern Counties success in perhaps halting the Go-Ahead bandwagon, FEx might have got carried away and knackered themselves in trying to keep services out of the hands of G-A?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It was well documented in more just Twitter/Fb, papers and other media outlets about the troubles at Thames travels, but thankful it seems to have sorted itself out. Im sure there had PI aswell. Can anyone remember that?


In for a penny this one: I'll still question Go South Coast since A: its mix bag of service not under one brand/companies , B: They beat Stagecoach East Scotland. Strangely there not vacating a fair bit of territory and in fact still covers the same places over the last 10 years,( Yes there made cuts but just like Midland bluebird. Both are expanding and also revised some of the cuts made)

If that the reason why some companies win then I disagree the merits. Midland bluebird Should have won then, there overhauled the company, there got more passengers, there put in more new buses, there got more wifi, expanded new routes, more branded and leaflets etc , new ticket machines etc... never got a look in. ( hecek if the talk is correct even more cuts that were made might just get revised)

I think companies like Trent barton and Blazefire get less flac of cutting its network because there high end product.

Also you can't complain about the lightweight single decks - Streetlites, I hate them aswell but there miles to the gallon is in double figures and than come from one of the engineering people.

Sorry but you're still not getting it. Being blunt - how can you comment on something you've not experienced?? At best, you're reheating other peoples comments etc without knowing how accurate or not they are (which is why I pulled you up about the Soton bus blog)

I can't comment on whether Midland Bluebird are better because, hey, I've not been on them for about 4 years. However, I can comment on Go South Coast having enjoyed days out on Southern Vectis, BlueStar, Salisbury Reds and Damory in recent times. They are a very good set of businesses. They may have a number of identities.... So what? They have managed to organically grow their business very impressively (so much for the oft trotted out network benefits). Perhaps some of the MB improvements came too late for the judges? Perhaps not consistent enough?

The way in which the UK bus operator of the year is judged is not on how much territory is retained or ceded.... Working on that basis, First Kernow would be the best given how they have dislodged Western Greyhound and even some of Stagecoach. It is on service delivery and, on that basis, Go South Coast is very good.

Similarly, Thames Travel are pretty good and their services from Reading to Oxford keep going from strength to strength. Yes, they've lost a lot of services and their Solos have headed to the North East but that is because of the decision (despite David Cameron's mother intervening) to axe the majority of bus services. If I were to be judgemental, on my own experience, Carousel is the weaker of the firms but that isn't too surprising when you see the traffic conditions in places like Marlow and Wycombe, and also the difficulty of getting and retaining staff in a very expensive part of the world to live in.

I wasn't complaining about the Streetlites but perhaps highlighting that Go North East have had to sacrifice a bit of quality in specifying them instead of Citaros.

TrentBarton probably do get less stick for withdrawals because their general quality; who are Blazefire, by the way?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It looks like the new First Aircoach coaches are not far away, as one was seen alongside an Arriva Enviro400MMC publicity photo from a few days ago.

How many are they getting? What type as well?

 

[overthewater]

Sorry but you're still not getting it. Being blunt - how can you comment on something you've not experienced?? At best, you're reheating other peoples comments etc without knowing how accurate or not they are (which is why I pulled you up about the Soton bus blog)

As I said it come from the horse's mouth ie the company, who admitted there had trouble a while back and it was picked up with media etc. Thankful there rip it up and started again, as your mention their operations on the Abingdon and wallingford routes are doing better now adays.

I can't comment on whether Midland Bluebird are better because, hey, I've not been on them for about 4 years. However, I can comment on Go South Coast having enjoyed days out on Southern Vectis, BlueStar, Salisbury Reds and Damory in recent times. They are a very good set of businesses. They may have a number of identities.... So what? They have managed to organically grow their business very impressively (so much for the oft trotted out network benefits). Perhaps some of the MB improvements came too late for the judges? Perhaps not consistent enough?

Because they're all separate business? It seems there not. Turns out I was mis-given I have to put my hands up. "GO SOUTH COAST LIMITED" is the actually overhead company with full control of the accounts etc thus there only one business and not a collection of, which Is the main reason why I raised an eyebrow, ie Fle on the back of the dog. I had to wonder where all the brands at the same level?

Similarly, Thames Travel are pretty good and their services from Reading to Oxford keep going from strength to strength. Yes, they've lost a lot of services and their Solos have headed to the North East but that is because of the decision (despite David Cameron's mother intervening) to axe the majority of bus services. If I were to be judgemental, on my own experience, Carousel is the weaker of the firms but that isn't too surprising when you see the traffic conditions in places like Marlow and Wycombe, and also the difficulty of getting and retaining staff in a very expensive part of the world to live in.

I still wonder why Thames travel and OBC has not just merged into brand? I dare say there have different terms and conditions and different pay rates.

I wasn't complaining about the Streetlites but perhaps highlighting that Go North East have had to sacrifice a bit of quality in specifying them instead of Citaros.

That the way the world is going as we been hammered into us. As you said there passengers ets are declining in the North East and anyways to save pennies reluctantly needs to be used. I'm not sure if the Streetlites could see an improvement in quality without increase its weight or reducing its high fuel savings.

TrentBarton probably do get less stick for withdrawals because their general quality; who are Blazefire, by the way?

That should be Blazefield, I blame Autocorrect.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As I said it come from the horse's mouth ie the company, who admitted there had trouble a while back and it was picked up with media etc. Thankful there rip it up and started again, as your mention their operations on the Abingdon and wallingford routes are doing better now adays.



Because they're all separate business? It seems there not. Turns out I was mis-given I have to put my hands up. "GO SOUTH COAST LIMITED" is the actually overhead company with full control of the accounts etc thus there only one business and not a collection of, which Is the main reason why I raised an eyebrow, ie Fle on the back of the dog. I had to wonder where all the brands at the same level?



I still wonder why Thames travel and OBC has not just merged into brand? I dare say there have different terms and conditions and different pay rates.



That the way the world is going as we been hammered into us. As you said there passengers ets are declining in the North East and anyways to save pennies reluctantly needs to be used. I'm not sure if the Streetlites could see an improvement in quality without increase its weight or reducing its high fuel savings.



That should be Blazefield, I blame Autocorrect.

I'll remind you what you said "Go ahead seems to be very hit and miss of the past few years, there keep winning awards yet at the same time make stupid purchase, and also operate some highly questionable companies Likes thames travel" - you now accept that Thames Travel is not a highly questionable company? In fact, having googled various phrases, I can't seem to find any mention of a PI with the Traffic Commissioner? Perhaps they are more honest in their social media in explaining any cancellations and remember, a lack of resources could simply be a driver going off sick!

The reason why Thames Travel hasn't been merged into OBC is two fold. Different T&Cs with staff and also to what benefit? The Oxford fleet with multiple route IDs and they share back office functions anyway. Why call it OBC (when it serves a lot more than just Oxford) and both brands are well respected?

Appreciate you realise your error with GSC but, in future, I'd guard against commenting on stuff that you haven't actually experienced.

BTW, it's Transdev! Blazefield doesn't really exist anymore except largely as a legal entity

 

[overthewater]

I'll remind you what you said "Go ahead seems to be very hit and miss of the past few years, there keep winning awards yet at the same time make stupid purchase, and also operate some highly questionable companies Likes thames travel" - you now accept that Thames Travel is not a highly questionable company? In fact, having googled various phrases, I can't seem to find any mention of a PI with the Traffic Commissioner? Perhaps they are more honest in their social media in explaining any cancellations and remember, a lack of resources could simply be a driver going off sick!

It seems Thames Travel has turned it around thus it's not longer a highly questionable company, which has to be good for all. There did have their troubles,( and the brand was kind of basically Mud because of its troubles) it could be going on few years instead of the within "X time period" (I must be getting old) I still think Go ahead is a bit hit and miss. It's the same companies that keep on winning/nominated while other parts well dont get a look in, and I do think there paid too much for certain companies there brought over within recent times, its all linked to East Anglia. It's been noted of issues already and cut and burn of brands and mergers

Appreciate you realise your error with GSC but, in future, I'd guard against commenting on stuff that you haven't actually experienced.

That just leaves all of Scotland, Tyne and wear, Lincolnshire, and strangely First Essex and its Independents, - there a few scottish areas in that part of the world and farmfoods which still had the polar bears in them well past their sell by date

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It seems Thames Travel has turned it around thus it's not longer a highly questionable company, which has to be good for all. There did have their troubles,( and the brand was kind of basically Mud because of its troubles) it could be going on few years instead of the within "X time period" (I must be getting old) I still think Go ahead is a bit hit and miss. It's the same companies that keep on winning/nominated while other parts well dont get a look in, and I do think there paid too much for certain companies there brought over within recent times, its all linked to East Anglia. It's been noted of issues already and cut and burn of brands and mergers

That just leaves all of Scotland, Tyne and wear, Lincolnshire, and strangely First Essex and its Independents, - there a few scottish areas in that part of the world and farmfoods which still had the polar bears in them well past their sell by date

Sorry but I can't see any trace of a PI - you'll be sure to post a link

Also, you think they paid too much for certain companies.... Which companies and how much did they pay for them?

There is a difference between overpaying for a business, and paying the right price for a business but then mismanaging it!

Sorry but I just find it hard to believe that someone can form an accurate picture of firms in Southern England from their home in Central Scotland and not having experienced them but instead spending too much time scavenging around on Tw@tter/Farcebook or various local rags. If you've got the time, head south and experience them in person - you may well see why they are so lauded!

 

[Robertj21a]

It seems Thames Travel has turned it around thus it's not longer a highly questionable company, which has to be good for all. There did have their troubles,( and the brand was kind of basically Mud because of its troubles) it could be going on few years instead of the within "X time period" (I must be getting old) I still think Go ahead is a bit hit and miss. It's the same companies that keep on winning/nominated while other parts well dont get a look in, and I do think there paid too much for certain companies there brought over within recent times, its all linked to East Anglia. It's been noted of issues already and cut and burn of brands and mergers

That just leaves all of Scotland, Tyne and wear, Lincolnshire, and strangely First Essex and its Independents, - there a few scottish areas in that part of the world and farmfoods which still had the polar bears in them well past their sell by date

I have to say that, not for the first time, I can't understand all of that. Even so, can you go into a little more detail about all the problems you're aware of at Thames Travel ?

 

[Volvodart]

Sorry but I just find it hard to believe that someone can form an accurate picture of firms in Southern England from their home in Central Scotland and not having experienced them but instead spending too much time scavenging around on Tw@tter/Farcebook or various local rags. If you've got the time, head south and experience them in person - you may well see why they are so lauded!

You missed out Flickr!

 

[overthewater]

Sorry but I can't see any trace of a PI - you'll be sure to post a link

I will have a good look for it. I'm sure there got pulled up in some from.

Also, you think they paid too much for certain companies.... Which companies and how much did they pay for them? There is a difference between overpaying for a business, and paying the right price for a business but then mismanaging it!

You're waiting for the fact some of them were "undisclosed sum".. ..... but with the cutback etc and the reduction in fleets around Go ahead East anglia, it really should be ask why buy them in the first place with all this trouble coming down the line.

Sorry but I just find it hard to believe that someone can form an accurate picture of firms in Southern England from their home in Central Scotland and not having experienced them but instead spending too much time scavenging around on Tw@tter/Farcebook or various local rags. If you've got the time, head south and experience them in person - you may well see why they are so lauded!

I don't check the local rags, If someone posts a link to them then I will take a wee peck. Mind you Ive not used Twit for that, maybe I should i I have headed south, and seen some parts; while of course not all parts. But then again some people might visit places on the worst possible week? and think "they're crap" That possible even if you visit the so called holy grail "Edinburgh". Of course what some people might highly praise other might think differently, because everyone's standards are different ( i wonder if that were some conflict appears). Personnel expression V "views and looks from other people" can give a much better balance of a situation.

That life, and that's a forum for you everyone has different views , I always think if you're not or yourself not being highly questioned about points then there either very tame, pointless or add nothing thus it's not a forum its blog. I alway get the feeling certain gets whitewashed and that a dangerous thing to happen. I bet people will look back at Western greyhound with open hands. The reason I'm in this hole is because I made the point that Go-ahead are not the 100% gold standard and have their problems as well, which clearly there do. Although you something substantial to back it up ie meat on the bone. You dont want sweeping statements or views like enron.

I was going make a few other points about the last few pages but I dare say it's best to carry like rod stewart or enya, hopefully reaching the caribbean blue

I have to say that, not for the first time, I can't understand all of that. Even so, can you go into a little more detail about all the problems you're aware of at Thames Travel ?

Two points:
* The company was short of buses and drivers and had to miss servies out curtail services etc that was basically the story, it's not the first nor it will be the last company this will effect. There was clearly some problems, which were not helped by the fact OBC moved servies into Thames travel over the past couple/several years (rearrange the oxfordshire operations) and then it come to a crunch. It seems to have been whitewashed away.
* When this all take place, that the bigger Q; My mind wants to believe it was within the last 18months, but it starting to look like it may have been 2015. I'm dreading to think where the time has gone over the last two years. The point again was to highlight that Go-Ahead wasn't the bees-knees and there was some mismanaging within the operations.

You missed out Flickr!

I hope you have the right user, because I've checked the comments I've made for the last year + and there not in england.

 

[Blackpudding]

A rather big list of cancellations has gone through Vosa for First today.

Weymouth - 14, 5, X52
West of England - 171, 175
Southampton - 12
Slough - 15, 5, 702, legoland shuttle 200, 10/11

Slough - 2 was cancelled today with effect from 30th January

 

[nesw]

The latest TfL LSP details First Slough routes to Heathrow and in addition to the above - 7/N7 - Daytime reduced from every 10 to every 15 mins & reduced night service. 8 - Night service withdrawn.

 

[cactustwirly]

Slough - 2 was cancelled today with effect from 30th January

Here's a route map for Berkshire.

https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/maps/Slough Network Map - 25 November 2017.pdf

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Let's tick these off.....

You say that Go Ahead overpaid but concede that you don't know actually how much they paid. So how you can say that Go Ahead have overpaid, lord knows. FWIW, at least two of the operators they bought in the East were looking to retire so the prices paid may well reflect willing sellers.

Whether Thames Travel were poor in the past... well, there's a PI that you can't find. Plus a load of tweets that you can't find. However, as I say, some firms will communicate any delay or missing journey; working on that basis, firms that don't post such information must be better? However, you weren't talking about the dim and distant past "Go ahead seems to be very hit and miss of the past few years, there keep winning awards yet at the same time make stupid purchase, and also operate some highly questionable companies Likes thames travel" - current tense and sorry, you are wrong. They are a decent firm - not questionable.

"That life, and that's a forum for you everyone has different views , I always think if you're not or yourself not being highly questioned about points then there either very tame, pointless or add nothing thus it's not a forum its blog. I alway get the feeling certain gets whitewashed and that a dangerous thing to happen. I bet people will look back at Western greyhound with open hands. The reason I'm in this hole is because I made the point that Go-ahead are not the 100% gold standard and have their problems as well, which clearly there do. Although you something substantial to back it up ie meat on the bone. You dont want sweeping statements or views like enron. "

Lord knows what Enron has to do with anyone? Your point just doesn't wash. If you want the right of free speech on a forum, you have a responsibility not to post inaccurate tosh and spurious, unfounded opinion. Far more dangerous than whitewashing!!

I really don't get your Western Greyhound reference seeing as much of the territory is now First Kernow rather than Go South Coast? However, if you want to know, I can assure you that whilst Western Greyhound was a good company, it was apparent (when travelling on said firm in 2012) that standards were slipping. By 2013 (again travelling on said firm), that decline was really, really apparent with gaffer taped Varios and missing journeys. Again, your views are based on experience........?

However, if your simple point is that groups have a weaker part.... Well, yes, since time in memoriam! If you look at any group, they will have businesses in less profitable areas or even weaker depots in the same firm.

Opinions without demonstrable facts (and actually factual inaccuracies) are nothing more than Fake News

 

[KendalKing]

Go Ahead's London ops are a mixed bag. The depots/routes from the old London Central/London General area tend to be well run (Merton and Putney depots in particular)

I used to work for Go-Ahead London at Merton Depot, a few years ago!, and was by far the best Company/Depot that I have ever worked at.

 

[DragonEast]

Sorry, I thought this thread was about First Bus not Go-Ahead?

But to get back to my question. Is anyone in a First Bus area where First Bus aren't jettisoning or running down services? I'd be interested to know which area it is. For all their faults the others in my area (East Anglia/northern Home Counties) - Go-Ahead, Arriva and Stagecoach are all investing and whilst there are cutbacks, they are improving services, significantly. I can't say the same of the local First. Falling to bits looks like a better description (even coming from the horse's mouth, and disregarding the ever-moaning twitterati - although I should naively have thought that if you are running a bus service the views of your public do matter, though perhaps not to those with better knowledge of the industry).

PS yes I have thought of cashless payments, but I'm not sure that is an alternative to a reliable well-maintained fleet.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sorry, I thought this thread was about First Bus not Go-Ahead?

But to get back to my question. Is anyone in a First Bus area where First Bus aren't jettisoning or running down services? I'd be interested to know which area it is. For all their faults the others in my area (East Anglia/northern Home Counties) - Go-Ahead, Arriva and Stagecoach are all investing and whilst there are cutbacks, they are improving services, significantly. I can't say the same of the local First. Falling to bits looks like a better description (even coming from the horse's mouth, and disregarding the ever-moaning twitterati - although I should naively have thought that if you are running a bus service the views of your public do matter, though perhaps not to those with better knowledge of the industry).

Leeds ? Bristol ? Leicester ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Leeds ? Bristol ? Leicester ?

Bristol has a little tweak to remove a bit of duplication.

Don’t think Kernow is getting cuts, nor BoS.

Thought FHDB was one of the better performing firms but who knows what inter group adjustments are behind that.

 

[Volvodart]

Depends what they have got to cut to meet the savings target from head office. Some areas may have made all the cuts to make in back office before. Kernow is a special case as it is the model that First want to show for areas where the local authority support them. If First are speeding up journey times to cut pvr as they did in Aberdeen, it might not be apparent what is happening.

 

[DragonEast]

I think the cuts to meet savings targets are key. And that's the point. Everyone has to make savings (and it's been a constant issue over decades, everywhere), but the point is to do it in a way that ensures that savings do not seriously affect service reliability and quality of core services (where the income and profits come from) otherwise they can become self-defeating, and the business can get in a spiral of decline. It seems to me that First (unlike others) have nothing between the demands of accountants at head office and local management to stop that happening. Good management will struggle to prevent it, OK, but nothing makes good management inevitable, nor makes it inevitable that even good management can prevent it, no matter what.

EDIT We have perhaps a local example: shifts have changed, a brilliant way of making savings it would seem; but drivers are leaving as a consequence and the serious shortage of drivers disproportionately affects the busier routes with more buses. The sparsely used subsidised rural buses have to be protected due to contract requirements. The paying passengers are threatening desertion. No-one foresaw that, presumably! Interestingly, though (despite all the criticism I'll leveled at them lately) a couple of years ago First Essex announced that announced service changes would mostly be for timetable reliability reasons, and so far they've been as good as their word, even up to the latest announcement today for January!

EDIT2: Generally it seems to me that First Bus are allowed to grow like topsy, and fail to do their sensible pruning in summer, necessitating a winter slash-and-burn. What the consequences will be when they become apparent in spring, no-one knows.

I know that First are looking to local authority support (like every poor business). Except in Kernow, however, aren't there strong competitors to every other operation where such support is forthcoming, and what makes First Bus such a strong contender in a competitive environment? (And, in the old adage, isn't local authority support more a sticking plaster than a heart transplant?)

On a larger issue are there any implications for First Group from Trump's tax measures (assuming they get through)? I don't know where they book US profits but if they were repatriated and particularly if it became in their interest to be a US company, why would they stick with First Bus? It always looks to me like a legacy business, certainly not going anywhere. (I've mentioned before that presumably they have to live with the devotees of Animal Farm at the Competition Commission who seem to have made it their first rule that Four Legs Better, but I'm not sure even their powers extend to keeping a lame duck in business).

 

[overthewater]

What happens if these cost cuttings don't work? You can only cut back office once (or the way its going, there just be one MD etc for all of First UK bus). You can only cut the network so far..

 

[DragonEast]

What happens if these cost cuttings don't work? You can only cut back office once ( or the way it be going there just be one MD for all of First uk bus). You can only cut the network so far..

They buy you time until something else comes along, but will it be the paying punters (and which ones)?

 

[Robertj21a]

What happens if these cost cuttings don't work? You can only cut back office once (or the way its going, there just be one MD etc for all of First UK bus). You can only cut the network so far..

You try to find a buyer......

 

[overthewater]

You said it not me.