First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

The B7RLEs on service 5 have been refurbed - the 55 reg B7s had the leather stripped out of them and replaced with fabric and the 54 reg B7s had their fabric replaced. Even the solo in Bath that was repainted has had a refurb - now with leather seats.

They certainly weren't done on repaint. I remember seeing 66722 and thinking that it was a shame that they hadn't done it - https://flic.kr/p/Si2J7f

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed but the big numbers fleet wise are in both full sized single and deckers so a nice little windfall if you needed one.

Absolutely.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If we take the fleet as being 6,200 buses (annual accounts 2016), then you can look at it two ways.

Keep the fleet in a 'steady state' and reduce the annual order from 413 to 364 buses. (6,200 / 15 years or 17 years expected life).

Or keep the annual order at 413 buses but take a two year investment holiday.

A combination of the two would appear to be what is happening, on the quiet. Hopefully investors / financiers won't notice!

If your strategic plan is to exit, or at least withdraw substantially from weaker market areas, reducing the order size to meet your expected future fleet size rather than your current fleet size is sensible.

I'll leave it to the fleet list spreadsheeters to work out the exact proportions of full size vs smaller bus types, their date of entry into service and thus future dates for withdrawal and how well current orders match the steady state replacement profile.

 

[Robertj21a]

Agreed. The last full set of Accounts (2016) referred to the changes re depreciation, so First's profits would have been 'enhanced' accordingly. Since there's not been the usual announcement of new bus orders for the UK as a whole this year I assume that they will use the (presumably) lower numbers to further enhance the figures again this year.

I wonder how the profits would have looked without this tweaking.....

 

[F Great Eastern]

Unconfirmed reports that the delivery of new coaches for the Belfast Aircoach route have been delayed.

 

[THarris123]

Some B9s are due to move to South Wales from Leeds. These will release Darts to Port Talbot and release Streetlites up to Leeds (or West Yorkshire).

3 are due to come down this weekend.

(Info taken from Facebook)

 

[F Great Eastern]

Two Aircoach Caetano Levantes (ex First Cymru) have moved to Glasgow.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Some B9s are due to move to South Wales from Leeds. These will release Darts to Port Talbot and release Streetlites up to Leeds (or West Yorkshire).

3 are due to come down this weekend.

(Info taken from Facebook)

Conflicting information on this but 10 or 12 mentioned (thought to be 10) and that these may be 2012 examples.

Interesting to know which route that these are going - speculation that it may be the 4 but that is similarly also contradicted!

Still, been some time that there have been many deckers with Cymru - mainly confined to the Neath Valley schools that were at Pontardawe

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If your strategic plan is to exit, or at least withdraw substantially from weaker market areas, reducing the order size to meet your expected future fleet size rather than your current fleet size is sensible.

Judging by the rejects that FWY use on the 548/549 (Halifax - Brighouse - Huddersfield) and the 579 (Halifax - Sowerby) then I wouldn't be too suprised if First are planning on either giving up the routes or pulling out of Halifax.

This is just speculation though.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Judging by the rejects that FWY use on the 548/549 (Halifax - Brighouse - Huddersfield) and the 579 (Halifax - Sowerby) then I wouldn't be too suprised if First are planning on either giving up the routes or pulling out of Halifax.

This is just speculation though.

The worst fleet has to go somewhere though!

 

[Volvodart]

Two Aircoach Caetano Levantes (ex First Cymru) have moved to Glasgow.

Probably for the Aberdeen coaching unit.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Probably for the Aberdeen coaching unit.

23501 06D120305 FJ56 OBO
23502 06D120303 FJ56 PFG

Weird that they went to Glasgow though rather than Aberdeen unless it's a stop-over.

I guess the other two still with Aircoach may follow later.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The worst fleet has to go somewhere though!

True. I would have thought that they could be used for schools and works services.

 

[Andyh82]

True. I would have thought that they could be used for schools and works services.

The 579 in Halifax has always had the oldest buses on it, it was the last place to see step entrance Olympians until not long ago. The 548/549 gets a standard Halifax mix of single deckers, Eclipse Urbans and Renowns.

 

[317 forever]

Start of a new phase for First tomorrow when they take up South Western Railway in conjunction with MTR.

While they took sole control of TPE last year, this is their most notable expansion for some time.

 

[winston270twm]

First Group has made a small acquisition via First Student in Chicago, the first acquisition by the group for some time:
http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2017/21-08-17.aspx

 

[overthewater]

First Group has made a small acquisition via First Student in Chicago, the first acquisition by the group for some time:
http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2017/21-08-17.aspx

I think this was always on the cards, not the company per say just expanding in the USA market. Just a shame the UK bus market can't be the same,

If First still has T, X and Y Reg in service then surely it can't be a 17 year limite?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think this was always on the cards, not the company per say just expanding in the USA market. Just a shame the UK bus market can't be the same,

If First still has T, X and Y Reg in service then surely it can't be a 17 year limite?

UK - why would you? Aside from downward pressures, why buy something that is then franchised, you may not get it and you get no compensation for that?

As for 17 years, think you may have misinterpreted something there. First announced that they were changing the depreciation period for vehicles (selected types) from 15 to 17 years.

First Bristol have just refurbished some 2001/2 ex Leicester B7TLs with a view to getting another 4 or 5 years service (albeit that they won't be working in Bristol then)

 

[Robertj21a]

I think this was always on the cards, not the company per say just expanding in the USA market. Just a shame the UK bus market can't be the same,

If First still has T, X and Y Reg in service then surely it can't be a 17 year limite?

There's no 17 year limit.

 

[winston270twm]

I think this was always on the cards, not the company per say just expanding in the USA market. Just a shame the UK bus market can't be the same,

If First still has T, X and Y Reg in service then surely it can't be a 17 year limite?

I was referring more to the fact that First Group appear to be in the position to expand, even if only a relatively small acquisition. First need to sort out financial performance at their existing UK bus businesses before they even entertain growing through acquisition

 

[overthewater]

I was referring more to the fact that First Group appear to be in the position to expand, even if only a relatively small acquisition. First need to sort out financial performance at their existing UK bus businesses before they even entertain growing through acquisition

I thought there had after 5 years.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

First Glasgow have now revamped the X85/X87 and route branded the E400MMCs as 'First Xpress' offering a 6 minute frequency in the morning peak and every 15 minutes thereafter...

More info here.

 

[overthewater]

First Glasgow have now revamped the X85/X87 and route branded the E400MMCs as 'First Xpress' offering a 6 minute frequency in the morning peak and every 15 minutes thereafter...

More info here.

With talk of more routes getting rebranded, Thank you Mr Javis.

Lets see if the X3 can get the same treatment.

 

[THarris123]

Interesting that York has been awarded funding for 24 electric buses. Would these be with First York? Optares?
What routes would they be on and what will be cascaded out of York?

 

[brompton rail]

itv have this article about the new vehicles, both decker and saloons.
http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2017-08-28/york-to-have-countrys-first-fully-electric-park-ride-fleet/

Further details here:
https://cbwmagazine.com/yorks-new-park-and-ride-is-electric/

The BBC article picture says that is one of the existing electric park and ride buses.

Must take a trip to York to try electric park & ride, last time I used them they weren't electric.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Interesting that York has been awarded funding for 24 electric buses. Would these be with First York? Optares?
What routes would they be on and what will be cascaded out of York?

Most likley that the 24 could be Optares, since the production line is only down the road in Sherburn. As far as I know the routes are split across City services and Park and Ride services.

The York City routes are the 1 - Chapelfields to Wigginton, 4 - City Centre to Acomb, 5 - Strensall to Acomb, 6 - Clifton Moor to UoY, 10 - Poppleton to Stamford Bridge, 11 - Ashley Park to Bishopthorpe, 12/14 - Foxwood Lane to Monks Cross / Haxby.

The park and ride routes are the 2 - Rawcliffe Bar, 3 - Askham Bar, 7 - Designer Outlet, 8 - Grimston Bar, 9 - Monks Cross and the 59 - Poppleton Bar.

A mate of mine did say to me that the CoYC may be wanting First to use deckers on the park and rides.

 

[Andyh82]

When the new Park & Ride contract was announced a few months ago, it was said that the new fleet would be

11 Existing Electric Optare Versas
18 NEW Enviro400MMC
6 NEW Mercedes Benz Citaro Artics
3 NEW Electric Metrodeckers

Today's announcement upgrades the 24 new buses also to be electric.

It will be interesting what the 6 electric single deckers are, do they do electric bendybuses? These are for the Rawcliffe Bar 2 which passes under a low bridge

 

[overthewater]

Daft Question: Could we still see a First bus order at some point even if it covers April 2017 - April 2019 period? but the buses are all put off until after arriving in April 2018 onwards

 

[Volvodart]

I have already mentioned this here!

 

[DragonEast]

I thought they said it all in the 2017 Annual Report business review for First Bus: Bus services will continue to play a critical role in any local transport strategy that recognises the problems of congestion, air quality, parking and issues of social exclusion. Our objective is to continue to focus our investment and energy on local markets where these imperatives are recognised and our customers and the communities we serve have the most to gain from our services.

No biggins turn investment then. Invest when they have to, because the LAs demand it (and pull their weight!) Hence, Bristol and York. Not . . . well I leave that to everyone else . . .