First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

No Stagecoach either.

National Express are there however (sadly), along with Arriva, MTR, and Keolis/Go-Ahead
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Yes but there were barely any single deckers, which had a much much smaller order and if you've been around in some of the areas of First that generally do not get new stock, you'll see there are large quantities of single deckers which are well past their best, more so than doubles. There were also a number of ex London cascades last year and cascades in other part of the business to reduce the number of non low floor deckers.

I would expect there to be a larger number of double decks this year, but if you ask people in Eastern Counties for example, single deckers are very much the biggest problem right now, bu deckers of course also need to deal with.

First are going to have to buy brand new double deckers for future replacements, as they've now lost the supply of ex London cascades. They have retained a few double deckers which are currently at Dagenham along with some 58 reg E400's which will become surplus once the four Tfl routes move over to Stagecoach following tender losses.
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I'm aware thanks to a depot visit that FEC are getting new buses for the X1 route, any idea if they're likely to get wifi?

The reason I ask is because Stagecoach on the X4 between Peterborough and Milton Keynes has new buses with leather seats and free wifi - the Peterborough to Lowestoft route seems to be just as long so be nice to have wifi and leather seating too

http://www.peterborough.gov.uk/news/latest_news/2011/november/new_gold_buses_launched.aspx

The new First Group interior is leather seats as standard, and Wifi seems to be being rolled out on new buses in Glasgow etc

 

[CatfordCat]

Regarding the whole DDA thing, wasn't there something in the rules that says a non-DDA vehicle can be used in theory provided a compliant alternative using exactly the same means is available?

Or have I imagined this in relation to the RM usage in London?

That is roughly my understanding of it.

Apart from one-off heritage / tourist type services, my understanding is that a service with non compliant vehicles has to be something that's supplementary to the main service, hence short chunks of the 9 and 15 being chosen for the tame routemasters in London, rather than any route of their own.

I don't think there are detailed regulations for exactly what 'supplementary' means in this context (and it's not going to be an issue for a year or two anyway) - if for example, an operator was to run a service with 1 DDA bus an hour and 5 non DDA buses an hour, and claim the latter was a supplementary service, then I rather think they would get sat on. It might however require a test case to establish where the line is.

 

[winston270twm]

Difficult to provide a full picture but based on those operations that I've seen recently/experienced....

First Bristol and Avon - the step entrance decker is actually no more. The really elderly kit is made up of SDs with step floor Darts, early Lance SLFs, early Dart SLFs so guess the Streetlites due (and some service changes) will sort that.

First Somerset - a number of Olympians still working on Taunton routes to Axminster, Yeovil and Tiverton though some are confined to schools. Service changes will reduce PVR and see the last step floors at Bridgwater go.

First Dorset/Yeovil - the oldest Olympians are now S reg ex Bristol and are seeing some regular service (esp in the summer) but there's a number of step floor Darts at Yeovil and a number of R/S reg Darts at Weymouth that are due to go.

First Wyvern - hardly any deckers (what it has are 51 plate or newer) but a few ageing R reg Darts

First Manchester - some ex London Olympians in Rochdale/Oldham (are the Arrows on schools?) but mainly Geminis or e400s but some P/R reg Dart SLFs and B6s still working hard round Bury and Oldham

Would think the priority is to get the oldest single decks replaced as they tend to be in all day service. The deckers are more schools though in some places, they will need to be sorted.

Cornwall still use quite a few deckers on all day services around Penzance & Truro, quite a few ex Bristol examples plus a quantity of former London United Airbus N-reg Olympian/Alexander Royales, although step entrance these should still feature wheelchair lifts from new

 

[BestWestern]

Cornwall still use quite a few deckers on all day services around Penzance & Truro, quite a few ex Bristol examples plus a quantity of former London United Airbus N-reg Olympian/Alexander Royales, although step entrance these should still feature wheelchair lifts from new

One of the issues facing operators though is that the DDA or whatever they're called regulations require other measures aside from simply wheelchair access, and so money needs to be spent on older vehicles which fall down in other areas. Even some early low floors aren't compliant apparently. I can't see First spending great deal on old Olympians, sadly.

I recently heard from a friend with 'contacts', that rumours are again circulating of First pulling out of south Hampshire (Portsmouth, Gosport/Fareham and possibly Southampton), with Arriva being mentioned as a likely successor. I'm inclined to think it's rubbish, as those same rumours were about a good few years ago too, but with the recent activity one can't help but wonder where might be next. Any posters heard anything similar?!

 

[swifty]

Even some early low floors aren't compliant apparently. I can't see First spending great deal on old Olympians, sadly.

A lot of First's Dart SLFs up until S/T reg aren't DDA compliant as they don't feature access ramps. All would require a fair bit of work and cash to add ramps, so they to will need to be replaced in due course.

Yes I had heard similar in regards to Hampshire, it appears to be wild speculation that started further back in this thread.

 

[BestWestern]

A lot of First's Dart SLFs up until S/T reg aren't DDA compliant as they don't feature access ramps. All would require a fair bit of work and cash to add ramps, so they to will need to be replaced in due course.

Yes I had heard similar in regards to Hampshire, it appears to be wild speculation that started further back in this thread.

Yep, could well have started on here! Although my chap heard it from a driver at Hilsea, and as I said that gossip appears to have been around forever in some form or other. Wishful thinking perhaps! I don't see why Arriva is always pitched as the likely successor though, bearing in mind they have nothing for miles and both Stagecoach and Go Ahead are already very well placed to expand.

 

[Volvodart]

http://hsprod.investis.com/servlet/...93249024&ir_client_id=2899&transform=newsitem

" Results of Rights Issue

FirstGroup plc (the "Company") today announces that the 3 for 2 Rights Issue of
722,859,586 New Ordinary Shares at 85 pence per New Ordinary Share announced on
20 May 2013 closed for acceptances at 11.00 a.m. (London time) on 25 June 2013.
The Company received valid acceptances in respect of 633,318,613 New Ordinary
Shares, representing approximately 87.61 per cent. of the total number of New
Ordinary Shares offered to Qualifying Shareholders pursuant to the fully
underwritten Rights Issue.

It is expected that the New Ordinary Shares in uncertificated form will be
credited to CREST accounts as soon as practicable after 8.00 a.m. on 26 June
2013 and that definitive share certificates in respect of New Ordinary Shares
in certificated form will be dispatched to Shareholders by no later than 8 July
2013.

It is expected that the New Ordinary Shares will commence trading, fully paid,
on the London Stock Exchange's main market for listed securities on 26 June
2013.

In accordance with their obligations as Joint Bookrunners in respect of the
Rights Issue as set out in Part XI (Additional Information) of the Prospectus
dated 22 May 2013, Goldman Sachs International, J.P. Morgan Securities plc and
Merrill Lynch International will endeavour to procure subscribers for the
remaining 89,540,973 New Ordinary Shares not validly taken up in the Rights
Issue, failing which Goldman Sachs International, J.P. Morgan Securities plc,
Merrill Lynch International and HSBC Bank plc, acting as Underwriters, have
agreed to acquire, on a several basis, any remaining New Ordinary Shares.

The net proceeds from the placing of such New Ordinary Shares (after the
deduction of the Issue Price of 85 pence per New Ordinary Share and the
expenses of procuring subscribers including any applicable brokerage and
commissions and amounts in respect of VAT which are not recoverable, if any)
will be paid (without interest) to those persons whose rights have lapsed in
accordance with the terms of the Rights Issue, pro rata to their lapsed
provisional allotments, save that individual amounts of less than £5 will not
be paid to such persons but will be paid to the Company.

A further announcement as to the number of New Ordinary Shares for which
subscribers have been procured will be made in due course.

Following completion of the Rights Issue, the Company's issued share capital
will consist of 1,204,926,756 ordinary shares of 5 pence each. The Company
holds 160,779 Ordinary Shares in treasury. Therefore, as at 26 June 2013, the
total number of voting rights in the Company is 1,204,765,977. This figure may
be used by Shareholders as the denominator for the calculations by which they
determine if they are required to notify their interest in, or a change in
their interest in, the Company under the FCA's Disclosure and Transparency
Rules."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.cityam.com/article/firstgroup-gets-near-90-cent-support-critical-rights-issue

"FIRSTGROUP, the heavily indebted transport group that was forced into launching a £615m equity issue, has seen substantial take-up from shareholders despite rocky markets. According to market sources last night, the rights issue attracted support from more than 88 per cent of shareholders, leaving a £60m-£70m rump of shares for the bookrunners to sell in the market. Those on the deal said the rump of shares would be sold easily. The rights shares have been priced at 85p, a massive 62 per cent discount to the share price ahead of the announcement of the deal. There was some speculation last night that FirstGroup might seek a new corporate broker after the dust has settled from the deal. Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan are brokers to the group but former JP Morgan banker Ian Hannam was drafted in to help with the deal. Hannam brought in Bank of America Merrill Lynch to work on the-deal as a bookrunner."

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A lot of First's Dart SLFs up until S/T reg aren't DDA compliant as they don't feature access ramps. All would require a fair bit of work and cash to add ramps, so they to will need to be replaced in due course.

Yes I had heard similar in regards to Hampshire, it appears to be wild speculation that started further back in this thread.

Wild speculation is probably being kind. The entire First disposal story has been manna from heaven for conspiracy theorists and the criminally insane

Personal favourites were Lyell selling their Midland operations to Arriva to fund a purchase of First's Wigan operations..... and the sale of Northampton to Stagecoach/Uno/Centrebus/Arriva* (* - delete as applicable). Of course, nothing is impossible but I don't think FHD is under threat (though one wonders on the long term future of the western ops esp. Yeovil)

You're right on the work to make the older vehicles DDA compliant and, in short, it isn't worth spending the £3k on a shed. As well as the ramp, you have to ensure grab rails and the "ironing board" wheelchair seatback is also installed plus a number of other changes.
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Cornwall still use quite a few deckers on all day services around Penzance & Truro, quite a few ex Bristol examples plus a quantity of former London United Airbus N-reg Olympian/Alexander Royales, although step entrance these should still feature wheelchair lifts from new

Very true and definitely something incongruous about seeing a dual door Olympian in Helston!

Cornwall has always been the home of the elderly decker (think 30 year old VRs etc) and it will require First to either make some canny cascades and/or give up work that works around schools.

The most sensible course of action will be to cascade some newer deckers that have taken the financial hit on NBV to an extent (e.g. their former e400s now used in Weston super Mare), and pop those onto routes like the X80/X81 or Plymouth to Dartmouth/Torpoint services to displace stuff like the ex Bristol and ex London Tridents (T/V/W reg) to Cornwall. After all, that was the Stagecoach trick in the past, cascading stuff from London or Manchester after a few years service there.

At the same time, get the newest Olympians they can find (e.g. the rest of the R/S reg Palatine 2s that Bristol had) and send those to Cornwall for the next few years and get shot of the K reg Olympians that are still working!

 

[mbonwick]

Northampton was on course to be sold, until it became clear that the OFT would get involved. That and the fact that Stagecoach didn't really need to buy anyway...

 

[Volvodart]

http://hsprod.investis.com/servlet/...61090560&ir_client_id=2899&transform=newsitem

" Result of Rump Placing

Following the announcement earlier today regarding valid acceptances under the
fully underwritten Rights Issue announced by FirstGroup plc (the "Company") on
20 May 2013, the Company confirms that Goldman Sachs International, J.P. Morgan
Securities plc and Merrill Lynch International, in their capacity as Joint
Bookrunners, have procured subscribers for all of the 89,540,973 New Ordinary
Shares for which valid acceptances were not received, representing 12.39 per
cent. of New Ordinary Shares, at a price of 91 pence per New Ordinary Share.

The net proceeds from the placing of such New Ordinary Shares (after the
deduction of the Issue Price of 85 pence per New Ordinary Share and the
expenses of procuring subscribers including any applicable brokerage and
commissions and amounts in respect of VAT which are not recoverable, if any)
will be paid (without interest) to those persons whose rights have lapsed in
accordance with the terms of the Rights Issue, pro rata to their lapsed
provisional allotments, save that individual amounts of less than £5 will not
be paid to such persons but will be paid to the Company."

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Northampton was on course to be sold, until it became clear that the OFT would get involved. That and the fact that Stagecoach didn't really need to buy anyway...

The North Devon episode really killed it off before any meaningful discussions had begun. However, there were plenty of "I've been told by a driver" or "I suspect" or "I wouldn't be surprised" comments going around. First's Lothian operations have been sold about 3 times as well

As you say, Stagecoach didn't need to buy as they had essentially choked the life out of First in Northampton.

 

[markie73]

As you say, Stagecoach didn't need to buy as they had essentially choked the life out of First in Northampton.

Spot on, and they will choke First Northampton even more come the 11th August when the three existing services get reduced to only two, makes me wonder just how much longer they will cling to life after this date.

 

[overthewater]

I suspect some of the deals fell though, some of the talk may well have been true but after looking at the books or oft or cc.

 

[tbtc]

The sad thing is that those B10's are superb vehicles, and if it were Stagecoach running them all these years they'd probably still be like new. As it is, First are fortunate that big Volvo's tend to be bombproof and live forever, and so they've managed to plod on despite being neglected. I'm very fond of these stylish, smooth motors, and I'll be rather sad when they go.

True.

It's only once the remaining Scanias (L114?) and B10Ls have been withdrawn from Sheffield that the large number of R/S reg B10BLEs suddenly appear old - I'm sure they were "bomb proof" a year or two ago, but seem to be finally looking their age.

I'll miss them too - they were the future once - just a shame because (as you say) Stagecoach would have looked after its midlife buses a lot better.

The DDA story is much like Pacer upgrading on the railways - is it worth spending money on knackered stock to upgrade it for a short period of time (when the book value of the train/bus isn't great in the first place)?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I suspect some of the deals fell though, some of the talk may well have been true but after looking at the books or oft or cc.

That's the problem. You "SUSPECT".... there's a lot of speculation or, to give it a more accurate description, guessing! Not a personal pop at you, but a general observation of this and other sites. Just a few "informed views" from this very thread


"I expect Stagecoach to take the opportunity to take over the operation in Bridgend and Neath Valley both of which are within easy acess to the main depots in Porth or Aberdare/Cwmbach" - they didn't and First are busy putting new vehicles into Bridgend

"Defo must be something in the roomers Livi's going plus another FSE Depot. Maybe Dumbarton too" Note - this was after Dalkeith's demise had already been announced


The fact is that most of the speculation has been well off the mark. Also, I know, repeat know, that First approached a party about one operation but that the other party quickly said "no thanks" despite it being a geographic fit. It was so quickly dismissed that it can't even be classed as "talks" and I've yet to see it "reported".

 

[Ivo]

I recently heard from a friend with 'contacts', that rumours are again circulating of First pulling out of south Hampshire (Portsmouth, Gosport/Fareham and possibly Southampton), with Arriva being mentioned as a likely successor. I'm inclined to think it's rubbish, as those same rumours were about a good few years ago too, but with the recent activity one can't help but wonder where might be next. Any posters heard anything similar?!

I was told a rumour just yesterday that First are pulling out of Bath and that Stagecoach will take over. The (Polish) driver who told me said he was told by another driver in the canteen. He then told me what he thought of the rumour: "He tell me yesterday, one week ago, two week ago, one month ago, two month ago, one year ago... is not reliable; is rubbish."

The only "rumour" I have heard that turned out to be correct was London. Everything else that I have seen has been either wrong or already confirmed to be on the "transfer list". Ultimately, as I've said already, they're really going to sell Weimar's local depot

As for South Hampshire, they've splashed loads of money on the area of late, continuing this year, and have staged a total network review which is still being fine-tuned some time later. And it's not like they have much competition down there so they can almost do as they please; they are the dominant local operator in Southampton, they operate by the far most important avenue in Fareham and Gosport (and most other routes), and in Portsmouth the small number of Stagecoach routes aside - only one of which (the 21) genuinely serves Portsea Island above anything else - they have a monopoly!

Given the circumstances, they aren't going to go through all of that or abandon such a powerful market position unless someone comes in with something really "special". And I somehow doubt the Germans would be interested in picking up a new bus network in an area in transition.

 

[winston270twm]

I was told a rumour just yesterday that First are pulling out of Bath and that Stagecoach will take over. The (Polish) driver who told me said he was told by another driver in the canteen. He then told me what he thought of the rumour: "He tell me yesterday, one week ago, two week ago, one month ago, two month ago, one year ago... is not reliable; is rubbish."

The only "rumour" I have heard that turned out to be correct was London. Everything else that I have seen has been either wrong or already confirmed to be on the "transfer list". Ultimately, as I've said already, they're really going to sell Weimar's local depot

As for South Hampshire, they've splashed loads of money on the area of late, continuing this year, and have staged a total network review which is still being fine-tuned some time later. And it's not like they have much competition down there so they can almost do as they please; they are the dominant local operator in Southampton, they operate by the far most important avenue in Fareham and Gosport (and most other routes), and in Portsmouth the small number of Stagecoach routes aside - only one of which (the 21) genuinely serves Portsea Island above anything else - they have a monopoly!

Given the circumstances, they aren't going to go through all of that or abandon such a powerful market position unless someone comes in with something really "special". And I somehow doubt the Germans would be interested in picking up a new bus network in an area in transition.

Ivo,

I'd agree with all your comments above, additionally I think some smaller operations could still be sold off, but certainly no big ones. The smaller operations I see as at risk are those where the new livery & network reviews are slow to be rolled out or no new vehicles or newer cascades are being re-deployed.

Which rules out Aberdeen, Cyrmu, Berkshire, Hampshire, East England, Bristol, Bath etc. I also think York is safe despite what some suggest on here with the recent network review/public consultation being announced.

Devon & Cornwall, East Scotland, Leicester & bits of Somerset could still potentially be sold off or face further cut backs

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ivo,

I'd agree with all your comments above, additionally I think some smaller operations could still be sold off, but certainly no big ones. The smaller operations I see as at risk are those where the new livery & network reviews are slow to be rolled out or no new vehicles or newer cascades are being re-deployed.

Which rules out Aberdeen, Cyrmu, Berkshire, Hampshire, East England, Bristol, Bath etc. I also think York is safe despite what some suggest on here with the recent network review/public consultation being announced.

Devon & Cornwall, East Scotland, Leicester & bits of Somerset could still potentially be sold off or face further cut backs

In truth, apart from London, which big ones have been sold?

There will undoubtedly be the odd withdrawal - somewhere like Yeovil could be a candidate where a large depot has incrementally lost work so only just over a dozen vehicles are based there. Similarly, there are a number of other locations (H&W, Leicester, Haverfordwest, York, Potteries) that look isolated and a bit vulnerable but I'd expect them to keep hold of Leicester (which is always mentioned) in preference to somewhere like Hereford and Worcester (which isn't)?

Somerset was one of the areas mentioned in the infamous disposal list but that was listing some 160 vehicles. Clearly, the old Badgerline business has been recreated, and that leaves Bridgwater and Taunton now stitched onto D&C. Perhaps an indication that no-one wanted to buy especially as:

• Main routes are being competed on by Webberbus
• Much of the local services are marginal
• It traditionally has been a challenging area to make money

The odd disposal and/or rationalisation may occur but most of the rumours reported are bull. I guess if you speculate enough then eventually you'll get one right - in much the same way that economists have predicted 8 of the last 3 recessions

 

[F Great Eastern]

According to posts on an Irish forum, the Aircoach express Dublin to Cork service is doing very well now passenger number wise and now most days there are a few reliefs having to run as they're filling up 51 seat coaches at peak hours and leaving low double figures behind in Dublin and Cork at such time.

The city center services are supposed to be performing slightly better since a tweak of the way they run which saw service withdrawal from five stops,, which has saw frequency reduced from six an hour to four an hour and duplication cut back which no doubt saves cash.

The Belfast route still seems not to have took off that well, despite the fact it's quicker, cheaper and more regular than any of the competition. People just generally don't want to seem to desert the competition, but saying that it is hard to take on the competition when they such competition is a joint venture between Translink (NI Public Operator) and Bus Eireann (ROI Public operator)

The Dalkey route seems to be doing pretty average but there is word on the street that the Greystones service is not doing that well passenger number wise, and reports that one of the coaches that operate every hour was seen completely empty, not sure how true that is.

So a mixed bag here, and still very much some work to do it seems.

 

[winston270twm]

I was told a rumour just yesterday that First are pulling out of Bath and that Stagecoach will take over. The (Polish) driver who told me said he was told by another driver in the canteen. He then told me what he thought of the rumour: "He tell me yesterday, one week ago, two week ago, one month ago, two month ago, one year ago... is not reliable; is rubbish."

The only "rumour" I have heard that turned out to be correct was London. Everything else that I have seen has been either wrong or already confirmed to be on the "transfer list". Ultimately, as I've said already, they're really going to sell Weimar's local depot

As for South Hampshire, they've splashed loads of money on the area of late, continuing this year, and have staged a total network review which is still being fine-tuned some time later. And it's not like they have much competition down there so they can almost do as they please; they are the dominant local operator in Southampton, they operate by the far most important avenue in Fareham and Gosport (and most other routes), and in Portsmouth the small number of Stagecoach routes aside - only one of which (the 21) genuinely serves Portsea Island above anything else - they have a monopoly!

Given the circumstances, they aren't going to go through all of that or abandon such a powerful market position unless someone comes in with something really "special". And I somehow doubt the Germans would be interested in picking up a new bus network in an area in transition.

Sorry posted twice!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In truth, apart from London, which big ones have been sold?

There will undoubtedly be the odd withdrawal - somewhere like Yeovil could be a candidate where a large depot has incrementally lost work so only just over a dozen vehicles are based there. Similarly, there are a number of other locations (H&W, Leicester, Haverfordwest, York, Potteries) that look isolated and a bit vulnerable but I'd expect them to keep hold of Leicester (which is always mentioned) in preference to somewhere like Hereford and Worcester (which isn't)?

Somerset was one of the areas mentioned in the infamous disposal list but that was listing some 160 vehicles. Clearly, the old Badgerline business has been recreated, and that leaves Bridgwater and Taunton now stitched onto D&C. Perhaps an indication that no-one wanted to buy especially as:

• Main routes are being competed on by Webberbus
• Much of the local services are marginal
• It traditionally has been a challenging area to make money

The odd disposal and/or rationalisation may occur but most of the rumours reported are bull. I guess if you speculate enough then eventually you'll get one right - in much the same way that economists have predicted 8 of the last 3 recessions

No other big ones have been sold or will be sold, that was my point. Improved performance at the big ops will have a bigger effect of increasing profits than improvements at the smaller bus divisions.

By all accounts Worcester is quite a profitable area for First hence why they saw Rotala off so quick from setting up in the City. Leicester on the other hand isn't that profitable and I understand is loosing ground to both Arriva & Centrebus, additionally much of Leicester's fleet is W, 51 or 02 reg so will needs some sizeable investment in the coming years.....

 

[overthewater]

That's the problem. You "SUSPECT".... there's a lot of speculation or, to give it a more accurate description, guessing! Not a personal pop at you, but a general observation of this and other sites. Just a few "informed views" from this very thread
"I expect Stagecoach to take the opportunity to take over the operation in Bridgend and Neath Valley both of which are within easy acess to the main depots in Porth or Aberdare/Cwmbach" - they didn't and First are busy putting new vehicles into Bridgend

"Defo must be something in the roomers Livi's going plus another FSE Depot. Maybe Dumbarton too" Note - this was after Dalkeith's demise had already been announced


The fact is that most of the speculation has been well off the mark. Also, I know, repeat know, that First approached a party about one operation but that the other party quickly said "no thanks" despite it being a geographic fit. It was so quickly dismissed that it can't even be classed as "talks" and I've yet to see it "reported".

I can fully understand what you mean, I agree some of the talk was off the mark, and I may have got a few wrong. When I made up the lists of possible sell off I only went for the most likely cases, It never had south Wales, nor yorkshire nor anything from bath or bristol.

On another forum: Someone posted details about the dalkeith depot a few weeks before it's doom in march 2012, shortly after death nail, it come out in the wash about lothian etc. This same person made further details about the rest of company and who might be in the running including Nat ex and go ahead. Now it never happened and we can only conclude the company's took an interest but like buying a new.sofa once seeing it up close decided it was not for them.

A tad floppy I know but I do believe in some cases it might will be correct.

 

[Volvodart]

Sorry posted twice!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Leicester on the other hand isn't that profitable and I understand is loosing ground to both Arriva & Centrebus, additionally much of Leicester's fleet is W, 51 or 02 reg so will needs some sizeable investment in the coming years.....

Leicester has one of the highest profit margins in First at over 17%. Aberdeen has an older fleet than Leicester with similar large proportion of older buses (about 60% of the Aberdeen fleet is from 2000-1) and has started to receive new buses. I expect the same will happen to Leicester too. Aberdeen's profit margin is a lot less than Leicester.

 

[winston270twm]

Leicester has one of the highest profit margins in First at over 17%. Aberdeen has an older fleet than Leicester with similar large proportion of older buses (about 60% of the Aberdeen fleet is from 2000-1) and has started to receive new buses. I expect the same will happen to Leicester too. Aberdeen's profit margin is a lot less than Leicester.

Hmmmmm.... is that 17% margin from the latest figures? It begs the question if Leicester is doing so well why they haven't rolled out the new brand any quicker.

It seems I have been told duff info

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sorry posted twice!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No other big ones have been sold or will be sold, that was my point. Improved performance at the big ops will have a bigger effect of increasing profits than improvements at the smaller bus divisions.

By all accounts Worcester is quite a profitable area for First hence why they saw Rotala off so quick from setting up in the City. Leicester on the other hand isn't that profitable and I understand is loosing ground to both Arriva & Centrebus, additionally much of Leicester's fleet is W, 51 or 02 reg so will needs some sizeable investment in the coming years.....

My mention about big ops being sold was a rhetorical question and was a general point, not specific to your post. Sorry for the confusion.

Leicester is a profitable depot and with the right sort of focus, could be a real jewel. Granted, the W reg deckers (of which there's 12) do need replacing and sending elsewhere. The rest is DDA compliant so it's not the problem that other operations are. However, fleet investment is needed sooner rather than later and the lack of a paintbrush being brandished is odd :-?

As you say, Worcester is generally fairly decent territory (but hey, so was Redditch) but I think they learned a lesson after Rotala. My point was that just because an operation is isolated or even a bit small, it isn't then nailed on for disposal. They were a bit cautious with the paint there though I think a few transfers in have brought more lilac into the local area

 

[winston270twm]

My mention about big ops being sold was a rhetorical question and was a general point, not specific to your post. Sorry for the confusion.

Leicester is a profitable depot and with the right sort of focus, could be a real jewel. Granted, the W reg deckers (of which there's 12) do need replacing and sending elsewhere. The rest is DDA compliant so it's not the problem that other operations are. However, fleet investment is needed sooner rather than later and the lack of a paintbrush being brandished is odd :-?

As you say, Worcester is generally fairly decent territory (but hey, so was Redditch) but I think they learned a lesson after Rotala. My point was that just because an operation is isolated or even a bit small, it isn't then nailed on for disposal. They were a bit cautious with the paint there though I think a few transfers in have brought more lilac into the local area

Granted, but even a profitable op the size of Worcester or Leicester with approx 90 & 120 vehicles respectively. Even if both op's made say 20% margin, a couple of % increase in margin at a large operation such as Glasgow, Manchester or FWY will generate far more profit in terms of millions due to their scale........ % profit margins need to be weighed up against the size of the fleet, that said t the end of the day it all mounts up & helps.

Redditch is thought to be good bus territory, but not when two operators were going head to head on all the high frequency town services. If Rotala do manage to retain the former First op once the Oft have made their decision known, Rotala should be able to make some decent money with First out of the way.

I see the First group shareprice is bouncing back quite strongly after this mornings dip

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Granted, but even a profitable op the size of Worcester or Leicester with approx 90 & 120 vehicles respectively. Even if both op's made say 20% margin, a couple of % increase in margin at a large operation such as Glasgow, Manchester or FWY will generate far more profit in terms of millions due to their scale........ % profit margins need to be weighed up against the size of the fleet, that said t the end of the day it all mounts up & helps.

Redditch is thought to be good bus territory, but not when two operators were going head to head on all the high frequency town services. If Rotala do manage to retain the former First op once the Oft have made their decision known, Rotala should be able to make some decent money with First out of the way.

I see the First group shareprice is bouncing back quite strongly after this mornings dip

Absolutely, making a 1% improvement on a big operation will deliver better bottom line than 2% on a tiddler, and that's what First need to deliver (conceptually, I might add).

My line about Worcester and Redditch was the utter complacency when Diamond first appeared in Redditch. It was when they got a real foothold that First woke up but it was too late by then; that was the lesson that they learned in ensuring that they repulsed the Worcester operation as quickly as possible and yes, without the competition, Rotala should do very nicely in Redditch as long as they too don't get complacent.

 

[winston270twm]

My line about Worcester and Redditch was the utter complacency when Diamond first appeared in Redditch. It was when they got a real foothold that First woke up but it was too late by then; that was the lesson that they learned in ensuring that they repulsed the Worcester operation as quickly as possible and yes, without the competition, Rotala should do very nicely in Redditch as long as they too don't get complacent.

First Group have had competition in Redditch since before Diamond & Rotala were even formed, the Diamond Redditch operation originated from Pete's Travel/People's Express days, I think if I remember right that Diamond may have exited Redditch whilst under Go-Ahead Group ownership but then re-entered under Rotala ownership. First have had and missed the opportunity to prevent Diamond from re-entering the Redditch bus market
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Kind of First Group related, Dean Finch continues to amass a senior management team made up of primarily former First Group management

http://www.scotsman.com/business/transport/mary-grant-jumps-aboard-national-express-1-2975452

 

[Ivo]

I've got to be honest - I think the spate of sales and closures is mostly over. We might still see a couple of "tiddlers" - e.g. Bridgwater and Yeovil from my local perspective - kick the bucket, but I'd be surprised if anything big came about now. Unless of course someone came along with an improbable offer for somewhere unexpected, but that of course is another story and bordering on hostile takeover territory depending on how it is managed.

I can fully understand what you mean, I agree some of the talk was off the mark, and I may have got a few wrong. When I made up the lists of possible sell off I only went for the most likely cases, It never had south Wales, nor yorkshire nor anything from bath or bristol in a serious light.

200/1 was still worth a punt though [my edit]

 

[winston270twm]

I've got to be honest - I think the spate of sales and closures is mostly over. We might still see a couple of "tiddlers" - e.g. Bridgwater and Yeovil from my local perspective - kick the bucket, but I'd be surprised if anything big came about now. Unless of course someone came along with an improbable offer for somewhere unexpected, but that of course is another story and bordering on hostile takeover territory depending on how it is managed.

Ivo,

I wouldn't be surprised if First Group haven't already had numerous opportunistic offers for some/all of its crown jewels within UK form the other big groups. No matter, how much was offered its those ones that will turn the divisions performance around

 

[tbtc]

I wouldn't be surprised if First Group haven't already had numerous opportunistic offers for some/all of its crown jewels within UK form the other big groups

I think that if the other big companies are interested in bits of First, they'll be interested in the profitable bits rather than the fire-sale stuff that's making losses or needs big investment.

It's a buyers market though - Stagecoach/ NatEx/ Arriva (etc) don't need to buy, but First do/did need to sell.