First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

What I mean is there are plenty of people queing up in Lanarkshire to take over anything First wishes to no longer operate Ie the saying . North Lanarkshire is pretty bad for congestion and the network has been in a poor state for a while.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What I mean is there are plenty of people queing up in Lanarkshire to take over anything First wishes to no longer operate Ie the saying . North Lanarkshire is pretty bad for congestion and the network has been in a poor state for a while.

Lanarkshire has long been a localised hotbed of small indies working at the margins - rather like the eastern Welsh valleys. However, you'd be wrong to extrapolate that localised view to a national picture.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

FGW,

That sums up First's position pretty well, and in the current climate it's even harder to turn around UK Bus than it would have been a few years back. Ultimately UK Bus has since paid the price for the 2007 Laidlaw acquisition which clearly shows FGP had bitten off more they could chew and has strangled them ever since.... It's a damn good job NX rejected First Groups takeover bid in 2009, imagine what would of happened to First Group with having to sort of the then NX Group, which also would have bought with it another £1billion worth of debt. Lockhead's focus shifted to being the biggest, instead of being the best. Dean Finch has since done a stirling job to turn around NX's fortunes and his strategy has paid dividends with not having a large UK Bus op & only investing in low risk new business / bolt on acquisitions only etc.

May be First Group would have done better bidding for smaller/lower risk German Franchises, Singapore Bus Contracts etc

First Transit does just that in the US and Canada and is arguably the steadiest performer!

UK Bus was the cash cow returning double digit margins but, as you say, Moir was about being the biggest. As with any bovine, you have to feed it sufficiently or the yield will drop - that's what happened.

We all know the history and can speculate about what may have happened had they sold off Greyhound when they bought Laidlaw, or if they'd done x or y.

The here and now is that it is a tough world for bus operators and especially in areas that were once powerhouses and are now economically deprived. Add in congestion, Uber, cuts to concessionary schemes, and the loss of "bunce" of tendered work on evenings and Sundays and it's a mix that isn't too appealing.

 

[winston270twm]

First Transit does just that in the US and Canada and is arguably the steadiest performer!

UK Bus was the cash cow returning double digit margins but, as you say, Moir was about being the biggest. As with any bovine, you have to feed it sufficiently or the yield will drop - that's what happened.

We all know the history and can speculate about what may have happened had they sold off Greyhound when they bought Laidlaw, or if they'd done x or y.

The here and now is that it is a tough world for bus operators and especially in areas that were once powerhouses and are now economically deprived. Add in congestion, Uber, cuts to concessionary schemes, and the loss of "bunce" of tendered work on evenings and Sundays and it's a mix that isn't too appealing.

Yes I'm aware, obviously NX have picked upon that and are rapidly building up their Transit division.

I think First would do well to expand in Europe & further afield under similar low risk operating contract models such as Transit, these obviously require much smaller capital outlay / low bidding costs.

 

[Sybic26]

From memory between 2009 and 2011, First were part of a joint venture with Danish Railways . They also had bus operation in Germany. They sold the company, which operated 130 buses in the Rhineland-Pfalz region, in 2011 to Marwyn European Transport. The buses were painted in First Group livery, see:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/FirstGroup_Bus_in_Mannheim_101_9195.jpg

 

[winston270twm]

From memory between 2009 and 2011, First were part of a joint venture with Danish Railways . They also had bus operation in Germany. They sold the company, which operated 130 buses in the Rhineland-Pfalz region, in 2011 to Marwyn European Transport. The buses were painted in First Group livery, see:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/FirstGroup_Bus_in_Mannheim_101_9195.jpg

Thanks I was aware of the German Op, it never got any bigger than just the one acquisition, Marwyn was also owned by David Leeder a former First Group director.

Dating back to 2000 there was also New World First in Hong Kong which First Group had a stake in & sold.

 

[overthewater]

Lanarkshire has long been a localised hotbed of small indies working at the margins - rather like the eastern Welsh valleys. However, you'd be wrong to extrapolate that localised view to a national picture.

I should have made it clearer I was taking about the localised hotbed of North Lanarkshire, yet Mcgills seem to have hoovered a tone of stuff up and it seems there still on the haunt.

 

[winston270twm]

I should have made it clearer I was taking about the localised hotbed of North Lanarkshire, yet Mcgills seem to have hoovered a tone of stuff up and it seems there still on the haunt.

And McGill's are still expanding and growing profits:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC027238

 

[Volvodart]

Why all this talk of Glasgow 2 territory? It makes a reasonable (for First) profit. There are a lot of their companies making less profit than that, which would make more improvement to First's margin if they could sort them out.

 

[winston270twm]

Why all this talk of Glasgow 2 territory? It makes a reasonable (for First) profit. There are a lot of their companies making less profit than that, which would make more improvement to First's margin if they could sort them out.

Namely Manchester & South Yorkshire amongst others...

 

[overthewater]

Why all this talk of Glasgow 2 territory? It makes a reasonable (for First) profit. There are a lot of their companies making less profit than that, which would make more improvement to First's margin if they could sort them out.

Because there making cuts in FIG no2 while it's making all this money, plus there pulled out of Carluke and left that to JMB buses. While the Hamilton locals are just being reduced instead of being revised to try out other ideas.

Why make cuts if its making money?

 

[winston270twm]

Because there making cuts in FIG no2 while it's making all this money, plus there pulled out of Carluke and left that to JMB buses. While the Hamilton locals are just being reduced instead of being revised to try out other ideas.

Why make cuts if its making money?

I doubt they are making money, hence the cuts.

 

[overthewater]

I doubt they are making money, hence the cuts.

There are, the accounts say there, there making more money than FiG no1.

 

[THarris123]

Because there making cuts in FIG no2 while it's making all this money, plus there pulled out of Carluke and left that to JMB buses. While the Hamilton locals are just being reduced instead of being revised to try out other ideas.

Why make cuts if its making money?

Why make cuts? Really?

It'll boost profits. It might already be profitable, but there's savings that can be made to improve profitability further. They're doing it nationally all to improve profitability.

 

[winston270twm]

There are, the accounts say there, there making more money than FiG no1.

The routes being cut & left to other operators! :roll:

 

[smtglasgow]

First Glasgow No. 2 – like most other companies - makes its serious money from a few core routes. In Lanarkshire those would be the X11. 201, 240, 267 and the 266 out to Newmains. You just need to spend a bit of time in Motherwell and Hamilton to see that the other local routes are largely carrying fresh air. Remember as well that the single fares outside the Glasgow City zone are eye-wateringly high and that cross-border services into the city have higher Network day and weekly prices. No.2 also have the bulk of services from East Kilbride plus the Kirkintilloch routes and the One out to Clydebank and the Vale of Leven – all very busy and doubtless very profitable.

In First-land, Glasgow is a success story. But there is still the suspicion that Stagecoach could squeeze better margins AND the ageing fleet will have to be addressed somehow – and soon.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are, the accounts say there, there making more money than FiG no1.

The company may be profitable but why operate particular services that aren't? Perhaps these aren't even covering their direct costs, let alone making a profit or contribution to overhead?

 

[Robertj21a]

Because there making cuts in FIG no2 while it's making all this money, plus there pulled out of Carluke and left that to JMB buses. While the Hamilton locals are just being reduced instead of being revised to try out other ideas.

Why make cuts if its making money?

You have it the wrong way round. They are making money [from their core, profitable routes] by getting rid of the odds and ends that don't make a good enough contribution to profits.

 

[overthewater]

You have it the wrong way round. They are making money [from their core, profitable routes] by getting rid of the odds and ends that don't make a good enough contribution to profits.

Then it lets in the competition, makes there zone ticket less attractive etc same old cycle.

 

[Robertj21a]

Then it lets in the competition, makes there zone ticket less attractive etc same old cycle.

I'm sure that's possible, but a major operator (with shareholders to consider) can't, nowadays, afford to be a 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. Most of the big operators across the country are concentrating on their core routes, where they will obtain maximum profits. The quieter/local/less well used services may well end up with smaller operators who can still make a profit (through lower overheads).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Then it lets in the competition, makes there zone ticket less attractive etc same old cycle.

How many loss leaders can a business afford to have? There is a limit and you ask yourself what is the actual cost of doing it is?

 

[F Great Eastern]

First tried to expand a bit outside UK and the Americas but really didn't succeed very much, Ireland has been good at times but bad at others, very tough market.

 

[AB93]

New buses for York
6 x Mercedes-Benz Citaro G Bendibuses
18 x Double Decks (Type not known)
3 x Optare MetroDecker EV
8 x Single Decks (Type not known)

This is not correct.

 

[tombowell]

This is not correct.

Errrr, yes they are?! The managing director at First York has confirmed these.

 

[AB93]

Errrr, yes they are?! The managing director at First York has confirmed these.

They are not correct.

When and where has he confirmed it?

 

[KendalKing]

They are not correct.

It been reported in the trade press, and local newspapers.

 

[Volvodart]

It been reported in the trade press, and local newspapers.

Route One:-

http://www.route-one.net/articles/Bus_routes/First_wins_York_Park___Ride_contract__with_part_electric_bid

The new agreement will see electric buses - potentially the debut order for Optare’s MetroDecker EV - operating on three of the six routes, alongside new Euro 6 diesels.

First already operates 11 Optare Versa EV electric buses, new in 2014.

There will also be six new Euro 6 new-generation Citaro G articulated buses for the Rawcliffe Bar service, which passes under low bridges.

Coach and Bus Week:-

https://cbwmagazine.com/first-york-pr-contract-renewed/

The new partnership agreement will see electric buses operating on three of the six routes, with new ADL Enviro400 MMC Euro 6 diesel buses completing the Park & Ride fleet. First York has committed to contactless payments and next-stop announcements on the service.

A First spokesperson told CBW that the company is planning to continue using its electric Optare Versas on the Park & Ride fleet after they have undergone some slight upgrades. It is currently working on its plans for the existing Mercedes-Benz Citaros.

Marc Bichtemann, Managing Director at First York, said: “We will be trialling a new electric Optare Metrodecker over the next month with a view to introducing these to Monks Cross and Poppleton Bar in the New Year, as we continue to support the council in its aim to improve air quality by reducing emissions and encouraging car users to switch to bus travel.”

 

[THarris123]

Thinking about the York park and ride - there are currently 36 vehicles branded for park and ride in York (11101-11115, 49901-12, 69365-69373). If the electric versas are staying on the park and ride, then only 24 new vehicles will be required, unless of course the PVR is increasing. If the PVR isn't increasing then maybe the order is different?

 

[skyhigh]

Seen elsewhere that Leeds is due the first lot of 284 new buses, with deliveries this autumn for routes 1 and 6. Type unknown... how reliable this is I'm not sure

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Seen elsewhere that Leeds is due the first lot of 284 new buses, with deliveries this autumn for routes 1 and 6. Type unknown... how reliable this is I'm not sure

The 284 is correct but the split by year between 2017 and 2020 wasn't detailed