First Group: General Discussion

[Polo Mint]

It looks like the rumour of Manchester getting new deckers in 2015 is true.

First Manchester have won the contract to operate the Leigh guided busway, which will link Leigh, Atherton and Salford to Manchester. The buses will then extend onto the Hospitals and the Universities when the busway opens later this year.

According to the press release. 'The service will be run using brand new, high quality double deck, low carbon emission vehicles that will be replaced every five years. Passengers will benefit from on-board "next stop" audio and visual announcements and CCTV, alongside free wi-fi, climate control and high quality seating.'


Source: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/greater_manchester/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=24951&conf=0

 

[overthewater]

But of course First could not have included doube deckers for the Leigh busway in its oringal plans could it? It would have to be a bolt on?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But of course First could not have included doube deckers for the Leigh busway in its oringal plans could it? It would have to be a bolt on?

The Leigh Busway may be additional but in any case, there were going to be more than 5 deckers ordered by First (and not just for Bristol).

 

[overthewater]

The changes for FSE and maybe First Glasgow should be appearing this coming week. The changes are connected with the lose of the Scotrail controls. Cumbernauld, west and east Lothain, are the areas where the controls are still in place.

 

[vicbury]

It looks like the rumour of Manchester getting new deckers in 2015 is true.

First Manchester have won the contract to operate the Leigh guided busway, which will link Leigh, Atherton and Salford to Manchester. The buses will then extend onto the Hospitals and the Universities when the busway opens later this year.

According to the press release. 'The service will be run using brand new, high quality double deck, low carbon emission vehicles that will be replaced every five years. Passengers will benefit from on-board "next stop" audio and visual announcements and CCTV, alongside free wi-fi, climate control and high quality seating.'


Source: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/greater_manchester/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=24951&conf=0

I wasn't aware they still made ALX400s:

Image taken from your link

 

[overthewater]

Any news yet as to when announcement will happen about its new fleet?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Any news yet as to when announcement will happen about its new fleet?

Dribs and drabs keep coming out and based on last year and 2013, it's probably imminent.

As well as Bristol's 50 new vehicles (39 deckers and 11 singles) which is confirmed, rumours of more new kit for Hampshire and allegedly 23 new Streetdecks for Norwich....

 

[overthewater]

The changes for FSE and maybe First Glasgow should be appearing this coming week. The changes are connected with the lose of the Scotrail controls. Cumbernauld, west and east Lothain, are the areas where the controls are still in place.

FSE have started to appear and yes, its more cuts.
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Else where Aberdeen has some fare changes coming in shorlty. Singles fares are going up but the day ticket is being cut in price:

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/aberdeen/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=25321&conf=0
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Here are some details of the further cuts heading our way. Its been said the 800 is getting re-registered.

PM0000923/59 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Edinburgh, Waterloo Place and Bathgate, Morrisons or South Bridge Street/ Livingston, Deans given service number 27/28/28C/X27/X28 effective from 13-Apr-2015. To amend Route, Stopping Places and Timetable.

PM0000923/199 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Edinburgh (Regent Road) and Whitburn (West Main Street @ Polkemmet Road) given service number 20/X20 effective from 13-Apr-2015. To amend Timetable.

PM0000923/217 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Blackridge Turning Circle and Livingston Opp Sainsbury's given service number 800 effective from 12-Apr-2015.

PM0000923/233 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Livingston Terminal and Fauldhouse, Rail Station given service number 21/21A/21C/X21 effective from 13-Apr-2015. To amend Timetable.

PM0000923/236 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Edinburgh Regent Road and Livingston Bus Terminal given service number 22/22A/X22 effective from 13-Apr-2015. To amend Timetable.

PM0000923/237 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Edinburgh Regent Road and Livingston Terminal given service number 21/21A/21B/21C/X21 effective from 13-Apr-2015. To amend Timetable.

PM0000923/247 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between BATHGATE (SOUTH BRIDGE STREET) and GLASGOW (BUCHANAN BUS STATION) given service number X14 effective from 12-Apr-2015.

PM0000923/252 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Appleton Parkway Roundabout and Livingston Bus Terminal given service number 900 effective from 13-Apr-2015. To amend Route, Stopping Places and Timetable.

PM0000923/264 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Livingston Deans South and Edinburgh Regent Road given service number 27A effective from 10-Apr-2015.

PM0000923/265 - FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Livingston Bus Terminal and Bathgate South Bridge Street given service number X14 effective from 12-Apr-2015.

Falkirk also has some minor changes it would seem.
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#########
At what point are some people going to start to click, FSE has yet to hit rock bottom? While most of UK bus Supertanker has turned around, tug boat FSE is still spinning around. It really does seem like UK bus has washed its hands of the company. I’m very surprised it was never sold off, with the amount of work needed. Wigan got sold off because it need some newer buses….

More buses are being loses, scraped or even moved on to other places. First has lost a good chuck of the Stirling routes to other companies, It’s not just around Edinburgh where its lost out.

No money is forthcoming, but maybe some new buses which are badly needed. What really should happen is, UK bus donates a one off payment for improvements, so the company can expand properly.

PM0000003/2 - MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Stirling, Bus Station and Glasgow, Buchanan Bus Station given service number X39 effective from 20-Apr-2015. To amend Timetable.

PM0000003/132 - MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Bannockburn, Newmarket or Stirling, Bus Station and Dunblane, Wallace Road or High School or Ashfield given service number 58/358 effective from 20-Apr-2015. To amend Route, Stopping Places and Timetable.

PM0000003/250 - MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between St. Ninians, Cultenhove Road and Raploch, Fire Station given service number 57/57C effective from 20-Apr-2015. To amend Route, Stopping Places and Timetable.

PM0000003/379 - MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Variation Accepted: Operating between Cowie (Post Office) and Cowie (Post Office) given service number 54/54A effective from 20-Apr-2015. To amend Route, Stopping Places and Timetable.

PM0000003/438 - MIDLAND BLUEBIRD LTD, CARMUIRS HOUSE, 300 STIRLING ROAD, LARBERT, FK5 3NJ
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Stirling Bus Station and Raploch Forth Valley College given service number 101 effective from 20-Apr-2015.

 

[Deerfold]

I’m very surprised it was never sold off, with the amount of work needed.

Perhaps no-one wanted to buy it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wigan needed updating but had a reasonable operating areas that hadn't had too many incursions. FSE has many more issues from large and small operators. Also, Wigan was hardly likely to attract many competition concerns.

 

[smtglasgow]

Perhaps no-one wanted to buy it.

I suspect that if First walked away from Falkirk, Stirling or Livingston, Stagecoach might be interested in picking up at least some of the pieces, but it is hard to see any offer being made. Stagecoach must be at the limit of what the regulators will allow in terms of market share in Scotland. Lothian are obviously nailed on to take over in East Lothian if First withdraw, but they have shown no interest in expanding westwards. Despite regular tinkering, FSE have never got their network right. The inter-urban routes are slow and the local routes over-priced. Unlike most operators, they don’t seem to have the killer routes that would justify investment and start a process of internal cascade. Maybe the best they can hope for is some mid-life cascades from Glasgow.

The fares are the big hurdle. The zonal structure seems designed to force people to buy eye-wateringly expensive tickets. Alloa – Stirling, a 20 minute journey, is £28 pw, while Peebles to Edinburgh – one of the few flows where there is no competition from the train - is an astonishing £52 pw. Compare that with the West of England or Norfolk/Suffolk network weekly (£25/£28) and you start to see the problem. Outwith Edinburgh, parking and congestion isn’t really an issue, so the car is an attractive option. Can’t see any prospect of lower ticket prices as the short-term loss of revenue would likely cripple the company. I’m not sure at what point First would admit defeat, but there is only so far they can go with cuts and fare increases.

 

[Volvodart]

I thought Fse had some more new buses coming soon.

 

[overthewater]

I thought Fse had some more new buses coming soon.

I did say "No money is forthcoming but maybe some new buses which are badly needed" but we don't know what the new buses are or where there going etc.

All we know for sure is five green buses for the stirling uni route, which are paid for by Holyrood.

 

[Volvodart]

We shall see, you have been wrong before.

 

[overthewater]

We shall see, you have been wrong before.

In the current context about what? I did say new buses are maybe due, you said new buses are due. But what I did say is we don’t know what there are or where there going. The only thing we know for 100% is five green buses for the Stirling uni route, which are paid for by Holyrood. Unless you know what FSE are getting?

At this moment of time everyone is playing tug of war. Were still none the wiser about E500 moving to Aberdeen or if Glasgow will get new double deckers. It was reported last year Glasgow was getting 40 odd Streetlites and that’s it. Now it’s being reported Glasgow will no longer getting them.
How are you supposed to keep track with all this information. Last year was bad enough, when FSE ended up with more than what was claimed etc….

You would think First would go to Ensign buy 100 odd ex London decker’s and do them up from the leasing company. The 53 plates Thornton did are smashing.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

In the current context about what? I did say new buses are maybe due, you said new buses are due. But what I did say is we don’t know what there are or where there going. The only thing we know for 100% is five green buses for the Stirling uni route, which are paid for by Holyrood. Unless you know what FSE are getting?

At this moment of time everyone is playing tug of war. Were still none the wiser about E500 moving to Aberdeen or if Glasgow will get new double deckers. It was reported last year Glasgow was getting 40 odd Streetlites and that’s it. Now it’s being reported Glasgow will no longer getting them.
How are you supposed to keep track with all this information. Last year was bad enough, when FSE ended up with more than what was claimed etc….

You would think First would go to Ensign buy 100 odd ex London decker’s and do them up from the leasing company. The 53 plates Thornton did are smashing.

If the E500's were to go up to Aberdeen, how on earth would the new Caledonia depot manage the decrease in capacity levels? The 4/4A and 75 do require the E500's for the capacity levels alone.

Remember they do have 25 of them and that's a lot of seats that would go missing if they were to go up north...

 

[overthewater]

If the E500's were to go up to Aberdeen, how on earth would the new Caledonia depot manage the decrease in capacity levels? The 4/4A and 75 do require the E500's for the capacity levels alone.

Remember they do have 25 of them and that's a lot of seats that would go missing if they were to go up north...

Im not the one saying that

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Im not the one saying that

I'm just stating a point that there is no way Caledonia would want to give up potentially 2000+ seats for nothing to replace them...

 

[overthewater]

I'm just stating a point that there is no way Caledonia would want to give up potentially 2000+ seats for nothing to replace them...

I do agree with you here. Its just a shame E500 is no longer made for the UK market, I bet if First asked nicely Alexander dennis might make 25 new E500 for the Aberdeen.

 

[overthewater]

With First Scotland East, another Sseven buses are being cut out of the network overall. ( it could be more if the 800 only serves Bathgate once an hour ie Nine, or even ten of the 20-22 have reduced layovers.)

So overall in first four months of 2015: over 25 buses have been pulled. What will be more interesting is if it managed to keep the Falkirk and Fife school work or managed to increase.

Will we see further cuts coming?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
First are axing most of its journeys on its Dunblane route, saving another bus and only providing 2 morning and 2 afternoon peak journeys.

Where will it end.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just incase anyone misted this else where on the forum.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=113273

 

[GaryMcEwan]

It's that time of year for First Glasgow...

From 29 March a number of fares across our Greater Glasgow and Lanarkshire network will be revised.

A significant number of fares are being frozen at their current levels. We've worked hard to keep any fares increases to an absolute minimum.

Single Fares
Adult Single £1.20: No change
Adult single £1.80: No change
Adult Single £2.10 > £2.20
Adult single £1.95 > £2.00
Adult single £3.75 > £3.90
Adult single £4.75 > £4.95

Adult single City Night Service £2.00: No change
Adult single Lanarkshire Night Service £3.00: No change

Child single £0.60: No change

JobSeekers Local £1.00: No change
JobSeekers Network £2.00: No change

Young Person
Young Person £0.80: No change
Young Person £1.20: No change
Young Person £1.30: No change
Young Person £2.50 > £2.60
Young Person £3.15 > £3.30

FirstDay
FirstDay City £4.10 > £4.30
FirstDay Local £4.10 > £4.30
FirstDay Network £5.50 > £5.75

FirstDay Paisley Local £2.50: No change

FirstDay Accompanied Child £1.50: No change
FirstDay Child £2.00: No change

Family Ticket (Off Peak) £8.00 > £9.00

2 Journey Return
City Return 1 Zone £3.00 > £3.20
City Return 2 Zones £3.45 > £3.60
Lanarkshire Local Return (£1.80 Sgl) £3.00 > £3.20
Lanarkshire Local Return (£2 Sgl) £3.45 > £3.60
Dumbarton Local Return £2.30 > £2.50
Alexandria Local Return £2.30 > £2.50
Dumbarton Network Return £3.00 > £3.50
Cumbernauld/Kirkintilloch Local Return £3.45 > £3.60
Network Return £4.80 > £5.00

FirstWeek
FirstWeek City £16.50 > £17.00
FirstWeek Local £15.00 > £15.50
Firstweek Network £19.50 > £21.00
FirstWeek Dumbarton £13.00 > £15.50
FirstWeek Cumbernauld Express £17.50 > £19.50
FirstWeek Newdeal £12.00: No change

Child FirstWeek City New £8.50
Child FirstWeek Local New £8.50
Child FirstWeek Network New £9.75

Available from Paypoint/Mticket
First 4 Week City £45.00 > £46.00
First 4 Week Local £45.00: No change
First 4 Week Network £57.00 > £59.00
First 10 Week City £96.00: No change
First 10 Week Local £96.00: No change
First 10 Week Network £132.00: No change

Student/U19 FirstWeek
FirstWeek Student /Under 19 City £12.00 > £13.00
FirstWeek Student /Under 19 Local £12.00 > £13.00
FirstWeek Student /Under 19 Network £15.50 > £16.50
FirstWeek Student /Under 19 X Card £13.00 > £14.00

Available from Paypoint/Mticket
SimpliStudent 4 Week/U19 City £45.00 > £43.00
SimpliStudent 4 Week/U19 Local £45.00 > £43.00
SimpliStudent 4 Week/U19 Network £57.00 > £53.00
10 Weeky Student/U19 City £96.00: Replaced by 12 week
10 Weeky Student/U19 Local £96.00: Replaced by 12 week
10 Weekly Student/U19 Network £132.00: Replaced by 12 week
SimpliStudent 12 Week City £115.00: No Change
SimpliStudent 12 Week Local £115.00: No change
SimpliStudent 12 Week Network £150.00: No change
SimpliStudent Term City £300.00: No change
SimpliStudent Term City Local £300.00: No change
SimpliStudent Term Network £400.00: No change

Flexi10 available from Paypoint/Mticket
Flexi10 City £18.00: No change
Flexi10 Local £18.00: No change
Flexi10 Network £23.00: No change

 

[overthewater]

AND First Scotland East: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/scotland_east/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=26251&conf=0

Service cuts and fare rises..... Shame old First some for some people....

From Sunday 29th March, a small number of First Scotland East fares will be revised.

The revision reflects increases in our running costs, and while we have kept the revision to a minimum, customers will notice some changes.

The increases, which average 1.62%, are as follows:

Single/Returns

Stirling/Falkirk
� £1.80 single fare rises to £1.90, return £3.30 increases to £3.50, child single £0.90 increases to £1.00, child return £1.70 increases to £1.80
� £2.20 single fare rises to £2.30, return £4.00 increases to £4.20, child single £1.10 increases to £1.20, child return £2.00 increases to £2.20

West Lothian
� £2.20 single fare rises to £2.30, return £4.00 increases to £4.20

Borders
� £1.50 single fare rises to £1.60, return £2.70 increases to £2.90
� £2.70 single fare rises to £2.80, return £4.90 increases to £5.10

Special Tickets
� Linlithgow " Falkirk Day return £3.50 increases to £4.00
� Stirling " Plean Day return £3.50 increases to £4.00
� Hawick Day Ticket £2.50 increases to £3.00
� Grangemouth Day Ticket £2.00 increases to £2.50
� Stirling University 4 Week ticket £25.00 increases to £27.00
� Edinburgh to Kirkliston Day return £3.50 is cancelled. However there is a £3.50 zone LMn day ticket available
� Falkirk College £1.00 Day return is cancelled due to lack of usage

Any fares not mentioned above will not increase.

If you have any questions about the changes please contact us through our contacts page.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
######

When was the last time, First bus: UK fleet order was announced this late in the year? Also what could be causing the delays :?

Are we expecting any surprising news next Wednesday?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Last year was 30th Jan, but 2011 was 30th Mar. Thought it would be announced by now and would expect it before 6th Apr.

Next Wed is pre-close update but I guess the news will be more about the effects of rail losses on revenue more than anything else.

 

[overthewater]

Tomorrow is the big day. To be fair It just seems a little to quiet from First group of late, IE no news of fleets etc. Nothing has been said in the papers either.

I'm not expecting closures as in the past, mind you Musselburgh depot still has to be moved or be closed down, since its land has been marked down for new housing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's seems first are spending 70million on 425 new buses. I can't any other details.

 

[Volvodart]

That was the year just ended.

 

[overthewater]

That was the year just ended.

It's still up on one of the moblie version pages.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's still up on one of the moblie version pages.

That's not an excuse for not checking

Trading update is as follows

Overall trading for the Group in the fourth quarter was in line with
management's expectations, and our transformation plans continue to progress:

* First Student: second year of contract pricing strategy achieving improved terms to date; fourth quarter trading modestly affected by adverse weather in the North Eastern US

* First Transit: solid fourth quarter completes another year of growth and margin performance

* Greyhound: actively managing cost base to mitigate contraction in passenger demand from cheaper fuel; yield management implementation on track

* UK Bus: delivering volume growth and achieving positive yield, with progress on cost efficiencies

* UK Rail: passenger demand continues to drive revenue and earnings outperformance; First Great Western and First TransPennine Express franchise agreements signed



For UK bus specifically

UK Bus

Our UK Bus transformation programme continues to deliver like-for-like passenger volume growth, expected to increase by 1.1% for the year, despite the mixed economic conditions across the division. Our plans are particularly focused on driving commercial passenger volume growth, which is expected to increase by 2.6% on a like-for-like basis for the year. Now that many parts of our business have reached the anniversary of our fare rebasing actions, revenue growth is also expected to benefit from positive yield from periodic price increases in line with the market. As a result, overall like-for-like revenue growth is expected to be 2.3% for the year. This growth, coupled with our cost efficiency programmes, is expected to result in margin progress of approximately 1% for the year, as we continue to work toward our medium term target of double digit margins.

We believe that our strategy, which is based on delivering a competitive customer proposition coupled with improved operating discipline and strong partnerships with local authorities, is the most responsive, efficient and cost-effective way to deliver the outcomes that bus passengers and taxpayers want. Our confidence is reinforced by the validation of our efforts to improve our customer proposition as measured in the recent Passenger Focus survey of bus users across the UK - particularly on value for money, where our score has improved by 17% over two years and is now above the national average.

 

[Robertj21a]

That's not an excuse for not checking

Trading update is as follows

Overall trading for the Group in the fourth quarter was in line with
management's expectations, and our transformation plans continue to progress:

* First Student: second year of contract pricing strategy achieving improved terms to date; fourth quarter trading modestly affected by adverse weather in the North Eastern US

* First Transit: solid fourth quarter completes another year of growth and margin performance

* Greyhound: actively managing cost base to mitigate contraction in passenger demand from cheaper fuel; yield management implementation on track

* UK Bus: delivering volume growth and achieving positive yield, with progress on cost efficiencies

* UK Rail: passenger demand continues to drive revenue and earnings outperformance; First Great Western and First TransPennine Express franchise agreements signed



For UK bus specifically

UK Bus

Our UK Bus transformation programme continues to deliver like-for-like passenger volume growth, expected to increase by 1.1% for the year, despite the mixed economic conditions across the division. Our plans are particularly focused on driving commercial passenger volume growth, which is expected to increase by 2.6% on a like-for-like basis for the year. Now that many parts of our business have reached the anniversary of our fare rebasing actions, revenue growth is also expected to benefit from positive yield from periodic price increases in line with the market. As a result, overall like-for-like revenue growth is expected to be 2.3% for the year. This growth, coupled with our cost efficiency programmes, is expected to result in margin progress of approximately 1% for the year, as we continue to work toward our medium term target of double digit margins.

We believe that our strategy, which is based on delivering a competitive customer proposition coupled with improved operating discipline and strong partnerships with local authorities, is the most responsive, efficient and cost-effective way to deliver the outcomes that bus passengers and taxpayers want. Our confidence is reinforced by the validation of our efforts to improve our customer proposition as measured in the recent Passenger Focus survey of bus users across the UK - particularly on value for money, where our score has improved by 17% over two years and is now above the national average.

It also goes on as follows:-

"Financial position

We expect a total cash outflow for the current financial year of up to £100m,
which is principally due to the cash outflow of approximately £70m associated
with the end of the First Capital Connect franchise in September 2014. As
previously indicated, we expect net cash flow for our next financial year to be
broadly flat excluding an outflow of approximately £60m associated with the end
of the ScotRail franchise. As our plans continue to drive improvements in our
returns, we expect the sustainable cash generation of the Group to increase
over the medium term, which in turn will allow us to continue to strengthen the
Group's financial position. We are part way through a multi-year programme of
investing at an increased rate in our businesses to support the turnaround in
financial performance, and over time we expect our financing costs to continue
to reduce, as cash generation increases and our relatively high coupon bonds
mature."


Won't that be interpreted by The City as 'disappointing' ?

 

[DD12]

Thanks, Mr. G.Wazoo, for posting the trading update, and for all the other good info. you post

 

[overthewater]

Its good to see the majority of First bus is on the up and up.

To be fair to First Scotland East, the company has finally rid its self of the awful controls placed on it by Scotrail. First has also gone above and beyond with the rest of the company and taken an axe, to balance the accounts. So turnover is down, passenger numbers are down, and the fleet in use is down. If the school contracts don't play ball, further reductions are on the way.

It just a shame its taken four years just to get to this point.

If you can take out FSE would "like-for-like passenger volume growth" be higher?

Here is the Q&A for the post trading: http://media.investis.com/f/firstgroup/pre-close-trading-update.mp3