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First Group: General Discussion

overthewater

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Remember Go ahead and Nat express, who could sneak in, talk was both did look at parts of First Edinburgh.

If the share issues can not go ahead how will first reduce its debt and afford new investment? Single sell off anit going to help is it?
 
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winston270twm

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But isn't its price 140p?

140p was the theoretical price at which First Group is thought to be valued at after the rights issue had taken place & the total number of shares in issue had increased substantially. Although the share price is currently below that figure, it is still worth existing shareholder buying up the rights shares at 85p, based on the current price of 125p per share you could make 40p on the rights shares, the lower the share price goes the smaller the discount gets on the rights shares. For the first couple of days after the rights issues the share price may be quite volatile due to the number of extra shares being added to the market & a sharp increase in the volume of shares changing hands.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Remember Go ahead and Nat express, who could sneak in, talk was both did look at parts of First Edinburgh.

I'd like to see NX pick some of First's bus interests up, but just can't see it happening. NX were meant to be in the frame for Kiddiminster, Redditch & Wigan up until the WCML contract termination was announced, and then all went quiet. NX were also rumoured to be looking at Livingston & possibly Larbert, Larbert possibly, but why Livingston? Unless they were looking to dip a toe in Edinburgh

I would have thought we would have seen NX's hand by now if they were seriously interested in buying any of the more lucrative bits, and Dean Finch should know which bits have the most turnaround potential
 

overthewater

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85p!!! You would think 100p would have been better. No wonder the share price fell off a clip.if you could by new shares at 1/3 there value.
 

winston270twm

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85p!!! You would think 100p would have been better. No wonder the share price fell off a clip.if you could by new shares at 1/3 there value.

Only existing shareholders are being tapped up for more money, the size of the discount indicates First are pretty desperate for the cash....
 

winston270twm

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TheGrandWazoo

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Little confused as to why a Private Equity Group would come in. In some way, the problem (debt) is also the reason why many incl. vulture capitalists won't come in.

As for the actual assets, wonder how much is actually there in terms of realisable benefit? Some property, but the vehicle assets book value (against what they might be able to realise on a sale and leaseback) might be a tad iffy. That is, there isn't that much to hollow out, and PEs usually look to make their money back in 2 years or so. That isn't to say that someone might not have a sniff but ironically, the debt represents both a problem and a defence!
 

overthewater

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Anyone seen this? http://www.myfirstbus.co.uk/

I take it some of the people in the market dont thing much of First


Little confused as to why a Private Equity Group would come in. In some way, the problem (debt) is also the reason why many incl. vulture capitalists won't come in.

As for the actual assets, wonder how much is actually there in terms of realisable benefit? Some property, but the vehicle assets book value (against what they might be able to realise on a sale and leaseback) might be a tad iffy. That is, there isn't that much to hollow out, and PEs usually look to make their money back in 2 years or so. That isn't to say that someone might not have a sniff but ironically, the debt represents both a problem and a defence!

I believe the Assets of First out way the amount of debt the company has. SO if PEG could acquire first on the cheap and sell off the assets for a decent price which would possible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6345627.stm the price it was brought is equal to the amount of Debt first has.

Below is what is in the portfolio, and I would bet that selling of everything would pay of the debt, cost of the takeover and a nice return.


United Kingdom Bus
First Aberdeen
First Berkshire & The Thames Valley
First Bristol
First Cymru
First Devon & Cornwall
First Eastern Counties
Ipswich Rapid Transit
First Edinburgh
First Essex
First Glasgow
First Greater Manchester
First Pennine (part of First Greater Manchester)
First Hampshire & Dorset
First Leeds
First Leicester
First London
First Midland Red Buses Limited (sometimes referred to as First Wyvern)
First Potteries (operating in Staffordshire and South Cheshire, formerly First PMT/PMT Ltd)
First South Yorkshire
First West Yorkshire
First Bradford (part of First West Yorkshire)
First Calderdale & Huddersfield (part of First West Yorkshire)
First Leeds (part of First West Yorkshire)
First York

First Rail Support provide emergency and planned rail replacement transport to train operating companies using First and non First Transport through its 24 hour control room in Simonstone, Lancashire..
Greyhound UK coach services between Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Bristol and Bristol Airport

Ireland
Aircoach
First Northern Ireland

Canada
First Student (school, charter bus and public transit services)
Greyhound Canada (intercity bus services)
Grey Goose Bus Lines
Vancouver Island Coach Lines
Voyageur Colonial Bus Lines

United States
First Transit (bus and rapid transit)
First Student (school bus services)
Greyhound (intercity bus services)
BoltBus (a discount operator competing with Megabus, 50% joint venture with Peter Pan Bus Lines)
Rail services

United Kingdom Trains
First Great Western Class 43 and First GBRf Class 66 at Taunton
First Capital Connect
First Great Western
First Hull Trains (80% shareholding)
First TransPennine Express joint venture with Keolis (55% shareholding)
Heathrow Connect joint venture with BAA Limited
ScotRail
Croydon Tramlink

Denmark & Sweden
DSBFirst joint venture with Danish State Railways (30% shareholding)
 

WatcherZero

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A vulture capital firm will tend to look past the trading figures and actually look at its assets; the value of its contracts, how many depots does it own, how valuable is the land, how many buses does it own and what are their conditions, how much investment is needed to make it competitive again, whats its resaleable value, etc...

Its all very well saying they have X revenue, but if they found that half their fleet needed replacing within a couple of years then the investment required may outweigh the benefits. Remember they like to be able to turn around and resell the business in 2-5 years and if it needs significant capital investment they would be unable to recoup that in such a short timescale.
 

34D

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A vulture capital firm

I have worked with Private Equity and Venture Capitalists and find your continued use of the term 'vulture' both offensive and incorrect.

Please use the correct words going forward, or don't post at all please.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I have worked with Private Equity and Venture Capitalists and find your continued use of the term 'vulture' both offensive and incorrect.

Please use the correct words going forward, or don't post at all please.

Fair enough, you have your point. However, with organisations such as OpCapita (and their stewardship of Comet), you might appreciate that not PE businesses are not always viewed positively


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone seen this? http://www.myfirstbus.co.uk/

I take it some of the people in the market dont thing much of First

I believe the Assets of First out way the amount of debt the company has. SO if PEG could acquire first on the cheap and sell off the assets for a decent price which would possible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6345627.stm the price it was brought is equal to the amount of Debt first has.

As was said by Watcherzero, what the assets are on the books may be a long way from what their realisable value actually is. After all, what is First Somerset on the books for against its actual worth? Therefore, when you try to divest as a PE would look to do, then you're actually a bit screwed!
 
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WatcherZero

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I have worked with Private Equity and Venture Capitalists and find your continued use of the term 'vulture' both offensive and incorrect.

Please use the correct words going forward, or don't post at all please.

I wasnt the one that suggested the behaviour however Venture capital is incorrect in the sense your using it as First is not a startup or high growth business looking for funds to support growth. A vulture capatalist at least has the expectation that the company can be turned into going concern, Private Equity covers a multitude of sins but asset stripping isnt one normally associated with the practise as the investors in privae equity are normally looking for long term return not short term.

Definition of 'Vulture Capitalist'
1. A slang word for a venture capitalist who deprives an inventor of control over his or her own innovations and most of the money the inventor should have made from the invention.

2. A venture capitalist who invests in floundering firms in the hopes that the firms will turn around.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/vulturecapitalist.asp
 
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Volvodart

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It is included in the rights issue prospectus (as is Leicester Citybus Limited not being 100% owned).
 

Sandy Drew

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I didn't realise that 6.5% of Leicester Citybus Ltd is held by Trent Motor Traction Ltd - not sure when that happened, unless i'm the only person on here not to know! Doh
 

overthewater

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I didn't realise that 6.5% of Leicester Citybus Ltd is held by Trent Motor Traction Ltd - not sure when that happened, unless i'm the only person on here not to know! Doh

I have no idea either about that, whats the story behide that? Does that mean Trentbarton has first go at buying the company?
 

34D

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I have no idea either about that, whats the story behide that? Does that mean Trentbarton has first go at buying the company?

It means that they already own 6.5% of those operations (I am taking the comment earlier as correct, and not looking into it).

However, we haven't really mentioned Trent as being acquisitive. Leicester would fit with their operating territory.
 

tbtc

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Leicester could join Wellglade, as they own Trent Barton and Kinchbus in the east Midlands (and TM Travel a bit further north)

I don't think Wellglade would take on something the size of First Leicester

Leicester only operates approx 100 vehicles, the majority of which are W reg, 51 reg or 02 reg. Wasn't TM Travel a similar size when Wellglade acquired that?

It means that they already own 6.5% of those operations (I am taking the comment earlier as correct, and not looking into it).

However, we haven't really mentioned Trent as being acquisitive. Leicester would fit with their operating territory.

Trent/ Leicester was discussed a while ago, but I don't think that anyone appreciated that they owned part of the operation already at the time.
 

winston270twm

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Does anyone know how and why Trent ended up with 6%?

Could that have dated back to pre GRT Holdings buying Leicester Citybus, I can't image First selling a small stake like that and it's not really a stake of any significance that Trent would be involved in any decision making etc

First Group share price is on the slide again closing at 120.4p (£580 Million market cap)
 
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mbonwick

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Trent's share appears to date right back to when Leicester Citybus Ltd was established in 1985/6; 6% of the shares went to Trent with the rest being owned by the City Council.

It was the council's majority state that was sold to GRT which then ultimately became First.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Suspect it is a hangover from the late 1980s when Leicester Citybus set up an operation called Loughborough Bus and Coach with some Optare City Pacers. Trent always had a small depot in Loughborough but then sold the operations to Leicester with the depot getting demolished; think part of the deal was cash and part a shareholding in LCB Ltd.

I think the ops were eventually swapped in a peace deal with Midland Fox. Ironically, Kinch then came in and competed and then built up the operation that Wellglade then acquired.
 

MCW

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a leicester decker has the new livery as well now, sorry ifi'm late with the info but been out the loop on this stuff as nothing really happened with Leicester....
 

BuhSnarf

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a leicester decker has the new livery as well now, sorry ifi'm late with the info but been out the loop on this stuff as nothing really happened with Leicester....

Yes, I've only seen 1 Decker so far - will be interesting to see how it looks on the single decks as I think it looks worse in real life on the the double decker. Too much white!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 

bb21

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That would be 32066 I imagine.

Saw it the other day on the 54. Can't say I am too impressed. Not a good livery on the ALX400s.
 

tbtc

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That would be 32066 I imagine.

Saw it the other day on the 54. Can't say I am too impressed. Not a good livery on the ALX400s.

The new First livery only seems to suit Wright vehicles, especially Geminis.

That's fair enough if they want something that looks good on modern vehicles, but they should have kept other older buses in the "Barbie" livery (which would have kept the new livery looking modern).

As it is, we (in South Yorkshire) have some Geminis in the old livery still and R-reg B10BLEs in the new livery.
 

MK Tom

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BTW for anyone interested, this coming Saturday is the last day of First Northampton routes 12/28/29/30 (Friday being the last of the 23). I'll be doing a bit of a grand tour of the 'network' on Saturday. Be interesting to go out with First and back with Stagey on each of the routes!
 

Ivo

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The new First livery only seems to suit Wright vehicles, especially Geminis.

That's fair enough if they want something that looks good on modern vehicles, but they should have kept other older buses in the "Barbie" livery (which would have kept the new livery looking modern).

As it is, we (in South Yorkshire) have some Geminis in the old livery still and R-reg B10BLEs in the new livery.

Sorry to say this but I disagree with you there. It actually looks pretty damn good on Pointer Darts - almost although it was designed for them. It looks iffy on Geminis, especially at the back, and not too good on most other things either.

Good: Pointer Dart
Bad: Dual-Door Marshall Dart

That said however, even the Plymouth Marshall can't beat the variant our lot came up with...
 

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