First Group: General Discussion

[MK Tom]

Gemini have been sent away have there not?

That's what I'd like to know. An ALX400 came in then went again back in January.

Anyway it's the three Citybuses and four Lances I'm really interested in. Plus I'd like to know how likely I am to have those in service on a Saturday.

Finish Point Sunnyside

You gotta be kidding...

I suppose this could just be morning/evening/sunday services opposite the First service. Either that or first are giving up on the 4 which suffers competition from Uno and ONLY keeping the 2 and 4A.

Curious to see how the 3 will work as a right angled cross-town route. It's not even right angled, it's acute really. Unless of course this registration is for a totally different route that just also ends at Sunnyside.

 

[markie73]

That's what I'd like to know. An ALX400 came in then went again back in January.

Anyway it's the three Citybuses and four Lances I'm really interested in. Plus I'd like to know how likely I am to have those in service on a Saturday.



You gotta be kidding...

I suppose this could just be morning/evening/sunday services opposite the First service. Either that or first are giving up on the 4 which suffers competition from Uno and ONLY keeping the 2 and 4A.

Curious to see how the 3 will work as a right angled cross-town route. It's not even right angled, it's acute really. Unless of course this registration is for a totally different route that just also ends at Sunnyside.

I think it will be down to your luck what is operating on Saturdays, on the service 4 its normal to have both Gemini's and occasionaly a Citybus but having seid that I have only spotted 32630 on this route over the past couple of weekends and have not seen 32629 for a while now.

It would not surprise me that First have de-registered the 4 hence Stagecoach re-registering the service, I can't see the point in a competing service on same route as it looks as if we may well be saying goodbye to First shortly.

Maybe we will see a 3A registered by Stagecoach IF First intend to de-register the 4A?

 

[overthewater]

I think your jumping the gun.

 

[markie73]

I think your jumping the gun.

As in what respect?, First de-registering the 4 and Stagecoach introducing the 3 to replace it? or Stagecoach registering a new service to replace the 4A if First decide to de-register?

Or is the Stagecoach 3 being introduced to compete with First and their service 4 even though there is a no-competition agreement between First and Stagecoach on the Kingsthorpe routes?.

 

[MK Tom]

We should probably leave speculation about the 4A until Stagecoach do or don't register something on that corridor.

What about other routes? I don't really mind what routes I do, I'd just like to catch those two types (citybus and lance).

 

[markie73]

We should probably leave speculation about the 4A until Stagecoach do or don't register something on that corridor.

What about other routes? I don't really mind what routes I do, I'd just like to catch those two types (citybus and lance).

It might be a good idea to try and contact the depot and find out OR leave it until the day and ask one of the First drivers.

I'm interested to see if the Stagecoach 3 will be a competing service against First or a completely new service to replace First's service 4.

 

[Deerfold]

Well I thought that first was going to retain the service 4 as part of their skeleton service in the town?, it looks like the operation is all but confirmed as finished.

There's nothing to stop Stagecoach registering a competing service - especially if First look to be on the way out they may fancy trying to give them a final push. Could be cheaper then trying to buy them out and avoid the sale being referred to the competition authorities.
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Or is the Stagecoach 3 being introduced to compete with First and their service 4 even though there is a no-competition agreement between First and Stagecoach on the Kingsthorpe routes?.

Have we seen any proof of a non-competition agreement? Or do the companies just tend not to compete?

 

[overthewater]

Have we seen any proof of a non-competition agreement? Or do the companies just tend not to compete?

This is all goes back to the Northampton bus war a few years ago, Where Stagecoach started K9 and U4.

I have to ask What routes did Northampton operate which competed with Stagey?

 

[markie73]

This is all goes back to the Northampton bus war a few years ago, Where Stagecoach started K9 and U4.

I have to ask What routes did Northampton operate which competed with Stagey?

Stagecoach operated the 4U in direct competition with First Northampton service 4 which serves Kingsthorpe and Stagecoach also operated the K9 again in competition with First Northampton service 29/30 which serves Kings Heath.

Needless to say neither of these routes that Stagecoach operated lasted very long up against First but I guess it will be a different ball game now if Stagecoach are starting another competitive service against First Northampton given their situation, time will tell.

 

[overthewater]

What are the chances of London sell off tomorrow or Thursday?

 

[markie73]

What are the chances of London sell off tomorrow or Thursday?

Has it been confirmed by First that they are putting their family jewels up for sale? that would bring in some serious money and would more then likely exceed the amount they need to raise.

 

[overthewater]

Has it been confirmed by First that they are putting their family jewels up for sale? that would bring in some serious money and would more then likely exceed the amount they need to raise.

I doubt it will bring in the full amount, since stagecoach remember paid only £56m? I think first could get close but not reach the £100m

 

[winston270twm]

What are the chances of London sell off tomorrow or Thursday?

Even if a any deals are announced in the closing days up to First Group's year end they have got no chance of been concluded/included in this years accounts now
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I doubt it will bring in the full amount, since stagecoach remember paid only £56m? I think first could get close but not reach the £100m

But wasn't the East London bus group loss making when Stagecoach bought the business back?

Even if First do sell something tasty and they raise the £100 million target, I don't see it easing the pressure of the large debt burden very much. It will be interesting to see if those UK bus operations which have trialled the fare cuts have grown revenue/increased profitability

 

[overthewater]

Hence the reason I kept in few other companies which first need to take a good look at, and if there continue to drag Firstbus down again with debt ( were taking years worth of debts) then something will have to give at those places..

 

[markie73]

Out of interest what is the latest with first Leicester?, that has all gone quiet just lately!.

 

[KendalKing]

There's nothing to stop Stagecoach registering a competing service - especially if First look to be on the way out

Correct.

Remember my posting on the 21st.

Expect more, as a friend who works for Stagecoach at Northampton as said that stagecoach as registered a number of first routes in the town.

 

[MK Tom]

But surely both operators would lose money competing on a route that's already a loss maker like the 12?

 

[markie73]

But surely both operators would lose money competing on a route that's already a loss maker like the 12?

I remember the 5 when it was operated by First it was always late or never turned up at all, add to that it was very rarely used - look at this service now in the hands of Stagecoach always on-time, nearly always busy and with new/newish buses which shows Stagecoach invests in its operations.

No doubt Stagecoach has plans for the 12 which will turn a loss maker into a profit maker.

 

[overthewater]

Tomorrow at 7am is the last point in time....

I dont think we will get it, thus everything is still to play for :P

 

[markie73]

You gotta be kidding...

I suppose this could just be morning/evening/sunday services opposite the First service. Either that or first are giving up on the 4 which suffers competition from Uno and ONLY keeping the 2 and 4A.

Curious to see how the 3 will work as a right angled cross-town route. It's not even right angled, it's acute really. Unless of course this registration is for a totally different route that just also ends at Sunnyside.

Stagecoach service 3 is going to be a competition service against First Northampton and their service 4, First Northampton look to be only keeping the 2,4 and the 4A but Stagecoach are poised to be competing on the 2 and 4A as well.

I will be VERY surprised if this does not spell the end for First's operation in the town now with this assault by Stagecoach.

 

[Volvodart]

Stagecoach service 3 is going to be a competition service against First Northampton and their service 4.

PF0007071/338 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH EAST, ROTHERSTHORPE AVENUE, ROTHERSTHORPE AVENUE IND'L ESTATE, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8UT

Registration Accepted
Starting Point: Northampton
Finish Point: Sunnyside
Via:
Service Number: 3
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 09-JUN-2013
Other Details: Frequent service up to every 10min day time, Monday to Saturday, half-hourly evenings and Sundays

 

[Rich McLean]

PF0007071/338 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH EAST, ROTHERSTHORPE AVENUE, ROTHERSTHORPE AVENUE IND'L ESTATE, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8UT

Registration Accepted
Starting Point: Northampton
Finish Point: Sunnyside
Via:
Service Number: 3
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 09-JUN-2013
Other Details: Frequent service up to every 10min day time, Monday to Saturday, half-hourly evenings and Sundays

First are going to get hammered here

 

[markie73]

PF0007071/338 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH EAST, ROTHERSTHORPE AVENUE, ROTHERSTHORPE AVENUE IND'L ESTATE, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8UT

Registration Accepted
Starting Point: Northampton
Finish Point: Sunnyside
Via:
Service Number: 3
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 09-JUN-2013
Other Details: Frequent service up to every 10min day time, Monday to Saturday, half-hourly evenings and Sundays

At last a decent service on this route, seriously though I wonder how long First will continue their service 4 after Stagecoach appear on the Kingsthorpe scene given their planned service frequency during the day and also half hourly services in the evenings?.
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First are going to get hammered here

Especially as Stagecoach are going to swoop on the 2 and the 4A as well, how long will it be after these services start when First realise they dont have a chance of survival?.

 

[jonesy3001]

Not been to evesham for a bit and noticed a couple of buses with first livery and either first or diamond logos.

 

[winston270twm]

Stagecoach service 3 is going to be a competition service against First Northampton and their service 4, First Northampton look to be only keeping the 2,4 and the 4A but Stagecoach are poised to be competing on the 2 and 4A as well.

I will be VERY surprised if this does not spell the end for First's operation in the town now with this assault by Stagecoach.

Clearly if this is a new assault by Stagecoach on First's remaining operations in Northampton, I very much doubt the two parties are currently in discussion regarding Stagecoach buying any more of First Groups UK bus assets that they are still intending to dispose of......

Unless, it has been manufactured between the two parties to allow Stagecoach to takeover First's remaining operations without any money changing hands & thus will not attract interest from the Oft. First will then quietly slip away.......

 

[overthewater]

Not been to evesham for a bit and noticed a couple of buses with first livery and either first or diamond logos.

I bet it will a while for all the reprints to take effect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clearly if this is a new assault by Stagecoach

Unless, it has been manufactured between the two parties to allow Stagecoach to takeover First's remaining operations without any money changing hands & thus will not attract interest from the Oft. First will then quietly slip away.......

How much will first be saving on payoff to staff? And can there transfere pensions?

Does anyone know what will be drifted in to provide these new routes?

 

[Deerfold]

I bet it will a while for all the reprints to take effect.

What?

How much will first be saving on payoff to staff? And can there transfere pensions?

Does anyone know what will be drifted in to provide these new routes?

Your posts really are very hard to read. Especially in that you always seem to use "there" instead of "they".

How will First be saving on payoffs? If they close down the depot they'll have to pay redundancy payments.

Do you mean if Stagecoach take on the staff? I'd assume First will only save on redundancy payoffs and transfer pensions if there's an offical takeover of some type from Stagcoach. That's looking increasingly unlikely.

I suspect First wil run down the depot and drivers will increasingly apply for jobs with Stagecoach - if they do that before being made redundant First may save a bit.

 

[winston270twm]

How much will first be saving on payoff to staff? And can there transfere pensions?

I'm not sure First would save anything if they have gone down that route, ultimately First will still have to pay all the associated costs of closing down the business & take a hit on the accounts, its not as though they even have the depot to sell. The fact Northampton only lost £47k, with a bit of effort / investment in the region, I'd have thought that could easily be turned around to break even or a small profit. Stagecoach are clearly making money in the area, so its no as though its not good bus territory. The cheapest way for First to offload Northampton would be to sell the business on, but if Stagecoach are the only interested party, the Oft would no doubt get involved. It currently seems Stagecoach are taking over the business via the back door without having to acquire it as they did in Barnstable, I'd be very surprised if First had a change of heart & launched an offensive in Stagecoach dominated areas of Northampton......

 

[A0]

How much will first be saving on payoff to staff? And can there transfere pensions?

Does anyone know what will be drifted in to provide these new routes?

Well if First go for statutory minimum pay offs - the answer is probably not very much to be saved. Simplistically, statutory maximum is either £ 450 / week or 1 weeks salary (whichever is lower) for each year served.

So if they have 40 drivers all of whom have served 20 years you'll be looking at £ 9k per driver * 40 = £ 360,000.

And I doubt they have that particular profile of staff.

If they were TUPE'd to Stagecoach, pension rights aren't covered, however given the latest government legislation anyone Stagecoach took on would probably have to be auto-enrolled into a workplace pension in any case.

 

[MK Tom]

Am I right in thinking Stagecoach haven't got a registration for a Kingsthorpe route yet? By the way the Parklands end of the new 10 duplicates one of the not currently competed parts of the 2. Stagecoach already duplicate most of it.