First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

I thought the issue was with L113s but happy to stand corrected.

Perhaps it's both - or neither !!. Can't readily recall any DDA of either model. First Group seems to have been the most interested/desperate/needy with regard to modifying elderly buses to get them DDA certified and they've certainly done a good many Volvo B7TL/ALX400 and Volvo B10BLE's.

Oh well, we've only got just over 6 months to be certain.

 

[overthewater]

Where did it all go wrong, it claimed it would be DDA by the end of 2012?

 

[THarris123]

Can anybody tell me on what's happening to the non-DDA crap in Plymouth. Do we know what's being cascaded into there?

When I last checked the worst depots for non-DDA singles (I've also included anything up to and including Y reg - I know a lot of W/X/Y reg stuff is DDA):-

Kernow - 44 singles up to and including Y reg
Plymouth - 40 singles
Adderley Green - 40 singles
Bury - 35 singles (most of which are the Citaros and I think they're DDA compliant)
Aberdeen - 33 singles (practically all W/X reg B10s, so probably DDA compliant)
Olive Grove - 29 singles
Bradford - 27 singles
Hengrove (Bristol) - 23 singles

Then there's Hilsea, Hoeford, Lawrence Hill, Larbert and Oldham with just below 20 singles.

The majority of these depots are getting new vehicles and in some cases it's obvious where cascades are coming from, but in the cases of Plymouth and Cornwall, I have no idea. Do we know where the cascades are coming from?

Oh and before anyone asks the majority of these numbers are up to date and factual, maybe not the Manchester ones and Larbert, but the rest should be.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Perhaps it's both - or neither !!. Can't readily recall any DDA of either model. First Group seems to have been the most interested/desperate/needy with regard to modifying elderly buses to get them DDA certified and they've certainly done a good many Volvo B7TL/ALX400 and Volvo B10BLE's.

Oh well, we've only got just over 6 months to be certain.

They've been cheerfully repainting B10BLEs over the last few months in Bristol (incl R and S regs) without any apparent mods so assume that they were already ok. They're great workhorses but looks like some will be getting on for nearly 20 years old by withdrawal.

To answer OTW's question, we all know how. It was hubris in expanding with a highly leveraged purchase, a culture that didn't allow warnings to be sounded or acted upon, the loss of good people and an initial complacency (treating UK Bus as a cash cow) that then moved into compounding it with a lack of available funds to invest when it all hit the buffers.

It took a good few years to cock it up (the lean years really starting after 2005) though the seeds were planted long ago. Not surprisingly, it takes a while to dig it back out again!!

 

[overthewater]

To answer OTW's question, we all know how. It was hubris in expanding with a highly leveraged purchase, a culture that didn't allow warnings to be sounded or acted upon, the loss of good people and an initial complacency (treating UK Bus as a cash cow) that then moved into compounding it with a lack of available funds to invest when it all hit the buffers.

It took a good few years to cock it up (the lean years really starting after 2005) though the seeds were planted long ago. Not surprisingly, it takes a while to dig it back out again!!

What's so surprising about this whole thing, is First were the ones making the claims it operations would be DDA by end of 2012 etc, Or was it low floor ( which still hasn't happen). What I mean is why would you make such claims if you know it would be impossible to happen?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What's so surprising about this whole thing, is First were the ones making the claims it operations would be DDA by end of 2012 etc, Or was it low floor ( which still hasn't happen). What I mean is why would you make such claims if you know it would be impossible to happen?

As Harold MacMillan once allegedly said - "Events, my dear boy, events"

Depends when it was said and by whom. Also, the recession was deeper and longer than anticipated and perhaps affected First more than they'd bargained for. Perhaps they didn't get the same sort of finance facilities as they'd hoped and that was an issue?

Certainly capital became sparse in later years of the Lockhead regime as part of the general malaise as the share issue indicated.

 

[Robertj21a]

As Harold MacMillan once allegedly said - "Events, my dear boy, events"

Depends when it was said and by whom. Also, the recession was deeper and longer than anticipated and perhaps affected First more than they'd bargained for. Perhaps they didn't get the same sort of finance facilities as they'd hoped and that was an issue?

Certainly capital became sparse in later years of the Lockhead regime as part of the general malaise as the share issue indicated.

They're not exactly full of capital nowadays, quite some years after Lockhead's departure. I know it all takes time to rebuild something that was so poorly managed but it looks, to me, that their recovery will still take many more years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They're not exactly full of capital nowadays, quite some years after Lockhead's departure. I know it all takes time to rebuild something that was so poorly managed but it looks, to me, that their recovery will still take many more years.

Before the rights issue, they were screwed, so whilst it ain't pretty now, it's better than it was and would've been!!

Whilst they'll doubtless meet DDA this year, it will be on the back of some very elderly kit still being in service. It will continue to take time to unwind the Lockhead years.

Given it took years of poor strategy and management culture to cock it up, always wondered why people thought repairing the damage would be near to overnight?

 

[WatcherZero]

While bus revenues are doing well at the moment (and covering the decline in rail) I don't think the recovery plan has been as smooth as they would have liked, they never achieved either of their target amounts to be raised from disposals.

 

[overthewater]

I do wonder what the group would be like if its managed to retain or win a few rail franchise? Would it have had more money to buy more buses?

 

[KendalKing]

Before the rights issue, they were screwed, so whilst it ain't pretty now, it's better than it was and would've been!!

I would like to second that.........

 

[pompeyfan]

I do wonder what the group would be like if its managed to retain or win a few rail franchise? Would it have had more money to buy more buses?

I was told by a senior employee of First group that first uses the large turnover of rail (which has a tiny profit) to create and facilitate the borrowing of credit to fund new buses, common sense would say the more rail franchises, the more first can borrow against new buses. I was also told the re-branding of the franchises was a cost saving exercise, as it costs £30,000 to repaint each carriage... (When it was explained to me it made sense, but I can't remember how!)

 

[nesw]

Reading Buses will operate 90 Reading - Wokingham -Bracknell from 26/7. Currently operated commercially by First from their Bracknell garage.

Given the contract routes they have lost to Courtney from 13/7, I'd imagine that there won't be much left at Bracknell? Closure would certainly leave Slough garage out on a limb.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its fascinating that First are getting poor rail but good bus margins at the same time Stagecoach is getting good rail but poor bus (blaming low fuel prices losing customers to cars).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Its fascinating that First are getting poor rail but good bus margins at the same time Stagecoach is getting good rail but poor bus (blaming low fuel prices losing customers to cars).

Look at it in a number of ways....

Stagecoach is experiencing some headwinds against last year as it loses central and local government expenditure.

First will be experiencing the same but the mismanagement had depressed demand so much that the measures that they implemented were going to help it bounce back. In that respect, Stagecoach were already doing well

 

[Hophead]

BBC are reporting the demise of Swansea's ftr buses in September. I didn't get the impression from the report that they have much of a future (the irony!). Do First still have some in Leeds? And is that it?

 

[overthewater]

BBC are reporting the demise of Swansea's ftr buses in September. I didn't get the impression from the report that they have much of a future (the irony!). Do First still have some in Leeds? And is that it?

Said buses were a stupid idea in the first place from a stupid man, who happens to also have no future in First either. The fact the buses have very low MPG is a joke aswell, and should have been ringing alarm back seven years ago, I bet it was all for show.

I wonder if it will be BorisMaster which will take there place?

 

[Strathclyder]

BBC are reporting the demise of Swansea's ftr buses in September. I didn't get the impression from the report that they have much of a future (the irony!). Do First still have some in Leeds? And is that it?

The only other FTR outside of Swansea and/or Leeds in regular service is the sole FTR vehicle (T6 FCC, formerly YJ07 LVX) in use on the Train2Plane link at London Luton Airport, now operated by London General from Northumberland Park.

 

[DD12]

Perhaps First could save-face by selling them to NEW-AGE travellers ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Said buses were a stupid idea in the first place from a stupid man, who happens to also have no future in First either. The fact the buses have very low MPG is a joke aswell, and should have been ringing alarm back seven years ago, I bet it was all for show.

I wonder if it will be BorisMaster which will take there place?

Why on earth would they want to buy a 'Borismaster' ?

 

[overthewater]

Why on earth would they want to buy a 'Borismaster' ?

Well its the new shiny thing First has been trying out everywhere else.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well its the new shiny thing First has been trying out everywhere else.

Wasn't it just Leeds ?

 

[CatfordCat]

First Berkshire have announced that their commercial Reading - Bracknell route is going to pass to Reading Buses.

Story (Reading local paper) here

That's about 8 - 10 buses worth of work currently from the Bracknell depot.

Earlier this week, the Bracknell Forest supported network (about 6 or 7 buses worth) was awarded to Courtney of Bracknell - much of this is operated by First at present.

wonder quite what's going on. Assuming that's the end of the story, this will leave the commercial bits of the Bracknell town network (mainly the 1960s - 70s bits south of the 'new town' that were designed with good bus priority in the first place and are not jammed with parked cars on bus routes), the Camberley and Windsor corridors, and the Green Line Bracknell - Slough - London routes at Bracknell.

There is currently some competition from Courtney on some of the town routes and a (not exactly parallel) Camberley service.

 

[Robertj21a]

First Berkshire have announced that their commercial Reading - Bracknell route is going to pass to Reading Buses.

Story (Reading local paper) here

That's about 8 - 10 buses worth of work currently from the Bracknell depot.

Earlier this week, the Bracknell Forest supported network (about 6 or 7 buses worth) was awarded to Courtney of Bracknell - much of this is operated by First at present.

wonder quite what's going on. Assuming that's the end of the story, this will leave the commercial bits of the Bracknell town network (mainly the 1960s - 70s bits south of the 'new town' that were designed with good bus priority in the first place and are not jammed with parked cars on bus routes), the Camberley and Windsor corridors, and the Green Line Bracknell - Slough - London routes at Bracknell.

There is currently some competition from Courtney on some of the town routes and a (not exactly parallel) Camberley service.

Perhaps Slough depot is big enough to say 'farewell' to what's left of Bracknell ?

 

[DD12]

A regular contributor on the midlandred.net forum, who is also a First employee, has just posted that HEREFORD depot is to close, early September.

No other info. is available yet.: (

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A regular contributor on the midlandred.net forum, who is also a First employee, has just posted that HEREFORD depot is to close, early September.

No other info. is available yet.: (

Nothing on that site - has it been removed?

Odd, seeing as they won an amount of tendered work there not so long ago which added about 4 to the PVR.

 

[IanCleverly]

Only information I can *quickly* find is through the Passenger Transport twitter feed:-

First Bus has announced proposals to close three of its smaller depots (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Hereford and Bracknell) later this year

https://twitter.com/passtrans/status/615513429118468096

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Only information I can *quickly* find is through the Passenger Transport twitter feed:-



https://twitter.com/passtrans/status/615513429118468096

Newcastle isn't a surprise. It was proposed some time ago and I think they did a sale and lease back on the depot.

As for Hereford, wonder if it's outright closure and leaving Yeomans to serve the city?

 

[baza585]

Newcastle isn't a surprise. It was proposed some time ago and I think they did a sale and lease back on the depot.

As for Hereford, wonder if it's outright closure and leaving Yeomans to serve the city?

Hereford appears to be a complete withdrawal from Hereford services.

Bracknell was a bit more of a surprise, although there has been fierce competition from Courtney. It probably depends what services they think they can profitably run from Slough; it appears the Legoland and Greenline services at least will survive, run from Slough.

I would guess the Tridents, Citaros and Darts will be redeployed to FDC,FHD and Slough respectively, possibly?

 

[overthewater]

Just to ask how big is the Newcastle-under-Lyme depot and how big is the other depot in the area? And is there room for addition buses?