First Group: General Discussion

[alexf380]

That said however, even the Plymouth Marshall can't beat the variant our lot came up with...

or this

 

[overthewater]

Share price has gone backwards again. FirstGroup PLC 119.10 2.40(1.98%) I cant see the price going up at any point.

 

[tbtc]

Sorry to say this but I disagree with you there. It actually looks pretty damn good on Pointer Darts - almost although it was designed for them. It looks iffy on Geminis, especially at the back

I knew you'd learn to love the SPDs eventually

Seriously though, the rear of a Gemini shows how the "zig zags" seem to have been designed as extensions of the Wright "W" logo - look at this picture - http://www.flickr.com/photos/92328344@N00/6956106830/in/photolist-bAFSdo - the triangle in the middle of the "W" seems to be the focus for the whole of the rear of the vehicle.

 

[Ivo]

I knew you'd learn to love the SPDs eventually

Umm sure

They still haven't been repainted, although to be fair Hengrove are the only local depot to have actually undertaken a proper repaint programme - and as I found out earlier (having not sampled them for a while), they are as bad as ever. At least they are mostly consigned to one route now, so they're easier to avoid.

or this

That's hideous! hock:

 

[rjhowie]

Here in Glasgow we have had a damnable city-wide confusion thanks to Firstbus. On 2th May they completely changed dozens of bus route numbers to something else as well as alter routes. Some in fairness would be speeded up but the change in routes completely different numbering and so on only frustrated people. Lots of folk who don't access the internet or read a paper for some passing local item had no idea what was happening. For some people I now their getting to and from work has been hampered. Being by far the largest operator in Greater Glasgow it in return has greater impact. Not far from where I reside is a Retail park with everything from Sainsbury's to B & Q. There used to be 2 FirstBus routes through it and eventually went into the city centre. Now there are no services from FirstBus and only the small company Glasgow City Bus a service and that is only local and nowhere distant at all. So unless a car driver, forget it. The other day I seen a small group of people waiting at the bus shelter there and looked a bit concerned so I told them First no ,longer ran any nus through the Retail area and they were stunned. I then pointed them to the maion road 6 or 7 minutes walk away.

First were okay when they got the ScotRail franchise and there was a difference from the previous owner but in buses quite something else. The route that passes me has of course had a number and streets change and does go onto a motorway once past some local suburbs but if I am going local I tend to use a wee bus company that runs their buses a heck of a lot faster than FirstBus which lumbers in a world of it's own. If I see Avondal and FirstBus coming I will got for the wee one. Like many of my neighbours, I feel that First only goes fast when you see the destination screen saying "Not in Service" and the drive heading for the garage and shift end. Just a pity the old salt mines are no longer available for despatching people to.

 

[Rich McLean]

According to someone down at F D+C, talks have kicked off again about the sale of First Plymouth Depot (The Ride) and the whole of the Cornwall operation to Stagecoach. Will keep you posted as soon as I have more news

 

[Ivo]

Whilst this is sensible, I can't believe this is going to happen any time soon. D & C were reorganised just last week and to then have an immediate sale seems a bit shortsighted. That said however, in an unrelated meeting on Saturday I did suggest to those present (none of whom are on this forum to my knowledge) that everything south-west of Bristol - even Weston potentially* - is at risk to some degree or another, so who knows? I shall try to find out on Wednesday.

Then again, this is First so anything could happen. (Except buying Western Greyhound or Plymouth CityBus, because the OFT would not be happy.)

* For those of you not familiar with Weston-super-Mare, which is probably most of you who don't frequent the SW thread, it effectively has two cash cow routes - one of which (the 7) is itself a liability at times - and a few stragglers. Bristol could take on the town's big hitter, the X1, and everything else could in theory be done away with if things became a serious issue; as it is, two of the five town routes are being withdrawn next month...

 

[overthewater]

The same rumors about First Edinburgh have appeared but it doesn't make since what keeps appearing.

Cornwall? You would have thought Go-Ahead might be interested.

First share now seem to be steady around 120-125p, while nothing was appeared in the press about first.

 

[winston270twm]

The same rumors about First Edinburgh have appeared but it doesn't make since what keeps appearing.

Cornwall? You would have thought Go-Ahead might be interested.

First share now seem to be steady around 120-125p, while nothing was appeared in the press about first.

Who is been suggested for First Edinburgh this time round?

Go-Ahead would not doubt be interested in Plymouth, but doubt the sale would be allowed due to it creating a monopoly. Cornwall isn't really good bus territory since all the spending cuts, I think even Western Greyhound is finding it harder down there.....

 

[MK Tom]

For those unaware, First Northampton as of yesterday is now down to a whapping three services. Or actually two if you count the 4 and 4A as the same one. Their website proudly proclaims "We have a number of service maps to help you on your way!" - that number is two. One for the 2, and one for the 4/4A. They didn't bother to knock up a 'network map' but the maps page of their site still shows a bit of it with the discontinued 29/30 visible. See http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/northampton/journey_planning/maps/ - also check out the 'timetable' section. This is truly an operation in the final stages of collapse.

Oh and try following those map links!

 

[bb21]

Their website proudly proclaims "We have a number of service maps to help you on your way!" - that number is two.

...

Oh and try following those map links!

Yes, I think the number is two is a rather generous statement.

I wonder what the Sunday PVR is. I gather six - does the 4A require two vehicles?

 

[Ivo]

Yes, I think the number is two is a rather generous statement.

I wonder what the Sunday PVR is. I gather six - does the 4A require two vehicles?

At least you guys actually have a Sunday PVR! Two of the depots around here are closed completely on Sundays - even though one of them runs what is arguably the most important trans-Somerset route in existence! (Said route is transferred elsewhere on Sundays, so it's not as though it doesn't run.)

 

[mbonwick]

First share now seem to be steady around 120-125p, while nothing was appeared in the press about first.

That was before the rights issue - now that the shares have been taken up, they're trading around 103p for the moment.

 

[MK Tom]

Yes, I think the number is two is a rather generous statement.

I wonder what the Sunday PVR is. I gather six - does the 4A require two vehicles?

I can't be sure about Sundays. I know that the weekday peak hour requirement across the 2/4/4A is now 23 vehicles. Which is now the entire fleet. In a 90 vehicle depot.

Two ultralows have apparently been withdrawn and sent for scrap. No news yet on the Citybuses, Lances or Geminis.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

At least you guys actually have a Sunday PVR! Two of the depots around here are closed completely on Sundays - even though one of them runs what is arguably the most important trans-Somerset route in existence! (Said route is transferred elsewhere on Sundays, so it's not as though it doesn't run.)

What route would that be? The 376 is probably the most important trans Somerset route, and its Sunday service is operated by Wells as per the rest of the week
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't be sure about Sundays. I know that the weekday peak hour requirement across the 2/4/4A is now 23 vehicles. Which is now the entire fleet. In a 90 vehicle depot.

Two ultralows have apparently been withdrawn and sent for scrap. No news yet on the Citybuses, Lances or Geminis.

St James depot had 4 of the 5 deckers in it at lunchtime - only the rebodied Citybus wasn't visible. Both Lances are parked up in the dead pool in the rear yard (NFS) and a couple or 3 Ultralows

 

[overthewater]

Who is been suggested for First Edinburgh this time round?

I think all the rumors are in connection to this:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/busin...rman-faces-up-to-firstgroup-mistakes.21309671

OUTGOING FirstGroup chairman Martin Gilbert admitted mistakes had been made during the bus and rail group's foray into the North American market but declared the Aberdeen-based company was in "fantastic shape" after 96.5% of investors backed a £615 million cash call. After a meeting lasting just 20 minutes, a three-for-two share issue designed to relieve the weight of the company's debt was passed. Just 3.5% of shareholders who cast a ballot opposed the move.

Including those who withheld their vote, 7.8% of investors failed to back the arrangement. Mr Gilbert, who has been chairman of FirstGroup for 27 years, said afterwards: "I think the shareholders accepted the rationale for the rights issue as being in the best interests of the company." The board "spent months" considering its options, he said, before settling on the fully underwritten cash call, which will generate a net £585m for the company to pay down its borrowings and invest in its operations.

FirstGroup, which has sold a number of bus operations south of the Border, had considered further sales to pay down debt but decided this would be counter-productive at what it considers to be a time of poor valuations for transport assets. FirstGroup is weighed down with £2 billion of borrowings, having acquired American group Laidlaw, owner of Greyhound coaches, for £1.7bn in 2007.

It was part-funded with a £200m share issue but the bulk of the financing came from debt. Mr Gilbert said: "I think with the benefit of hindsight the Laidlaw acquisition was not funded correctly and this is putting that right now. We did not raise enough equity at the time." Mr Gilbert, who is the founder and chief executive of funds house Aberdeen Asset Management, has chaired FirstGroup since it emerged from council-owned Grampian Regional Transport.

He announced his intention to retire from the board when FirstGroup announced its rights issue plans last month. He said: "I was going to go a year ago and agreed to stay on to get the balance sheet in the right state." He added: "This sets the company on the right path."

A meeting room booked by FirstGroup in London's Holborn Bars, the gothic Victorian building that once served as Prudential's headquarters, was packed with 80 investors and company advisers. The mood was one of quiet acceptance of the company's proposal to issue 722.8 million shares at 85p each, which is designed to ensure it retains its investment grade credit status.

Mr Gilbert and chief executive Tim O'Toole were quizzed by private investors over whether the company was seeking enough funds to repair its balance sheet and whether it was seeking further business sales.

On asset sales, Mr O'Toole said: "We looked very seriously at that."

The former London Underground chief added: "It doesn't solve the debt issue because you are giving up quality earnings so your gearing on the turnaround gets worse and worse." Problems at FirstGroup, which runs ScotRail and bus services in Aberdeen, Glasgow and the Lothians, came to a head after it was awarded, and then stripped of the West Coast Main Line rail franchise, after the Government discovered flaws in the bid procedures.

Mr O'Toole told the meeting that he still believes FirstGroup's bid was the "lower risk option" compared to incumbent Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Rail, which was given a contract extension. One investor wanted to know how much the dividend was likely to be when it restarts next year. It would be around 4p per share, he was told. FirstGroup shares closed down 0.9p, or 0.73%, at 122.8p.

If you sell off the last two remaining non function operations in the company to just leave profitable areas, it would make since instead of wasting more money which there don't have spare to fill in the blackholes. Does anyone believe an actually plans is in place to sort them out?

This would also mean York and Leicester are not out of the woods yet if that is the case, as both could be cleared out without much fuss.


The above has NOT Helped: http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Tearsheets/Summary?s=FGP:LSE

99.95p current price. it crashed again this morning down to 102 when back up to 108 then come back down to were we are now after 722m new shares from its rights issue were admitted to the London exchange.

 

[Volvodart]

99.95p current price. it crashed again this morning down to 102 when back up to 108 then come back down to were we are now after 722m new shares from its rights issue were admitted to the London exchange.

The share price was expected to fall substantially today!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think all the rumors are in connection to this:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/busin...rman-faces-up-to-firstgroup-mistakes.21309671



If you sell off the last two remaining non function operations in the company to just leave profitable areas, it would make since instead of wasting more money which there don't have spare to fill in the blackholes. Does anyone believe an actually plans is in place to sort them out?

This would also mean York and Leicester are not out of the woods yet if that is the case, as both could be cleared out without much fuss.


The above has NOT Helped: http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Tearsheets/Summary?s=FGP:LSE

99.95p current price. it crashed again this morning down to 102 when back up to 108 then come back down to were we are now after 722m new shares from its rights issue were admitted to the London exchange.

The way I've read that is that TOT was asked if they were going to sell anything else. He said that they had looked at that seriously but that it was counter productive (losing good cashflow and increasing gearing).

I don't quite see why the clamour about Leicester or York going? York isn't as isolated as the Hereford & Worcester ops, for instance, and has fewer issues regarding the age of the fleet etc.

 

[overthewater]

The way I've read that is that TOT was asked if they were going to sell anything else. He said that they had looked at that seriously but that it was counter productive (losing good cashflow and increasing gearing).

There cant let the cat out of the bag if there might sell one more thing off, but it does not make blind bit of difference to nether Cornwall or First Edinburgh, since both don't have good cashflow, Heck its the opposite with good cash flow being poured in to clear the debts.

I don't quite see why the clamour about Leicester or York going? York isn't as isolated as the Hereford & Worcester ops, for instance, and has fewer issues regarding the age of the fleet etc.

I dont know, Worcester could also come into that bracket as you say, IF that was the case, IF something was to be used to help raise more cash.

I've heard from other people York and Leicester could be good ideas, mainly because there out of the way and could be sold of easier than certain other places, while the main core areas kept. This could all go back to % etc for profits/ turnover etc.

 

[MK Tom]

St James depot had 4 of the 5 deckers in it at lunchtime - only the rebodied Citybus wasn't visible. Both Lances are parked up in the dead pool in the rear yard (NFS) and a couple or 3 Ultralows

Both Citybuses and both Geminis? The Ultralows you mention may be from other depots, like the Spytes that keep arriving from wherever it is, Southampton or Ipswich or some such.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Both Citybuses and both Geminis? The Ultralows you mention may be from other depots, like the Spytes that keep arriving from wherever it is, Southampton or Ipswich or some such.

Some of the Ultralows were ex FEC sent there for disposal/component recovery but there were definitely some of the Northampton ones as well. And yes, both 38098 and 38121 were there plus the two Geminis.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There cant let the cat out of the bag if there might sell one more thing off, but it does not make blind bit of difference to nether Cornwall or First Edinburgh, since both don't have good cashflow, Heck its the opposite with good cash flow being poured in to clear the debts.




I dont know, Worcester could also come into that bracket as you say, IF that was the case, IF something was to be used to help raise more cash.

I've heard from other people York and Leicester could be good ideas, mainly because there out of the way and could be sold of easier than certain other places, while the main core areas kept. This could all go back to % etc for profits/ turnover etc.

This is the problem. If I had a fiver for every operation that I've heard could be going or will be going, I could've paid off First's debt singlehandedly. Lanarkshire, Berkshire, Leicester, York, Devon and Cornwall, Somerset, Doncaster, further parts of Manchester, Stirling and Livingston, Musselburgh are all parts that have been rumoured.

As I said, York is no more isolated than First Wyvern (and is profitable and ripe for development). Also, who would buy? Transdev can't and Arriva have shown no inclination to buy anyone or anything.

As for "letting the cat out of the bag".... remember that this was a meeting of investors. TOT has said that they considered further asset disposals but that they discounted that. That's hardly "dead batting" that question away but a fairly straight answer. Also, First D&C & Somerset have got Alex Carter to turn the operation around, and he's a very good bus manager. Rather than try to sell and take a chunky asset write-off, might be a view to try and develop the operations (even if that means having to withdraw some services, as with the Bridgwater changes)

 

[markie73]

For those unaware, First Northampton as of yesterday is now down to a whapping three services. Or actually two if you count the 4 and 4A as the same one. Their website proudly proclaims "We have a number of service maps to help you on your way!" - that number is two. One for the 2, and one for the 4/4A. They didn't bother to knock up a 'network map' but the maps page of their site still shows a bit of it with the discontinued 29/30 visible. See http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/northampton/journey_planning/maps/ - also check out the 'timetable' section. This is truly an operation in the final stages of collapse.

Oh and try following those map links!

What do you expect?!!?, either they have forgotten to update the website or its a case of nobody cares! - I suspect its the later though!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't be sure about Sundays. I know that the weekday peak hour requirement across the 2/4/4A is now 23 vehicles. Which is now the entire fleet. In a 90 vehicle depot.

Two ultralows have apparently been withdrawn and sent for scrap. No news yet on the Citybuses, Lances or Geminis.

I thought that the fleet was going to consist of only 16 vehicles? but as always you can never guess what is going to happen!.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Both Citybuses and both Geminis? The Ultralows you mention may be from other depots, like the Spytes that keep arriving from wherever it is, Southampton or Ipswich or some such.

I think that some of the Northampton ultralows have been withdrawn, but I will be VERY surprised if the two Lances have been withdrawn as they are nice buses to travel on and given their age they are in excellent condition.

Hopefully the three Citybuses will remain untill the end (whenever that will be) as they are the remains of the NT fleet from the early 90's.

 

[overthewater]

This is the problem. If I had a fiver for every operation that I've heard could be going or will be going, I could've paid off First's debt singlehandedly. Lanarkshire, Berkshire, Leicester, York, Devon and Cornwall, Somerset, Doncaster, further parts of Manchester, Stirling and Livingston, Musselburgh are all parts that have been rumoured.

Just to point out, Lanarkshire has been scaled back, with Cumbernauld depot shut, most of the profitable operations moved to other Glasgow depots with s cut backs to routes in Cumbernauld. I don't think a buyer was forthcoming like in Northampton.

But no one cant say none of them were up for sale, for all we know some of them could not find buyers. Your also correct that some of the places listed went over the top like Manchester, Yorkshire and Berkshire. We did discuss some aspect of those areas to get a better picture etc.

As I said, York is no more isolated than First Wyvern (and is profitable and ripe for development). Also, who would buy? Transdev can't and Arriva have shown no inclination to buy anyone or anything.

Go Ahead? EYMS? Stagecoach. That could be opening a can of worms.

As for "letting the cat out of the bag".... remember that this was a meeting of investors. TOT has said that they considered further asset disposals but that they discounted that. That's hardly "dead batting" that question away but a fairly straight answer. Also, First D&C & Somerset have got Alex Carter to turn the operation around, and he's a very good bus manager. Rather than try to sell and take a chunky asset write-off, might be a view to try and develop the operations (even if that means having to withdraw some services, as with the Bridgwater changes)

That hardly helpful, managed decline.

 

[Volvodart]

That hardly helpful, managed decline.

Why would they appoint new managing directors and restructure the business just to close it down?

 

[tbtc]

I've suggested York for Stagecoach before. I stick to that. Prime Stagecoach territory (given how well they run Oxford and Cambridge - two similar cities with large P&Rs) but far enough away from Middlesbrough/ Barnsley/ Hull to avoid competition problems.

 

[overthewater]

Why would they appoint new managing directors and restructure the business just to close it down?

I see it from the other, First splits up the operations, it makes sure one area does not drag the other three down. It isolates the area and cut backs could be done to drag the area out of the Red and back into the black.

IF it does not work will, since its cut off and should not cause to much trouble.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think that some of the Northampton ultralows have been withdrawn, but I will be VERY surprised if the two Lances have been withdrawn as they are nice buses to travel on and given their age they are in excellent condition.

Hopefully the three Citybuses will remain untill the end (whenever that will be) as they are the remains of the NT fleet from the early 90's.

Prepare to be VERY surprised. 67252 is tucked away behind other withdrawn kit with defect notice attached to the windscreen so deffo NFS.

Very interesting the view that they're nice to travel on; when they were first entering service with Midland Red West (and similar with Badgerline), they weren't well regarded as good machines in comparison to Lynxes
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I see it from the other, First splits up the operations, it makes sure one area does not drag the other three down. It isolates the area and cut backs could be done to drag the area out of the Red and back into the black.

IF it does not work will, since its cut off and should not cause to much trouble.

I think the appointment of Alex Carter is a good indication that they're focussing on trying to turn the business around. Even getting it (and others) to a small profit is perhaps preferable to a substantial asset write off by closing it down.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've suggested York for Stagecoach before. I stick to that. Prime Stagecoach territory (given how well they run Oxford and Cambridge - two similar cities with large P&Rs) but far enough away from Middlesbrough/ Barnsley/ Hull to avoid competition problems.

If only it were that simple. Working on that basis, then Stagecoach wouldn't have bought Wigan but would've bought Worcester. Still would be a good purchase but that's the sort of speculation I can't be doing with starting

The likelier purchasers would be Arriva (shown no ambition to buy anything) or Transdev (can't buy)

 

[Bevan Price]

Are there any towns or cities where bus services have improved since the Thatcher-inspired pressurisation of most municipal operators to sell their fleets to private operators ??

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've suggested York for Stagecoach before. I stick to that. Prime Stagecoach territory (given how well they run Oxford and Cambridge - two similar cities with large P&Rs) but far enough away from Middlesbrough/ Barnsley/ Hull to avoid competition problems.

If only it were that simple. Working on that basis, then Stagecoach wouldn't have bought Wigan but would've bought Worcester. Still would be a good purchase but that's the sort of speculation I can't be doing with starting

The likelier purchasers would be Arriva (shown no ambition to buy anything) or Transdev (can't buy)

 

[ivanhoe]

Are there any towns or cities where bus services have improved since the Thatcher-inspired pressurisation of most municipal operators to sell their fleets to private operators ??

I'd say Loughborough has better bus links since deregulation. Whether bus fares may have been less, I very much doubt it. There are parts of Loughborough that never had any services pre deregulation. Operators like Kinch have improved services and Arriva have improved upon the Midland Fox empire.Leicester has probably deteriorated whereas Nottingham has improved. More people have cars now so it is difficult to compare.