First Group: General Discussion

[FSW Official]

I was informed by several members of staff in BoS.

Names please...

...don't tell him Pike!

 

[THarris123]

Presumably, the parallel world of fantasy that is perennially evident on this forum.

You should become a comedian.

 

[THarris123]

Names please...

...don't tell him Pike!

Why would I reveal names? You don't reveal yourself on this forum, so why should I reveal any names. It was several members of staff. Not just from BoS either.

 

[FSW Official]

Why would I reveal names? You don't reveal yourself on this forum, so why should I reveal any names. It was several members of staff. Not just from BoS either.

It's a joke Tom
Haven't you seen Dad's Army?

 

[THarris123]

I wasn't mentioning Penzance.

Are you alleging that Mr Harris is deliberately putting forward incorrect information as a way of tricking you into correcting him with commercially sensitive accurate information......??

I report information that has been provided to me by several sources.

I do not in any manner try to trick people into revealing commercially sensitive information.

I'm still rather surprised that FSW responded to a comment of mine, something which I wasn't expecting at all.

 

[THarris123]

It's a joke Tom
Haven't you seen Dad's Army?

I was referring to the response of "Names please"

I have watched Dads army many a time thank you.

 

[Robertj21a]

You should become a comedian.

Perhaps you'd like to explain that comment ?

The volume of inaccurate information posted on this forum is quite ridiculous. As I don't live in the area, I used to assume that what is posted here was (as far as is possible) generally accurate - that's clearly not the case. The on-going statements of *fact*, which then turn out to be little different to playing with buses on a fantasy forum group, just generates confusion with postings from other members with more accurate information.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I report information that has been provided to me by several sources.

I do not in any manner try to trick people into revealing commercially sensitive information.

I'm still rather surprised that FSW responded to a comment of mine, something which I wasn't expecting at all.

I wasn't seriously suggesting that you were, and FSW clearly realised that tongue was firmly in cheek.

Of course, if posting incorrect info on a message board was a guaranteed way of finding out the truth by default, it would explain most of the rubbish that gets posted

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was referring to the response of "Names please"

I have watched Dads army many a time thank you.

Arguably the most quoted lines from Dads Army - the lead in and the punchline. FSW wasn't being serious

 

[FSW Official]

Arguably the most quoted lines from Dads Army - the lead in and the punchline. FSW wasn't being serious

Indeed not. My attempt at providing a light hearted reposte to the reliance of information from anyone who works for a bus company clearly didn't resonate with Mr Harris.
And indeed yes I replied to Tom's question to me, having avoided doing so for some time following the reaction on previous occasions - only to remind myself why!

The answer was already on our Facebook page - no need to rely on members of staff.

I'll repeat it and add by confirming that we are expecting, as an initial order, 20 E400 MMCs, which we will probably allocate to the East of our network, including the 27...

...And then retreat to my lair.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed not. My attempt at providing a light hearted reposte to the reliance of information from anyone who works for a bus company clearly didn't resonate with Mr Harris.
And indeed yes I replied to Tom's question to me, having avoided doing so for some time following the reaction on previous occasions - only to remind myself why!

The answer was already on our Facebook page - no need to rely on members of staff.

I'll repeat it and add by confirming that we are expecting, as an initial order, 20 E400 MMCs, which we will probably allocate to the East of our network, including the 27...

...And then retreat to my lair.

A lair - how very Bond-villainesque!! Is that a secret chamber under a hollowed out St Michaels Mount that can transform into a rocket.....??

In all seriousness, I'd seen the "east of the territory" line, and specifically the mention of the 27. That there's 20 new deckers due had escaped me so thank you for the update. After so many lean years before 2016, good to see such investment. Not just in new vehicles but the conversions to open toppers to replace the tired Citybuses, the new liveries, and the entire image.

I won't venture an opinion or proposal on branding for a service to Bodmin though

 

[FSW Official]

A lair - how very Bond-villainesque!! Is that a secret chamber under a hollowed out St Michaels Mount that can transform into a rocket.....??

In all seriousness, I'd seen the "east of the territory" line, and specifically the mention of the 27. That there's 20 new deckers due had escaped me so thank you for the update. After so many lean years before 2016, good to see such investment. Not just in new vehicles but the conversions to open toppers to replace the tired Citybuses, the new liveries, and the entire image.

I won't venture an opinion or proposal on branding for a service to Bodmin though

A smokey garage with the potential to launch a spare bus somewhere in the East would be nice!!!

We're not necessarily planning any new branding - just getting some decent fleet into the general network in that area.

 

[83G/84D]

Indeed not. My attempt at providing a light hearted reposte to the reliance of information from anyone who works for a bus company clearly didn't resonate with Mr Harris.
And indeed yes I replied to Tom's question to me, having avoided doing so for some time following the reaction on previous occasions - only to remind myself why!

The answer was already on our Facebook page - no need to rely on members of staff.

I'll repeat it and add by confirming that we are expecting, as an initial order, 20 E400 MMCs, which we will probably allocate to the East of our network, including the 27...

...And then retreat to my lair.

Reconditioned Atlantean's from a strategic reserve site consisting of a carefully disguised bus garage made to look like a aircraft hangar complete with a spitfire on a stick outside. Located in east Somerset on the border with Wiltshire.

All to move down under the cover of darkness in a new colour scheme in convoy later in the year.


The stored Leyland national's being reinstated next year as Dart replacements.

This from a senior first WofE manager after a few "sherberts" in The Dog & Duck recently.

 

[317 forever]

As far as I can tell, First UK Bus can be divided into 16 networks. This allows for subsidiaries with disjointed networks (most notably Eastern Counties and Cymru) and those running into eachother (eg Manchester / West Yorkshire and central Scotland). I am naming extremities according to garage or town as convenient. These 16 networks are:-

Aberdeen
Edinburgh - Falkirk - Glasgow - Helensburgh / Balloch
York
Leeds - Halifax / Huddersfield - Manchester - Bolton / Warrington
Potteries

Leicester
Worcester
Cardiff - Swansea - Carmarthen - Aberystwyth
Tenby - Milford Haven
Norwich / Norfolk

Ipswich / Suffolk
Essex
Heathrow / Slough / east Berkshire
Portsmouth - Southampton
Weymouth - Somerset - Bristol - Bath / Weston / Newport

Cornwall

Of these, I reckon that Suffolk and Tenby could be the next ones to go. Isolated garages especially without modern stock could also go, such as Yeovil. Mind you, I understand that Yeovil has been brought into Buses of Somerset, suggesting that First want to keep it as an integral part of their network in the area.

 

[BBC]

Is the order late this year? or have i remembered wrong ?

 

[THarris123]

As far as I can tell, First UK Bus can be divided into 16 networks. This allows for subsidiaries with disjointed networks (most notably Eastern Counties and Cymru) and those running into eachother (eg Manchester / West Yorkshire and central Scotland). I am naming extremities according to garage or town as convenient. These 16 networks are:-

Aberdeen
Edinburgh - Falkirk - Glasgow - Helensburgh / Balloch
York
Leeds - Halifax / Huddersfield - Manchester - Bolton / Warrington
Potteries

Leicester
Worcester
Cardiff - Swansea - Carmarthen - Aberystwyth
Tenby - Milford Haven
Norwich / Norfolk

Ipswich / Suffolk
Essex
Heathrow / Slough / east Berkshire
Portsmouth - Southampton
Weymouth - Somerset - Bristol - Bath / Weston / Newport

Cornwall

Of these, I reckon that Suffolk and Tenby could be the next ones to go. Isolated garages especially without modern stock could also go, such as Yeovil. Mind you, I understand that Yeovil has been brought into Buses of Somerset, suggesting that First want to keep it as an integral part of their network in the area.

Little confused by this one. What exactly are you suggesting?

Yeovil from next week gain 5 extra vehicles worth of work. They wouldn't be getting repainted vehicles for the depot, bringing in a bit more modern fleet and giving them more work if they were going to close it down. There's also a good chance that they might be able to win some work in Dorset from tenders.

Both Suffolk and Tenby have gained more work and are very unlikely to close down.

I think they're currently running out of depots to close. They might look to sell off certain depots, in particular there was a bit of talk for the last few years that Bath would be sold, but I highly doubt it. The only other depots which they might look to sell or close are buses of somerset and that would only be if they don't make any improvement in the profitability of the company in the next few years and I think that's just as unlikely as them selling Bath. Weymouth did have a bit of a bad year last year, but this year they're investing in it and, to me, that suggests they're looking at keeping it.

 

[winston270twm]

Is the order late this year? or have i remembered wrong ?

It has been announced at the end of May in previous years, whilst it was the end of April last year.

 

[BBC]

It has been announced at the end of May in previous years, whilst it was the end of April last year.

Ah ok ! thanks ! so not long to wait now, i assume a large order for Bristol is already a given, wonder what else we will see.

 

[317 forever]

Little confused by this one. What exactly are you suggesting?

Yeovil from next week gain 5 extra vehicles worth of work. They wouldn't be getting repainted vehicles for the depot, bringing in a bit more modern fleet and giving them more work if they were going to close it down. There's also a good chance that they might be able to win some work in Dorset from tenders.

Both Suffolk and Tenby have gained more work and are very unlikely to close down.

I think they're currently running out of depots to close. They might look to sell off certain depots, in particular there was a bit of talk for the last few years that Bath would be sold, but I highly doubt it. The only other depots which they might look to sell or close are buses of somerset and that would only be if they don't make any improvement in the profitability of the company in the next few years and I think that's just as unlikely as them selling Bath. Weymouth did have a bit of a bad year last year, but this year they're investing in it and, to me, that suggests they're looking at keeping it.

I was looking at which networks were comparatively self-contained and which ones had received little new stock recently. You have highlighted increases in work in some areas I listed and why you therefore believe these will stay with First for a while yet. I knew they had expanded a bit in Norfolk at the expense of KonectBus.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Ipswich is doing better the last year or two and they've recently got the Park and Ride contract.

 

[THarris123]

I was looking at which networks were comparatively self-contained and which ones had received little new stock recently. You have highlighted increases in work in some areas I listed and why you therefore believe these will stay with First for a while yet. I knew they had expanded a bit in Norfolk at the expense of KonectBus.

Still a little confused.

Where is South Yorkshire (Doncaster and Sheffield) in your divisions? Why is all of West Yorkshire combined with Manchester? Why is Worcester Potteries and Leicester all separate? Why is Weymouth included in West of England/Somerset?

If you're going to look for depots that First are most likely to close or sell off, which isn't something really we should be speculating on (loss of jobs, etc), the best indicator usually is profitability and investment in the area. In recent years nearly all the depots that First currently run have had investment in some form and their profitability is improving. That exception of course is West of England which as the accounts showed are looking less profitable. I can't think of anything that they would particularly look to dispose of now. Not sure if others would agree?

 

[Dai Corner]

Still a little confused.

Where is South Yorkshire (Doncaster and Sheffield) in your divisions? Why is all of West Yorkshire combined with Manchester? Why is Worcester Potteries and Leicester all separate? Why is Weymouth included in West of England/Somerset?

If you're going to look for depots that First are most likely to close or sell off, which isn't something really we should be speculating on (loss of jobs, etc), the best indicator usually is profitability and investment in the area. In recent years nearly all the depots that First currently run have had investment in some form and their profitability is improving. That exception of course is West of England which as the accounts showed are looking less profitable. I can't think of anything that they would particularly look to dispose of now. Not sure if others would agree?

I'm not sure that recent investment is a necessarily a good indicator that a depot won't close or be sold. Buses can easily be moved to a different depot if they're not earning their keep.

 

[Robertj21a]

Still a little confused.

Where is South Yorkshire (Doncaster and Sheffield) in your divisions? Why is all of West Yorkshire combined with Manchester? Why is Worcester Potteries and Leicester all separate? Why is Weymouth included in West of England/Somerset?

If you're going to look for depots that First are most likely to close or sell off, which isn't something really we should be speculating on (loss of jobs, etc), the best indicator usually is profitability and investment in the area. In recent years nearly all the depots that First currently run have had investment in some form and their profitability is improving. That exception of course is West of England which as the accounts showed are looking less profitable. I can't think of anything that they would particularly look to dispose of now. Not sure if others would agree?

Going just from memory, First have had a few financial problems in at least Potteries, South Yorkshire and Manchester in recent times. There may be explanations/excuses available but it doesn't mean to say that they will all remain for the longer term - a PLC has shareholders to satisfy.

 

[robertclark125]

Some people are on about sell offs at First. What about First finding an operator, possibly in a First area, but also potentially a bolt on, which is doing very well, and First offers to buy them over? It wouldn't be a bad thing if such a scenario did happen, as perhaps First management could learn from the independent operator how to do things right!

 

[Robertj21a]

Some people are on about sell offs at First. What about First finding an operator, possibly in a First area, but also potentially a bolt on, which is doing very well, and First offers to buy them over? It wouldn't be a bad thing if such a scenario did happen, as perhaps First management could learn from the independent operator how to do things right!

It would have to be a big operator if it was to make any impact - Wellglade (Trent/Kinch etc), East Yorkshire - what about Transdev ?

I'm not sure that First doesn't know how to do things right, I think they're just still burdened down by the poor management in the Blockhead era - and that rather big hole in the finances after the USA acquisitions. If they could start again with a totally clean sheet they'd probably do ok.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It would have to be a big operator if it was to make any impact - Wellglade (Trent/Kinch etc), East Yorkshire - what about Transdev ?

I'm not sure that First doesn't know how to do things right, I think they're just still burdened down by the poor management in the Blockhead era - and that rather big hole in the finances after the USA acquisitions. If they could start again with a totally clean sheet they'd probably do ok.

That is perhaps the nub of the problem. It's not the management now but that they're having to manage the problems inherited from the previous era. That was probably 15 years of Moir and his autocratic, hubristic self, buying businesses for more than their value in order to try and engage in a p*ssing contest.

However, this thread is sadly the gift that never stops giving; a bit like a persistent attack of eczema that seems to flare up when you least expect it! BTW, this is general moan and not directed at you in particular!

All manner of conclusions can be drawn and folks would still be wrong. For instance, the idea that investment in new fleet etc means that an operation won't be downsized - see First Borders for that. Or indeed that winning a number of tenders is also a guarantee of survival - see First in Hereford who won a number of HCC tenders but then closed a year later.

Fact is that (with the exception of FSW who does know what is going on in their business and probably a few others), no one on this board can actually draw any sort of conclusion. We just don't know the detail - we can read the annual report but we don't know the input behind it. For example....First Bristol weakened markedly from one year to the next. We can speculate why (congestion increasing PVR, more agency labour, etc) but we don't actually know. There may have been some one offs in either year that could have impacted - we just don't know.

There have been so many predictions of X being sold to Y Group and most has been bovine. FWIW, the closures of Bury, Dukinfield and Doncaster make a lot of sense - running the majority of services from within the existing capacity though with the obvious challenges of interworking services and impact on reliability/dead mileage etc. As 2017/8 continues, we shall see all the major groups continue to cut costs as the amount of local government expenditure falls and there continues to be weakness in the rustbelt areas of the North, Midlands and Scotland.

As for the delay for orders being announced, who knows. Perhaps it might just be reliant on Bristol and the Metrobus award? That's been put back for political reasons i.e. announcement after the general election so perhaps it might be to avoid providing any clue as to the successful parties? Or it could be for another totally unrelated reason - we will find out in due course

 

[overthewater]

Of course the most recent company to get its fingers burnt baldy is Go-ahead, why oh why did there buy some of those companies in East Anglia, and for those prices. It was a land grab for no good reason. I think there made some bad losses and will just have to put up with that, Mind you Thamesdown is much better fit but I never know there brought Carousel.

With First, It has to clean shop, alas as been said it a worse trading period than what Stagecoach had to deal with in 2000-2002. I think we can be safe with Central Scotland, First has a five year plan, we don't know whats in the plan but were only in year 2 of said plan. Plus First have just poach Andrew Jarvis, why waste the money.

One thing I've seen is what's good one year doesn't mean it will be great next year. I bet if someone come along with a nice pot of gold for certain areas you could never tell...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

up with that, Mind you Thamesdown is much better fit but I never know there brought Carousel.



One thing I've seen is what's good one year doesn't mean it will be great next year. I bet if someone come along with a nice pot of gold for certain areas you could never tell...

Carousel perhaps made sense when you see Thames Travel and the fact that Arriva in Wycombe has perhaps been one of the weaker parts of the Shires (as was).

The second point - well, ain't that always the case. I mean, a daft Australian Bank could come along and offer Brian Souter a shed load of money for his London ops and.............

 

[overthewater]

Carousel perhaps made sense when you see Thames Travel and the fact that Arriva in Wycombe has perhaps been one of the weaker parts of the Shires (as was).

I thought Thames travel was a basket case for a few years, Didn't Carousel also benefit from First pulling back in the old Berkshire areas.

Is there a Thames travel/ Carousel day ticket? At lest at first you can get proper tickets that link up different operational areas,

The second point - well, ain't that always the case. I mean, a daft Australian Bank could come along and offer Brian Souter a shed load of money for his London ops and.............

One of the smartest things he ever did, I get the feeling Border buses did the same but with less cash.

 

[Robertj21a]

I bet if someone come along with a nice pot of gold for certain areas you could never tell...

A while back, I think First Group agreed that they would consider offers for ANY of their bus operating divisions - UK or USA. In all probability they've had little interest - either because an obvious purchaser (Stagecoach?) is already too big in much the same area (and would run into competition issues) or, more likely, that First has a number of operations that are simply only borderline/marginally profitable.
Of course, in practice, any group might accept a good offer for parts of their business - indeed, I see that someone has already mentioned BS and Stagecoach London.