First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Photos have appeared of 25 First Leicester Streetdecks, so there should be entering service shortly .

 

[dgl]

Strike seems to be extended in Weymouth into next week:

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/14569829.More_strike_action_next_week_as_bus_dispute_intensifies/

A WALKOUT by bus drivers in Weymouth and Bridport has been extended into next week.
More than 110 First Dorset drivers went on strike this week in a row over pay and have now added a further four days of industrial action.
The strike, by members of union Unite, will continue on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday next week.
Nearly 90 per cent of balloted drivers voted in favour of the strike action.
Unite regional officer Bob Lanning said: "We are faced with an intolerable situation where twice in the last ten days the management have said that they would come to the table with an improved offer – and on both occasions they have not budged.
"This dispute is being pockmarked by the management’s bad faith and broken promises.
"As a result, we are calling four more days of strike action next week as our members are very angry at the management’s duplicity."
Drivers for First Dorset earn £8.80 an hour in comparison to the £9.50 an hour earned by First drivers in Yeovil.
Mr Lanning added: "Unite‘s door for talks is always open, but the negotiations must be genuine from the management side.
"We know that the strikes are causing inconvenience for the travelling public – striking is the last thing our members want, but they are fed up with being the ‘poor relations’ when it comes to pay compared with other First Bus drivers in the West Country."
Marc Reddy, First Dorset managing director, said that the demands made by drivers were "simply not affordable".
He added: "We have to balance what they want with what the business can afford and with prices the customers are willing to pay. "To that end we’ve tabled a number of different offers over the past few months, all of which we consider to be fair and reasonable.
"It’s deeply unfortunate and frustrating that the union is taking this action, especially since our offers come on the back of pay increases in 2013 and 2014."
One of the drivers who had chosen not to take part in the walkout told the Echo that he did not agree "in principle" with a full five days of strike action.
He added: "I just think after a full five days, you are not going to get the support that they want.
"Half the battle to win a strike is public support and I do not think they are going to get it."
Mr Reddy added that First Dorset will continue to operate replacement services during the course of the strike.
He said: "We have been working hard to minimise the impact of the industrial action to date, and can report that so far this week we’ve been able to operate 87 per cent of the services that normally run, and we’d hope to be able to do the same next week, if need be.
"The dispute is clearly disruptive though, and having an impact on people who simply want to use the bus as normal, whether that’s going to school, work or leisure destinations."

 

[Robertj21a]

Photos have appeared of 25 First Leicester Streetdecks, so there should be entering service shortly .

Are you sure they are for Leicester ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are you sure they are for Leicester ?

Nigel Eggleton in route one talking about Leicester (nothing about more new vehicles) and the wider Midlands business in Route One. Interesting stuff

 

[Ian Hardy]

Nigel Eggleton in route one talking about Leicester (nothing about more new vehicles) and the wider Midlands business in Route One. Interesting stuff

Leicester got their 25 Streetdecks in April, 15 being used by FWofE on a rail replacement service between Bristol & Bath between 2nd - 10th April before going to Leicester, the other other 10 going direct to Leicester. Their are photos on this website of them on 16th April, some in service, some parked in Leicester depot:<http://www.wmbusphotos.com/FirstLeicester/fleetlist.html>

 

[Robertj21a]

Leicester got their 25 Streetdecks in April, 15 being used by FWofE on a rail replacement service between Bristol & Bath between 2nd - 10th April before going to Leicester, the other other 10 going direct to Leicester. Their are photos on this website of them on 16th April, some in service, some parked in Leicester depot:<http://www.wmbusphotos.com/FirstLeicester/fleetlist.html>

Yes, that's all happened some time ago, as you say. The query is that 'overthewater' is suggesting that 25 are to enter service *shortly*.

 

[overthewater]

Because someone postage a pic of said 25 odd buses just about a day ago on FirstBus Enthusiasts site. 2+ 2 =....
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http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2016/06/first-eyes-further-cost-cuts-as-growth-slows/

When will this end?

FirstGroup will consider closing one of its Manchester depots in a new round of cost cuts at its UK bus division triggered by expectations of declines in revenue and patronage over the next 12 months. The outlook echoes concerns over trading conditions expressed by other transport groups.

“It’s about tightening things in light of trading. For example, we’ve six depots in Manchester, and we think we may be able to close one of them in light of the current environment,” chief executive Tim O’Toole said.

First has already announced proposals to close two depots in East Lothian and largely withdraw from the Scottish Borders (PT135).

In addition, First will make changes at its rail businesses in response to a slowdown in growth across the industry. O’Toole said First would be “adjusting our spending plans accordingly in rail to ensure we can still deliver our goals as we go forward”.

Presenting its financial results for the year to March 31, 2016, First reported that revenue growth at its UK bus business during the first six months of 2015/16 had been almost cancelled out by declines in the following six months. Over the year as a whole, like-for-like revenue growth fell back to 0.3%.

Finance director Matthew Gregory said the decline had increased in the last three months of the year and that the company was “not expecting growth necessarily” over the next 12 months. “That’s why we’re trying to step up our cost savings,” he said.

He blamed a combination of fewer people shopping on the high street, exceptionally wet weather and traffic congestion for the situation.

The plans for the new round of cost cuts follow £23m of savings during 2015/16, including the closure of six depots. The cuts meant full-year operating profit at First’s UK bus division rose slightly from £51.8m to £52.0m, while total revenue fell from £896.1 to £870.9m.

O’Toole said even a low level of revenue growth would set the bus division on course to achieve its target 10% profit margin compared to a 6% margin at present. However, he acknowledged it was difficult to see where the growth was coming from in the short term. “You tell me when growth returns to the business and I’ll give you a more precise date,” he told City analysts. He added that inefficiencies in First’s business meant there was scope to improve financial performance regardless of whether growth returned.

“We do have a kind of advantage, it’s good news, bad news: it’s bad news in that there are still categories in which our costs do not match the best of our competitors, so the good news is we should still make profit margin progress even in the face of a tough market,” O’Toole said.

In the rail division, First repeated concerns expressed by Stagecoach over a slowdown in business. However, O’Toole said that in First’s case it was hard to tell whether the causes were due to disruption caused by engineering works, particularly at Great Western, or factors such as fear of terrorism and slower than expected economic growth cited by other operators.

Despite the loss of the First Capital Connect and ScotRail franchises, First reported broadly flat rail operating profits for 2015/16 of £72.9m, compared to £74.1m the previous year. Revenue fell from £2.2bn to £1.3bn.

Overall, across its American and UK businesses, First reported operating profits of £300.7m, down 1%, on revenue of £5.2bn, down 13.8%.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Because someone postage a pic of said 25 odd buses just about a day ago on FirstBus Enthusiasts site. 2+ 2 =....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
##################

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2016/06/first-eyes-further-cost-cuts-as-growth-slows/

When will this end?

This is something that the entire industry is grappling with, not just First. Stagecoach have the same challenge and it's multi faceted. It's going to get worse too as fuel prices will undoubtedly climb following the referendum and we are going to experience a slowing of economic activity.

We've seen Stagecoach close depots and two more are closing. I doubt they'll be the last you see either.

 

[Bungle965]

Because someone postage a pic of said 25 odd buses just about a day ago on FirstBus Enthusiasts site. 2+ 2 =....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
##################

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2016/06/first-eyes-further-cost-cuts-as-growth-slows/

When will this end?

Anyone got any idea which of the Manchester depots it will be that will be most likely to close?
Sam

 

[overthewater]

Anyone got any idea which of the Manchester depots it will be that will be most likely to close?
Sam

I would say the newest depot in south Manchester.

 

[smtglasgow]

Things are tough out there – and probably about to get a lot tougher if the economy stalls as predicted. If First think they can run broadly the same level of service from fewer depots it would be mad not to do it. The reductions across the business over the last decade must mean that in many areas there is excess depot capacity. Perhaps lower fuel costs makes dead running to and from distant depots less of a problem? I’d expect to see more depot closures from all the big groups (and perhaps some complete withdrawals from more marginal territory – Anglian, anyone?) As far as First is concerned, Bristol seems to be the only area experiencing meaningful growth – impressive in itself, but probably quite worrying for management.

 

[Stan Drews]

Both First and Stagecoach have suffered a considerable financial reverse, since their "bus war" in Manchester began, so I'd imagine the time has come for sense to prevail. Therefore I'd expect the former Finglands depot to close, with a scaling back of the loss making competing services.

 

[Bungle965]

Both First and Stagecoach have suffered a considerable financial reverse, since their "bus war" in Manchester began, so I'd imagine the time has come for sense to prevail. Therefore I'd expect the former Finglands depot to close, with a scaling back of the loss making competing services.

Interesting that you should say that, I would not have thought that it would be the South Manchester First depot that would be the first to close, the 42 Cross City service defiantly seems to be picking up in popularity over the last few months, I have seem many Wrightbus Streetlight`very busy over the last few months. I would assume that they would be run from Queens Road depot instead?
As for the `Bus War` I am surprised that it has lasted this long, and it keeps going with neither First nor Stagecoach stopping the offer!
Sam

 

[tbtc]

Hmm, will we look back at Finglands as another one of those "one step forwards, one step back" moves that First have experienced - what seemed an interesting growth and investment quickly turning to retrenchment and cost cutting?

(see also ftr, Greyhound...)

I know it's fully speculation at the moment, and all groups have tried things that didn't work out in the medium/long term (Stagecoach's TaxiBus?), but First don't have a great track record of seeing things through.

 

[overthewater]

If the routes can get transferred, and there can get rid of some of the bad staff? I sure were talked about them on here. That might help.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

He blamed a combination of fewer people shopping on the high street, exceptionally wet weather and traffic congestion for the situation.

Still blaming anyone and anything except themselves for their situation.

Constant cutting of network coverage, service frequencies and periods of operation ain't going to contribute to business growth. Make the service less attractive and people vote with their feet.

 

[WatcherZero]

Would of thought they would look to priortise like this.

Which depots have extra room while which are full?
Which are the most modernised requiring least expenditure in the near term on maintenenance/renewals?
Which depots can easily cover the routes of their neighbours without excessive extra mileage/road congestion delays?
Is there a market for future service growth at any of them?
Which depots are wholly owned while which are leased? (Wholly owned could be sold for a quick cash infusion wheras leased may be more expensive to operate)

 

[Volvodart]

Things are tough out there – and probably about to get a lot tougher if the economy stalls as predicted. If First think they can run broadly the same level of service from fewer depots it would be mad not to do it. The reductions across the business over the last decade must mean that in many areas there is excess depot capacity. Perhaps lower fuel costs makes dead running to and from distant depots less of a problem? I’d expect to see more depot closures from all the big groups (and perhaps some complete withdrawals from more marginal territory – Anglian, anyone?) As far as First is concerned, Bristol seems to be the only area experiencing meaningful growth – impressive in itself, but probably quite worrying for management.

I would say the Bristol growth was due to the efforts put in, obtaining a good bus manager to run the operation. If this effort had been put in elsewhere I bet they would be in a better position. From interviews with Giles, Bristol and Cornwall seem to be the only areas he mentions.

 

[WWH44L]

I would say the newest depot in south Manchester.

There has been rumours over the years that Bury would close due to the location in the middle of the retail area of the town. Also lack of investment in Bury's fleet over the years has been evident.

 

[overthewater]

There has been rumours over the years that Bury would close due to the location in the middle of the retail area of the town. Also lack of investment in Bury's fleet over the years has been evident.

Question has to be could first cover Bury from other depots if not who could?

 

[WWH44L]

Question has to be could first cover Bury from other depots if not who could?

Plenty of room at Bolton and Queens rd. Think BN was built to take 200+ but currently has an allocation of around 160 plus around 15+ withdrawn.

 

[THarris123]

Plenty of room at Bolton and Queens rd. Think BN was built to take 200+ but currently has an allocation of around 160 plus around 15+ withdrawn.

Do we know what vehicles have been withdrawn?

 

[WWH44L]

Do we know what vehicles have been withdrawn?

Plenty of Citaros plus a Trident that never entered service at Rusholme.

 

[the101]

Hardly the smartest move from O'Toole to publicly state that First may close one of its depots in Manchester. Now there will be staff at all of them wondering what the future holds, which is not likely to do much for morale and general interest in doing anything other than the bear minimum.

If First is prepared to close a depot in Manchester, then those engaged in the strike action in Dorset would do very well to consider whether continuing in the current vein is the best way to go. It's only a prediction, but if they do continue as they are doing, the future is grim for them. Strikes and the peripheral activities surrounding them consume an inordinate amount of management time, long stoppages cause serious damage to a business and I doubt that Dorset is at the top of First's league when it comes to recording profitability.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Question has to be could first cover Bury from other depots if not who could?

I'm sure Rosso would welcome the opportunity to expand. That is what they did when Rochdale garage closed a good while back. It's a quick run down the A56 from their main depot to Bury.
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If First is prepared to close a depot in Manchester, then those engaged in the strike action in Dorset would do very well to consider whether continuing in the current vein is the best way to go. It's only a prediction, but if they do continue as they are doing, the future is grim for them. Strikes and the peripheral activities surrounding them consume an inordinate amount of management time, long stoppages cause serious damage to a business and I doubt that Dorset is at the top of First's league when it comes to recording profitability.

The future is only grim whilst remaining as employees of First. I'm sure there are other, large, operators in the vicinity, who could mop up the mess and transform it into something worthwhile.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm sure Rosso would welcome the opportunity to expand. That is what they did when Rochdale garage closed a good while back. It's a quick run down the A56 from their main depot to Bury.
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The future is only grim whilst remaining as employees of First. I'm sure there are other, large, operators in the vicinity, who could mop up the mess and transform it into something worthwhile.

It certainly might enable Rosso to survive a bit longer than it might do otherwise.

How many other large operators are there in that part of Dorset ?

 

[dgl]

It certainly might enable Rosso to survive a bit longer than it might do otherwise.





How many other large operators are there in that part of Dorset ?

In Weymouth none really although Damory/GoAhead have a few token services. Elsewhere (north, east and west) it is basically all GoAhead (Morebus/Damory).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It certainly might enable Rosso to survive a bit longer than it might do otherwise.

How many other large operators are there in that part of Dorset ?

I was thinking Go-Ahead. They don't need to be present in Weymouth, just close enough to know the local market and be able to manage the operation from their nearest location.

Of course there would be nothing stopping a newcomer to the area setting up a new operation (or buying the remnants of First) with new management etc. As was suggested several pages ago as one possible solution to the woes of First in the Potteries. A new broom approach.

 

[overthewater]

I think that the end of the First operations in Weymouth...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-36657734

Bus drivers in Dorset will stage a third week of strike action, the Unite union has announced.
More than 110 drivers based in Weymouth and Bridport are already in the middle of a four-day strike over pay.
Now Unite has said four more days of action will start on 4 July, accusing First Dorset of refusing to give ground after seven months of talks.
First Group said the move would "undermine the local economy" during the summer season.
First Group busImage copyrightFIRST GROUP
Image caption
The union said First Group had recently announced a UK-wide profit for its bus division of £52m
Managing director Marc Reddy said: "The union's reckless action to hold further strikes is designed to cause as much damage to our business as possible, and it is done so without any consideration for our customers, or the future of the company as a whole."
Unite said the company had recently announced a UK-wide profit for its bus division of £52m.
'Stuck record'
Regional officer Bob Lanning said: "We have reached the 'stuck record' stage. I get emails from the management saying we should talk, but there is never any hint of an improved offer to eradicate the pay disparities across the First Bus 'family'."
He said the Weymouth and Bridport drivers earned about £18,300 a year, less than other First Bus drivers in the West Country and less than staff at rival firms in Bournemouth and Poole.
Mr Lanning said: "Unite does not want the Weymouth and Bridport economies to suffer as the holiday season gets into full swing. Local shops should put pressure on the bus company to get around the table for constructive talks."
Mr Reddy said the union had refused to go to the arbitration service ACAS.
Services are running on an emergency timetable during the action but First Group said it had managed to operate 87% of its normal service during the strike days.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think that the end of the First operations in Weymouth...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-36657734

Despite the fact that they're bringing drivers in from elsewhere? Looks like there's a bigger picture