First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

With the Share offering complete, do we have actually details where all of it the raised capital will be used? I know some will be used on Debt, but will the remaining share really be used for new buses and coaches?

 

[winston270twm]

With the Share offering complete, do we have actually details where all of it the raised capital will be used? I know some will be used on Debt, but will the remaining share really be used for new buses and coaches?

The share offering isn't strictly complete until Wed 26th when they announce the take-up of the First Group rights shares. I think approx £200 million was being used to pay down debt to ensure First Group retains its investment grade & doesn't downgraded to junk. The remainder will be used towards a £1.6 Billion capital expenditure programme over the next four years investing in all divisions to improve performance.

I think First Group realistically need to be replacing at least 10%+ of its fleet over the next two years i.e. 750+ new buses per year, to finally see off all remaining step entrance vehicles / non DDA complaint low floor single deckers & start making further inroads in to reducing the numbers of early B10BLE's / Scania L113 / L94's

 

[overthewater]

What is the current Fleet order for this year? do we know where everything is going? and who is getting what?

How many buses are in the pipe line for next years, a rough idea must be know since the begging cap come out to get more funds.

 

[winston270twm]

What is the current Fleet order for this year? do we know where everything is going? and who is getting what?

How many buses are in the pipe line for next years, a rough idea must be know since the begging cap come out to get more funds.

464 buses currently due for 2013/14

http://www.firstgroup.com/latest_news/?id=009151

Surely they need to now top that order up by another 300 plus to make a bigger impact! Only 42 x new double deckers are on order

 

[overthewater]

464 buses currently due for 2013/14

http://www.firstgroup.com/latest_news/?id=009151

Surely they need to now top that order up by another 300 plus to make a bigger impact! Only 42 x new double deckers are on order

Is First Edinburgh getting any? is First Cornwall getting any? what about First Leicester?

Also I dont think we will see any more buses being brought this financial year. I have heard next years order will have a good number of deckers for the Commonwealth games in Glasgow

 

[winston270twm]

Is First Edinburgh getting any? is First Cornwall getting any? what about First Leicester?

Also I dont think we will see any more buses being brought this financial year. I have heard next years order will have a good number of deckers for the Commonwealth games in Glasgow

Don't know, you'll have get a copy of First Group Fleetlist from BBP, they have details printed of where some of this years new intake are expected to be heading.

A number of the 464 buses will no doubt already be accounted for at Cymru / East England / Glasgow & Manchester

 

[swifty]

Well this is what was provisionally allocated to West & Wales, some have already been delivered now.

33825 - 33847 Enviro 400 for Lawrence Hill.

44573 - 44581 Enviro 200 (31 seats) for Swansea. DELIVERED

44582 - 44595 Enviro 200 (36 seats) for Swansea. DELIVERED

47405 - 47413 Wright Streelite DF for Hoeford.

47414 - 47424 Wright Streelite DF for Hilsea.

47425 - 47434 Wright Streelite DF for Southampton.

47435 - 47465 Wrightbus Streetlite DF for Lawrence Hill & Hengrove.

47742 - 47767 Wrightbus Streetlite Max DF for Hilsea.

47768 - 47778 Wrightbus Streetlite Max DF for Bath. DUE

47779 - 47795 Wrightbus Streetlite Max DF for Swansea.

49002 - 49010 Optare Versa V1080 for Cymru. DELIVERED

49300 - 49309 Optare Versa V1170 for Cymru. DELIVERED

69537 - 69540 Volvo B7RLE Wright Eclipse 2 for Hoeford.

 

[Ivo]

Only 42 x new double deckers are on order

33825 - 33847 Enviro 400 for Lawrence Hill.

You mean to tell me that Lawrence Hill are getting more than half of the year's decker allocation (23/42)? I'm not even sure which route(s) at LH would really benefit from them; most decker routes already use Geminis and there's little to no sense in displacing those as part of a cascade...

 

[swifty]

As I said, provisional. I am aware that East England are supposed to be due 21 E400s for the X1, two nearly new E400s were recently purchased from Ensign for East and are in store at Dagenham.

 

[Volvodart]

I think First Group realistically need to be replacing at least 10%+ of its fleet over the next two years i.e. 750+ new buses per year, to finally see off all remaining step entrance vehicles / non DDA complaint low floor single deckers & start making further inroads in to reducing the numbers of early B10BLE's / Scania L113 / L94's

With the disposal of London, this reduces to 650+ per year, if they were to target 10%. They have previously talked about maintaining the renewal rate at the rate it would have been had they not decreased the fleet, and if that were to be kept the rate would be nearer 500 buses per year.

 

[BestWestern]

Well this is what was provisionally allocated to West & Wales, some have already been delivered now.

33825 - 33847 Enviro 400 for Lawrence Hill.

44573 - 44581 Enviro 200 (31 seats) for Swansea. DELIVERED

44582 - 44595 Enviro 200 (36 seats) for Swansea. DELIVERED

47405 - 47413 Wright Streelite DF for Hoeford.

47414 - 47424 Wright Streelite DF for Hilsea.

47425 - 47434 Wright Streelite DF for Southampton.

47435 - 47465 Wrightbus Streetlite DF for Lawrence Hill & Hengrove.

47742 - 47767 Wrightbus Streetlite Max DF for Hilsea.

47768 - 47778 Wrightbus Streetlite Max DF for Bath. DUE

47779 - 47795 Wrightbus Streetlite Max DF for Swansea.

49002 - 49010 Optare Versa V1080 for Cymru. DELIVERED

49300 - 49309 Optare Versa V1170 for Cymru. DELIVERED

69537 - 69540 Volvo B7RLE Wright Eclipse 2 for Hoeford.

Some interesting allocations there. I'm slightly bemused by the tiny allocation of B7's for Hoeford, they have a mixed bag but I can't think what they will replace unless it's a few B10BLE's - I hope not, I'm rather fond of them! Presumably a Streetlite Max is a full size lightweight, along the lines of a Dart SPD? In which case First have seemingly finally realised the savings potential in using vehicles of this type rather than 'big bus' stock everywhere, as Stagecoach and Arriva have done for some time now. The Streetlites for Hilsea should see of the second hand Darts there, and perhaps the last few minibuses too, and the SL Max allocation presumably replaces the 09 plate B7's - perhps they will join the new ones at Hoeford? Wright's integral range seems set to cost Volvo a few quid judging by that list!

 

[winston270twm]

With the disposal of London, this reduces to 650+ per year, if they were to target 10%. They have previously talked about maintaining the renewal rate at the rate it would have been had they not decreased the fleet, and if that were to be kept the rate would be nearer 500 buses per year.

Do I take it that First Groups UK bus fleet strength will be down to 6500 - 6600 ish once the London sale is complete? I understand what they may be targeting, but in the short term they still have large numbers of step entrance vehicles plus numerous early B10BLE & Scania L113/L94 dating back from the days when First Group took delivery of 800 - 900 new buses per year. Surely in the say the First two years the new intake should be increased to help them catch up & the latter two years it could drop closer to 350 - 400 per year. They only have 18 months until all single deckers need to be DDA compliant

 

[BestWestern]

Do I take it that First Groups UK bus fleet strength will be down to 6500 - 6600 ish once the London sale is complete? I understand what they may be targeting, but in the short term they still have large numbers of step entrance vehicles plus numerous early B10BLE & Scania L113/L94 dating back from the days when First Group took delivery of 800 - 900 new buses per year. Surely in the say the First two years the new intake should be increased to help them catch up & the latter two years it could drop closer to 350 - 400 per year. They only have 18 months until all single deckers need to be DDA compliant

Regarding the early low floors, I'd have thought the priority for replacement would be the vast numbers of early 'Barbie' Darts still in use; R, S and T plate Pointer 2's are still abundant in most of the main fleets. Typically, Darts of that vintage are rotting nicely by now, and bearing in mind First's general standard of maintenance it's surprising they're all still going. Were they additionally galvanised or similar I wonder, bearing in mind they were very high spec vehicles for their time? The B10BLE's are very solid, as is their Wright bodywork, and so I would have thought they have a few years in them yet if desired. In fact they seem better put together and certainly better to travel in than their newer equivalent in my experience. I spotted one in the new livery the other day and it actually looked rather smart, the previous scheme never did suit their lines particularly well.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Some interesting allocations there. I'm slightly bemused by the tiny allocation of B7's for Hoeford, they have a mixed bag but I can't think what they will replace unless it's a few B10BLE's - I hope not, I'm rather fond of them! Presumably a Streetlite Max is a full size lightweight, along the lines of a Dart SPD? In which case First have seemingly finally realised the savings potential in using vehicles of this type rather than 'big bus' stock everywhere, as Stagecoach and Arriva have done for some time now. The Streetlites for Hilsea should see of the second hand Darts there, and perhaps the last few minibuses too, and the SL Max allocation presumably replaces the 09 plate B7's - perhps they will join the new ones at Hoeford? Wright's integral range seems set to cost Volvo a few quid judging by that list!

Think the new B7s for Hoeford are additional for Eclipse services - sure I read that somewhere

 

[F Great Eastern]

Over 200 deckers were delivered last year for the Olympics and that is before you take into account the Hybrids that came in the same year with barely any single deckers

The priority now needs to be the elderly singles which is what is being done, I'm sure in 2014/2015 they'll order more doubles.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You mean to tell me that Lawrence Hill are getting more than half of the year's decker allocation (23/42)? I'm not even sure which route(s) at LH would really benefit from them; most decker routes already use Geminis and there's little to no sense in displacing those as part of a cascade...

If all 23 do arrive (as some rumour was saying that fewer might arrive - that said, if I had a tenner for every internet rumour that was bobbins......), then the most logical move would be to replace the W-PAE Volvo B7TLs.

They could then be sent elsewhere within the group to replace Olympians - idle and non-informed speculation but they could be handy for FHD. As well as similar to native examples, they could replace Olympians directly (e.g. Weymouth) and displace their Tridents to Devon/Cornwall for further Olympian replacement there. However, that all seems a bit too neat so disregard - don't want to be starting another rumour up!

 

[winston270twm]

Over 200 deckers were delivered last year for the Olympics and that is before you take into account the Hybrids that came in the same year with barely any single deckers

The priority now needs to be the elderly singles which is what is being done, I'm sure in 2014/2015 they'll order more doubles.

200+ new deckers is not that large an order considering the size of the group fleet, even more that they were pretty much concentrated in generally only two areas i.e. Manchester & Leeds.

What is likely to replace the remaining step entry deckers, single deckers? Surely First Group aren't planning to continue to use these up until the end of 2016 when DDA will deem them surplus to requirements

 

[87015]

Just failed to pass the PQQ for Crossrail as well. Ouch.

 

[F Great Eastern]

No Stagecoach either.

National Express are there however (sadly), along with Arriva, MTR, and Keolis/Go-Ahead
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

200+ new deckers is not that large an order considering the size of the group fleet, even more that they were pretty much concentrated in generally only two areas i.e. Manchester & Leeds.

Yes but there were barely any single deckers, which had a much much smaller order and if you've been around in some of the areas of First that generally do not get new stock, you'll see there are large quantities of single deckers which are well past their best, more so than doubles. There were also a number of ex London cascades last year and cascades in other part of the business to reduce the number of non low floor deckers.

I would expect there to be a larger number of double decks this year, but if you ask people in Eastern Counties for example, single deckers are very much the biggest problem right now, bu deckers of course also need to deal with.

 

[Ivo]

Regarding the whole DDA thing, wasn't there something in the rules that says a non-DDA vehicle can be used in theory provided a compliant alternative using exactly the same means is available?

Or have I imagined this in relation to the RM usage in London?

 

[Aictos]

As I said, provisional. I am aware that East England are supposed to be due 21 E400s for the X1, two nearly new E400s were recently purchased from Ensign for East and are in store at Dagenham.

I'm aware thanks to a depot visit that FEC are getting new buses for the X1 route, any idea if they're likely to get wifi?

The reason I ask is because Stagecoach on the X4 between Peterborough and Milton Keynes has new buses with leather seats and free wifi - the Peterborough to Lowestoft route seems to be just as long so be nice to have wifi and leather seating too

http://www.peterborough.gov.uk/news/latest_news/2011/november/new_gold_buses_launched.aspx

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.cityam.com/article/firstgroup-closes-healthy-take-615m-rights-issue

"FIRSTGROUP, the heavily indebted transport group, is expected to announce a successful conclusion to its £615m rights issue tomorrow. Investors in the company, which lost out on the chance to run the potentially lucrative west coast rail franchise, were far from unanimous about the need for a large equity issue. But the group, which is chaired by Aberdeen Asset Management chief executive Martin Gilbert, argued it needed the new funding to avoid a credit rating downgrade and issued new rights shares at 85p each, a bumper 62 per cent discount to the price ahead of the deal. Despite brokers at UBS cutting their price target for the company, FirstGroup shares have not fallen below 90p, and were yesterday at 98p, comfortably above the 85p rights price. Bankers on the deal signalled their confidence in the take-up of the rights shares, predicting a take-up of possibly more than 90 per cent. That would represent a significant achievement given the lack of enthusiasm for the issue when it was first announced. Former JP Morgan banker Ian Hannam advised the board, alongside JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and Bank of America Merrill Lynch."

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

200+ new deckers is not that large an order considering the size of the group fleet, even more that they were pretty much concentrated in generally only two areas i.e. Manchester & Leeds.

What is likely to replace the remaining step entry deckers, single deckers? Surely First Group aren't planning to continue to use these up until the end of 2016 when DDA will deem them surplus to requirements

Difficult to provide a full picture but based on those operations that I've seen recently/experienced....

First Bristol and Avon - the step entrance decker is actually no more. The really elderly kit is made up of SDs with step floor Darts, early Lance SLFs, early Dart SLFs so guess the Streetlites due (and some service changes) will sort that.

First Somerset - a number of Olympians still working on Taunton routes to Axminster, Yeovil and Tiverton though some are confined to schools. Service changes will reduce PVR and see the last step floors at Bridgwater go.

First Dorset/Yeovil - the oldest Olympians are now S reg ex Bristol and are seeing some regular service (esp in the summer) but there's a number of step floor Darts at Yeovil and a number of R/S reg Darts at Weymouth that are due to go.

First Wyvern - hardly any deckers (what it has are 51 plate or newer) but a few ageing R reg Darts

First Manchester - some ex London Olympians in Rochdale/Oldham (are the Arrows on schools?) but mainly Geminis or e400s but some P/R reg Dart SLFs and B6s still working hard round Bury and Oldham

Would think the priority is to get the oldest single decks replaced as they tend to be in all day service. The deckers are more schools though in some places, they will need to be sorted.

 

[overthewater]

http://www.cityam.com/article/firstgroup-closes-healthy-take-615m-rights-issue

"FIRSTGROUP, the heavily indebted transport group, is expected to announce a successful conclusion to its £615m rights issue tomorrow. Investors in the company, which lost out on the chance to run the potentially lucrative west coast rail franchise, were far from unanimous about the need for a large equity issue. But the group, which is chaired by Aberdeen Asset Management chief executive Martin Gilbert, argued it needed the new funding to avoid a credit rating downgrade and issued new rights shares at 85p each, a bumper 62 per cent discount to the price ahead of the deal. Despite brokers at UBS cutting their price target for the company, FirstGroup shares have not fallen below 90p, and were yesterday at 98p, comfortably above the 85p rights price. Bankers on the deal signalled their confidence in the take-up of the rights shares, predicting a take-up of possibly more than 90 per cent. That would represent a significant achievement given the lack of enthusiasm for the issue when it was first announced. Former JP Morgan banker Ian Hannam advised the board, alongside JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and Bank of America Merrill Lynch."

Extremely good news,

Difficult to provide a full picture but based on those operations that I've seen recently/experienced....

First Bristol and Avon - the step entrance decker is actually no more. The really elderly kit is made up of SDs with step floor Darts, early Lance SLFs, early Dart SLFs so guess the Streetlites due (and some service changes) will sort that.

First Somerset - a number of Olympians still working on Taunton routes to Axminster, Yeovil and Tiverton though some are confined to schools. Service changes will reduce PVR and see the last step floors at Bridgwater go.

First Dorset/Yeovil - the oldest Olympians are now S reg ex Bristol and are seeing some regular service (esp in the summer) but there's a number of step floor Darts at Yeovil and a number of R/S reg Darts at Weymouth that are due to go.

First Wyvern - hardly any deckers (what it has are 51 plate or newer) but a few ageing R reg Darts

First Manchester - some ex London Olympians in Rochdale/Oldham (are the Arrows on schools?) but mainly Geminis or e400s but some P/R reg Dart SLFs and B6s still working hard round Bury and Oldham

Would think the priority is to get the oldest single decks replaced as they tend to be in all day service. The deckers are more schools though in some places, they will need to be sorted.

First Scotland East, has a few step entry deckers left, but there will all be gone with old Glasgow Ex london tridents moving in, I think X reg.

The Single decker fleet is where the money does need to be spent. Its rather poor at the moment, its all low floor but well rather past it in real terms with 13 to 17 years old. Even the "02" plate Citaro are ever on the road.

 

[Deerfold]

Do I take it that First Groups UK bus fleet strength will be down to 6500 - 6600 ish once the London sale is complete?

The London sale was complete as of 22/06 - buses are now being operated by Metroline and Tower Transit.

First are only operating the small rump of routes at Dagenham for the next few months.

 

[radamfi]

Thames Transit.

lol - Tower Transit. Thames Transit is, for those unaware, the Harry Blundred minibus, then midibus operation in Oxford until sale to Stagecoach. Stagecoach still use Thames Transit on the legal lettering.

 

[Deerfold]

lol - Tower Transit. Thames Transit is, for those unaware, the Harry Blundred minibus, then midibus operation in Oxford until sale to Stagecoach. Stagecoach still use Thames Transit on the legal lettering.

Oops. Indeed. It's been a long day.

 

[34D]

Regarding the whole DDA thing, wasn't there something in the rules that says a non-DDA vehicle can be used in theory provided a compliant alternative using exactly the same means is available?

Or have I imagined this in relation to the RM usage in London?

Tour services are exempt. Maybe that's it?

There is a concession to allow a non-compliant vehicle to operate 20 days a year.

This will help the smaller operators, I understand.

 

[tbtc]

Fifteen years ago I remember thinking that First seemed like The Future. They had huge numbers of low floor buses - these newfangled B10BLEs and Darts, they had a modern colour scheme... Stagecoach still seemed to be buying B10Ms and still had their dated "Stripes" livery (I grew up in eastern Scotland, so had been used to seeing the three stripes for over a decade by this point).

Now, First still have those large batches of BLEs and Darts - there's a "bubble" of them, growing older and older and really needing replaced.

So, whilst I'd love brand new deckers on my local First route, I completely understand the need for new single deckers - those modern BLEs from ten years ago have had precious little maintenance/ refurbishment (e.g. we still have them running round Sheffield in the old red/yellow "Mainline" seat covers).

Annoyingly, the stop/start nature of First (feast and famine) has meant that the fleet isn't being replaced at a timely rate, but they do seem to be doing something about it now.

 

[BestWestern]

Fifteen years ago I remember thinking that First seemed like The Future. They had huge numbers of low floor buses - these newfangled B10BLEs and Darts, they had a modern colour scheme... Stagecoach still seemed to be buying B10Ms and still had their dated "Stripes" livery (I grew up in eastern Scotland, so had been used to seeing the three stripes for over a decade by this point).

Now, First still have those large batches of BLEs and Darts - there's a "bubble" of them, growing older and older and really needing replaced.

So, whilst I'd love brand new deckers on my local First route, I completely understand the need for new single deckers - those modern BLEs from ten years ago have had precious little maintenance/ refurbishment (e.g. we still have them running round Sheffield in the old red/yellow "Mainline" seat covers).

Annoyingly, the stop/start nature of First (feast and famine) has meant that the fleet isn't being replaced at a timely rate, but they do seem to be doing something about it now.

The sad thing is that those B10's are superb vehicles, and if it were Stagecoach running them all these years they'd probably still be like new. As it is, First are fortunate that big Volvo's tend to be bombproof and live forever, and so they've managed to plod on despite being neglected. I'm very fond of these stylish, smooth motors, and I'll be rather sad when they go.