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First Group: General Discussion

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Are there any towns or cities where bus services have improved since the Thatcher-inspired pressurisation of most municipal operators to sell their fleets to private operators ??

and some of it is a curate's egg

as discussed in the Lincolnshire thread ( which now now seems to be talking about all PT in lincs not just rail )

the Lincoln Stagecoach route 2 out to washingborough - Heighington and Branston now has 3 buses an hour spread evenly across the hour on a 20 minute gap from early morning through to 7 or 8 pm

pre deregulation there was an hourly NBC lincolnshire 2 for most of the day, a shorter day but still hourly 2A from Enterpridse and silver dawn - running a few minutes apart and over a slightly different route through washingborough and heighington

immediately post de-reg the LCT51 started running a similar route to the now Roadcar 2 - complete with Beech Road estate loop but again within a couple of minutes of the 2 and 2 A

following Tracky taking control of both LCT and Roadcar the 51 was knocked off but 2s ran earlier and later in the day ( right up to a last departure from Lincoln after 11 pm which ran back from the west end of Beech road into lincoln as a 631 arriving back in Lincoln not far short of midnight )

current timetable doesn't have evening journeys ( presumably as LCC bus funding is focused on the Connect routes) - but has three buses an hour through the day

the 'connect 5' and 31 (nee 631) also provide 3 buses every 2 hours along the b1188 vs 1 per hour or even 1 per 2 hours under NBC ...
 
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MK Tom

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From 11 August 2013

First 2 Northampton Town Centre - Rectory Farm - Blackthorn
(Monday to Saturday)
Timetable revised.

Sunday service WITHDRAWN.
No change on Monday to Friday or Saturday.

First 4 Northampton Town Centre - Kingsthorpe - Obelisk Rise
(Monday to Sunday) Service WITHDRAWN.

First 4A Northampton Town Centre - Kingsthorpe - Acre Lane
(Monday to Saturday)
Timetable revised.

Sunday service WITHDRAWN.
No change to Monday to Friday or Saturday.


This leaves First with two services, six days a week...
 
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MK Tom

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Would one be needed on the 2? Only a little section of it isn't covered by the 1, 7 or 10. As for the 4A, the Stagecoach service starts three weeks later, so it'd be odd if the council tendered such a short contract!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Would one be needed on the 2? Only a little section of it isn't covered by the 1, 7 or 10. As for the 4A, the Stagecoach service starts three weeks later, so it'd be odd if the council tendered such a short contract!

I'm guessing that Kendal King was thinking of a commercial replacement rather than a council tender; that's how I read it.

As for the end of First's Sunday services, possibly a reflection not only of a saving of costs for opening the depot. Might also indicate that they've lost more drivers (the ones with negligible service) so it's a further slimming to accommodate that. Sad to see but closure by November, I'd suggest.

On a spotting note, saw one of the Citybuses (38121) working off a schools working the other day.
 

MK Tom

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Do First still hold any school workings? I thought they lost them all to Country Lion...

Actually, the new Stagecoach route doesn't have a Sunday service either. Maybe Meridian might step in the way they have after Arriva cut Olney's Sunday service. Other than that, Council tender seems the only option.

"On a spotting note" I'm going up tomorrow, wonder what the chances of me catching a Citybus are?

BTW I've made a version of the First Northampton network map with just the 2 and 4A on it, and it looks brilliant with 'transforming travel' written at the top. Afraid to put it on here though, copyright and all that.

Curiously the FN website is now not showing any timetables at all, even though yesterday the 2, 4 and 4A were all there.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Would one be needed on the 2? Only a little section of it isn't covered by the 1, 7 or 10. As for the 4A, the Stagecoach service starts three weeks later, so it'd be odd if the council tendered such a short contract!

Was blinded up for 327 or 397 and was travelling along Harlestone Road so assuming it was a school working? Was a driver and not a fitter so probably not on road test and it was about 9am??

Stagecoach might fancy adding a Sunday service but given the state of council finances (and the 10% cuts agreed by Eric Pickles with the treasury), I doubt you'll see a council tender!
 
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MK Tom

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Never trust the destination blinds with First in Northampton. On one day I saw '12 Obelisk Rise', '10 Acre Lane' and '40 Camp Hill'. I think what you saw was an empty working to form a 4A service. Either that or it was leaving town altogether!!

To correct my last post, timetables have disappeared from the entire First site, so not just a Northampton thing.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Never trust the destination blinds with First in Northampton. On one day I saw '12 Obelisk Rise', '10 Acre Lane' and '40 Camp Hill'. I think what you saw was an empty working to form a 4A service. Either that or it was leaving town altogether!!

To correct my last post, timetables have disappeared from the entire First site, so not just a Northampton thing.

No, this was running IN along Harlestone Road in Duston between Hopping Hill and Dallington roundabout. Would guess it was running back to the depot, so might have been a road test, but it was a driver piloting and no fitters on board. The fact the blind was deliberately set to something quite different was what drew my attention. (note: as an aside, Stagecoach have a short Dart S102WHK running with a piece of A4 with the service number, possibly because of a dodgy LED....which is showing Not in Service. Better to just pull the fuse and not show any destination than that??)

Used to regularly see a decker running empty from Dallington via Sixfields to Camp Hill to start the 12 ; however, the only registrations on VOSA are those services that are still extant on the Northampton network (and Luton Airport).

Looking at all the cancelled registrations just shows how much work First lost along the way, and how the senior management managed to cock things up.
 

winston270twm

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http://www.stagecoachbus.com/uploads/northamptonnetworkmapjune13.pdf a new stagecoach map.

In Other First news: Share price is back to a 100p

Yes, it seems to have bottomed & on the way back up. (which is pleasing as I bought in at 99.98p on 11/6/13

Additionally Orbis Investment Management has now increased its stake to over 9%

It seems that they see the current low FGP shareprice as offering value

Extract from Orbis website:

Is Orbis a "value" manager?

Our approach is to identify equities with prices that are well below what we perceive to be the intrinsic value of the company. This results in a value orientation, however we do not limit our selected equities to only those that would be defined as value stocks based on their current financial ratios. This is because we seek companies with attractive growth prospects and our expectations of such growth meaningfully affect our assessment of a company's intrinsic value.
 

overthewater

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I do get the feeling First could get back to 200p in the neat year or so if sorts out UK bus and wins a few of the new rail franchises.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I do get the feeling First could get back to 200p in the neat year or so if sorts out UK bus and wins a few of the new rail franchises.

"6th June 2013, 16:58 #2282
overthewater
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Share price has gone backwards again. FirstGroup PLC 119.10 2.40(1.98%) I cant see the price going up at any point."

Talking about hedging your bets <:D

In truth, it's unlikely that it'll get anywhere near 200p in that time as, everytime the price reaches a pre-determined trigger, some people will sell (profit taking) and the price will fall. That cycle will doubtless continue even if good news comes along so a doubling of the share price in a year is optimistic
 

Deerfold

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I do get the feeling First could get back to 200p in the neat year or so if sorts out UK bus and wins a few of the new rail franchises.

Only 5 of the current rail franchises are due to finish in the next year - these are all due to either be extended or replaced by very short term franchises.
 

MK Tom

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No, this was running IN along Harlestone Road in Duston between Hopping Hill and Dallington roundabout. Would guess it was running back to the depot, so might have been a road test, but it was a driver piloting and no fitters on board. The fact the blind was deliberately set to something quite different was what drew my attention. (note: as an aside, Stagecoach have a short Dart S102WHK running with a piece of A4 with the service number, possibly because of a dodgy LED....which is showing Not in Service. Better to just pull the fuse and not show any destination than that??)

Used to regularly see a decker running empty from Dallington via Sixfields to Camp Hill to start the 12 ; however, the only registrations on VOSA are those services that are still extant on the Northampton network (and Luton Airport).

Looking at all the cancelled registrations just shows how much work First lost along the way, and how the senior management managed to cock things up.

To my knowledge First gave up all the school contracts (they used to have a yellow bus fleet) in August and most went to Country Lion. I muddled up Harlestone Road with the road that goes through Chapel Brampton for a minute there... that is very odd. Private hire maybe?

Is there a way to see all those registrations on VOSA? When I search for 'NORTHAMPTON TRANSPORT LTD' I get some of them but not all by a long shot.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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To my knowledge First gave up all the school contracts (they used to have a yellow bus fleet) in August and most went to Country Lion. I muddled up Harlestone Road with the road that goes through Chapel Brampton for a minute there... that is very odd. Private hire maybe?

Is there a way to see all those registrations on VOSA? When I search for 'NORTHAMPTON TRANSPORT LTD' I get some of them but not all by a long shot.

I remember the yellow buses but they've been gone a while. Don't know what it was doing but 38121 was there as I live and breathe. The curious service number got me and thought it must be schools number?

Go here for all registrations

http://www.tan.gov.uk/tanen/vosa_selfserviceopbusregsearch_new.asp

go down to the bottom and type in the O license number and everything registered and cancelled should appear. Happy hunting :)
 

Ivo

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All these network reviews are annoying. At least they're consulting the public on this one though, which is a rare thing for First to do - they didn't in Hampshire, and look what happened!

I do get the feeling First could get back to 200p in the neat year or so if sorts out UK bus and wins a few of the new rail franchises.

The way things are going, the time to buy may have already passed - and this is turned out to be true, anyone who jumped at the right time would well in...!
 

ivanhoe

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I do get the feeling First could get back to 200p in the neat year or so if sorts out UK bus and wins a few of the new rail franchises.

First will need to do more than win a few contracts.it needs to re-engage with the UK bus scene ,be innovative , bold and probably a bit smaller to succeed. I see none of these traits with First as yet and therefore I doubt whether 200p will ever come.It needs to get out of the USA. I'm amazed that other bus groups haven't challenged their current routes. They could not sustain the type of undercutting which got them to where they are in the first place.Ironic really! If First were a municipal the sharks would be circling.
 

bnm

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Things aren't great over the pond either. There is concern from unions about executive bonuses and also concern over the number of executives who have jumped ship to competitors.

Union rumbles, poor finances, losing key talent. I fear that FirstGroup is soon to be no longer of this world. A takeover/merger could be on the books. There's also a distinct possibility of bankruptcy if the group's financial position doesn't improve. The rights issue may not solve the debt problems, particularly if FirstGroup have to rely on underwriters for a large chunk of that issue. If I had the money I would only be investing for short term gain. I also don't see 200p on the horizon...

From PR Newswire:
FirstGroup Executives See Big Payouts As Company, Workers Suffer, Say Teamsters
Teamster School Bus and Transit Workers Demand Fairness, Accountability

LOS ANGELES, June 21, 2013 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- FirstGroup PLC (FGP: LN) is under fire for awarding hefty bonus payments to top U.S. executives while workers have been denied fair wage increases and improved working conditions.

An approximately $1 billion stock offering was needed to protect FirstGroup's bond rating from possibly being downgraded to junk bond status on May 22. FirstGroup has seen its value plummet to historic lows and has lost billions in shareholder value. A number of executives have recently fled to competitors.
FirstGroup is the United Kingdom-based multinational parent company to First Transit and First Student, the leading school bus transportation company in the United States.

In 2011, the Teamsters Union and First Student signed a national master agreement, covering more than 20,000 workers and improving the company's operations.

"This company should be aggressively winning business based on its improved safety and lowered turnover, which were achieved as a result of the national agreement with the Teamsters. Instead, FirstGroup is using its resources to pad executive pockets by paying out six-figure bonuses, rather than invest in smart business strategies," said Rick Middleton, Teamsters International Vice President and Chair of the national bus campaign. "It is unconscionable that FirstGroup workers would have to suffer, while company executives are shamelessly cashing in."

Tim O'Toole joined the company in June 2010 as Chief Operating Officer, and in November 2011 became the Chief Executive of FirstGroup. Linda Burtwistle became President of First Student in 2008. Under their leadership, the corporation has lost approximately 80 percent of its value.

When O'Toole took the helm at FirstGroup, the stock traded at approximately 400 pence or $6.25, at current exchange rate. When Burtwistle took over at First Student the stock traded at approximately 600 pence or $9.37, at current exchange rate. At close of trade on June 21, 2013, the stock was valued at 98.50 pence, approximately $1.52.

Despite this historic erosion of shareholder value, diminishing bus count and shrinking margins, in May 2013 O'Toole and Burtwistle awarded management bonuses while at the same time their Vice President of Labor Relations, Thomas Secrest, made claims that reasonable and equitable wage increases for FirstGroup's unionized employees could not be granted.

O'Toole attended the recent U.S. Open held outside of Philadelphia at one of several exclusive country clubs he belongs to. Burtwistle recently purchased a six-figure dressage horse.

FirstGroup Chairman Martin Gilbert announced his resignation in May. At his insistence, O'Toole was kept on as CEO.

"With all of the talented executives having departed FirstGroup for its major competitors, it's understandable the corporation finds itself in dire straits, but it is incomprehensible that the current leadership awarded executives bonuses while the hardworking Teamster-represented employees are denied a living wage," Middleton said. "With leadership like this, it's no wonder FirstGroup is closing in on penny stock status."

The International Brotherhood of Teamsters represents 20,000 First Student employees and is the preeminent leader in representing employees in the student transportation industry.

SOURCE Teamsters Local 572
 

34D

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All these network reviews are annoying. At least they're consulting the public on this one though, which is a rare thing for First to do - they didn't in Hampshire, and look what happened!

Most consultations (government etc) tend to have option A B and C to invite comments upon.

Unless I've missed it, there is no proposal to read through, just a short survey.
 

overthewater

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Merger with whom? I can't think of any groups. The only companies who I can think of , in doing a takeover would be those peg who would assets strip first.
 

Ivo

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If every Union in the world had their way we would be faced with an untenable story of alternating between strikes on one day, poor (nationalised) services on the second, and days off on the third - before returning to striking again.

I know they haven't been brilliant over in the States but this is no different to what any other corporation that had grown too much for its own good would do. They should stop trying to imitate Bob Crow and just get on with trying to improve their members' welfare, not complaining at the slightest hint of someone high in the business getting a bonus (of well below banker levels I might add).

And so what if he spent his time off visiting Merion? What does it matter? Just more spin to make O'Toole sound worse than the sinner he apparently is - a sinner who is such a bad person that he was a major figure in returning London to normal after 7/7. Yes - a real sin, that one.

Things are not good, and I would state that as quickly as the next person. But exaggerated sensationalism like this doesn't make things any easier.
 

bnm

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Where's the exaggerated sensationalism? The Teamsters press release is in no way comparable to the regular rantings of Bob Crow. I very much doubt that The Teamsters have even heard of Bob Crow; let alone are trying to imitate him.

And what the heck has 7/7 got to do with anything? Yes Tim O'Toole should be congratulated for his work after 7/7, but then so should the staff who worked on through the chaos. But then 7/7 has absolutely nothing to do with how Tim O'Toole has managed FirstGroup since becoming Chief Exec.

There's no escaping the fact that under his watch FirstGroup's book value has plummeted. Is it all his fault? Probably not, but the buck stops at the top.

Bringing Bob Crow, 7/7 and bankers bonuses into the debate. Now that's exaggerated sensationalism. :roll:

Having looked at how other large corporate entities behave when in financial trouble I see no reason to change my opinion that FirstGroup may well soon be subject to merger/takeover or even bankruptcy. First there's the profit warning. Then there's the sale of some assets. Then there's the suspension of dividend payment. Then there's the rights issue. All classics signs of a company in deep trouble. To follow could well be an enforced fire sale if the rights issue doesn't work. Most of the rights issue is to service debt and if the rights shares aren't sold in full then that is just going to be debt serviced by debt. Which is just delaying the day until FirstGroup's bankers call in the covenants.

Don't bet on a couple of rail franchises/renewals steadying the ship either.

Yes, they could survive relatively intact, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Admirable defence of FirstGroup Ivo. But misguided.
 

winston270twm

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Merger with whom? I can't think of any groups. The only companies who I can think of , in doing a takeover would be those peg who would assets strip first.

NX Group? It's now by a number of senior First Group management, there is little/no overlap between the two in UK Bus, a combination of the two would get NX back in to UK Rail on scale. The main issue with competition authorities would be in the US with the size of the combined school bus businesses.

First Group did approach NX back in 2009 when NX Group were struggling under mountains of debt. It was the First Group approach that kicked started the other takeover attempts of NX Group
 

overthewater

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NX Group? It's now by a number of senior First Group management, there is little/no overlap between the two in UK Bus, a combination of the two would get NX back in to UK Rail on scale. The main issue with competition authorities would be in the US with the size of the combined school bus businesses.

First Group did approach NX back in 2009 when NX Group were struggling under mountains of debt. It was the First Group approach that kicked started the other takeover attempts of NX Group

That does sound likes a possibility, I dont think NX would win back Scotrail, and on the bus section I could see rest of Worcestershire being sold off and Maybe parts of Scotland. After that its clean sailing IF such a thing was to happen.
 

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