First Group: General Discussion

[markie73]

And there you have shown what's horribly wrong with city status in this country.

I am very puzzled by First's talk of securing a long term future in Northampton by cutting routes. They have seven routes!!! If they cut any further they'll have what? Five? Four? Can you sustain an operation with that? Why do they want to? They'll just be an even smaller operation in the middle of Stagecoachland and facing competition from Uno who have considerable expansion plans.

Its a strange move from First and I dont understand why they are to cut allmost all of its route network which will leave only four services (4,4A and 29,30) which will reportedly end up getting the chop as well in due course, maybe its these four routes that will end up with Uno as part of their expansion plans?.

 

[MK Tom]

Do we have a source for those three routes being the survivors? Because every source I've found has said it's yet to be confirmed which routes will survive. I won't dignify the 29 and 30 by calling them separate routes!

Northampton certainly is a 'grande ville' by any definition. In the USA a city is about how the place was founded. You get cities as little as 50 people. So it is pretty meaningless, which is why I reject the royal charter and just treat 'city' as meaning 'large regional centre'. As far as I'm concerned, Northampton is every bit a city and St. Asaph is a village. Deviation from topic over

 

[overthewater]

First in Northampton: CHANGED
Are first reducing the fleet and routes to allow a sell off to Uno? thus making sure some money be grabbed in? does seem rather pointless..

* Betting withdrawn: Northampton to close down,
* Betting withdrawn: For the Depot to be sold off or with Leicester

First Edinburgh changed
What ever happened to the So called sell off of Stirling, It seems that was a lad of crap! T e Scottish Border has now received all its new buses but the £3'000'000 losses for the past financial year. Livingston is still basket-case with with the continuing vehicle shortages just how many more buses can be sent?

* Livingston & Musselburgh: EVENS
* Falkirk and Stirling: 25/1

London Depot: Changed
Talk of London been sold of to raise the £80M fast is still being banded about,
Could first be planing to sell off its London operations completely? No one has ever said this....... It could bring in £60m fast, add in rest of the crap maybe £20m and bingo we reach £100, and it would also help explain what first strategy was: Cut all non core bus business ie Contracts and loss makers. Stagecoach did this back in the early 00. Of course First wanted to keep London for the Olympics and nothing else?

* Any London Depot - EVENS
* Everything - 5/4

Bolton and Bury depots;
Talk has appeared in which Stagecoach have made offered of £36.2 million for the Bolton and Bury depots. But Arriva have phoned in the OFT, CC for Wigain, would both parties want to waste time?

* 11-10

Irish Aircoach Other Details of the current situation read Page 65. Accounts are not good reading, Could first hold tight in a hope Eire will pick up? will there be able to improve the leasing problems?
Or will a buying to found?

* 11/8

First Cornwall
with its 9.3% loses over the past Financial year. I can't understand why the loses are that big Even after gaining new new council work or did first really undercut? and got its sums so very very wrong?

* 6/4: close down a depot.
* 13/8 Any of the depots

First Leicester

* 5/1 - Sell off.

First Glasgow No2: CHANGED
The company is in the red by 7.3%. But First Glasgow has went for a third option, cut, run but keep all the staff..... Which means there no 90 day notice, there no pay offs and will save the company money. Cumbernauld is gone by 26th May. Only depot which is now at risk is Overtown.

* Overtown * 6/1

First Ipswich
Not big depot but after looking at the Fleet list and some of the recent service changes this could be classed as another underdog depot. Alot of P and R reg stock, nothing that stands out as a cash cow bar the park N ride which could be lost. How much will it cost to replace alot of the fleet even with T, X, reg which is also needed else where?

* 10/1 Sell off of close down.

First York , First Berkshire and First Somerset: changed
* Withdrawn...


Bolton and Bury depots; NEW
* Scrapped.

 

[Volvodart]

There is photo of the new Leicester logo posted today on the First Leicester Twitter page, so they are starting to promote the new livery.

 

[overthewater]

There is photo of the new Leicester logo posted today on the First Leicester Twitter page, so they are starting to promote the new livery.

Do you have a link?

 

[markie73]

'Bus routes at risk but First will stay' according to an article in the Chron newspaper, the article also has a quote from firsts commercial director 'while some routes in Northampton may have to be scaled back FIrst had no plans to leave northampton', and quote 'this is to make the business more sustainable for the future' and another quote 'nothing's been decided its still under discussion, one of the options is to reduce the number of buses in Northampton but we're still in the consultation stage'.

Now the best part is from the leader of the borough council who has written to first to offer the authorities help quote 'clearly its worrying there maybe a reduction in bus services in the town so I have written to first to offer any support we can'.

Now wasn't it the borough council that sold Northampton transport back in 1994 to pay for the redevelopment of six fields?.

 

[MK Tom]

which will leave only four services (4,4A and 29,30)

Do you have a source for this?

As for NBC's changed policy over a 19 year period, that just goes to show how attitudes and times change. It's hardly the same council it was then anyway.

 

[A0]

'Bus routes at risk but First will stay' according to an article in the Chron newspaper, the article also has a quote from firsts commercial director 'while some routes in Northampton may have to be scaled back FIrst had no plans to leave northampton', and quote 'this is to make the business more sustainable for the future' and another quote 'nothing's been decided its still under discussion, one of the options is to reduce the number of buses in Northampton but we're still in the consultation stage'.

Now the best part is from the leader of the borough council who has written to first to offer the authorities help quote 'clearly its worrying there maybe a reduction in bus services in the town so I have written to first to offer any support we can'.

Now wasn't it the borough council that sold Northampton transport back in 1994 to pay for the redevelopment of six fields?.

It's irrelevant who owns it - if the council still owned it there would still have been service reductions and a lack of investment in it. The council have far more important things to be worrying about and more pressing demands on their finances.

Frankly, Stagecoach provide Northampton with a decent service running from early in the morning until late in the evening at sensible frequencies.

The one or two areas which First cover that Stagecoach don't would soon be replaced if First left - which is what happened in large parts of the east of town when First removed some of their services.

And the sell off happened almost 20 years ago - the council has been in the control of all three major parties in the intervening time. The judgement made in 1994 was probably correct that the council had to redevelop the Sixfields area and running a bus company was probably not an activity they should be involved with.

All your trying to do is make a cheap point, which frankly shows the lack of maturity to your overall argument.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you have a source for this?

As for NBC's changed policy over a 19 year period, that just goes to show how attitudes and times change. It's hardly the same council it was then anyway.

It would perhaps have been better for the council to have remained quiet - let First depart and let Stagecoach pick up the slack.

For most people it would result in a better run service with newer buses - which is all most passengers are interested in.

 

[mbonwick]

A registration has appeared on VOSA today from Stagecoach Northampton for a Camp Hill - Kings Heath via Town service, numbered 12 running on a frequency of 15min M-Sat, 30min Sundays.

This competes with First routes 12, 29/30 so either these routes are getting the chop or First will see competition on what little they have left in Northampton....

 

[KendalKing]

A registration has appeared on VOSA today from Stagecoach Northampton for a Camp Hill - Kings Heath via Town service, numbered 12 running on a frequency of 15min M-Sat, 30min Sundays.

This competes with First routes 12, 29/30 so either these routes are getting the chop or First will see competition on what little they have left in Northampton....

Expect more, as a friend who works for Stagecoach at Northampton as said that stagecoach as registered a number of first routes in the town.

 

[tbtc]

A registration has appeared on VOSA today from Stagecoach Northampton for a Camp Hill - Kings Heath via Town service, numbered 12 running on a frequency of 15min M-Sat, 30min Sundays.

This competes with First routes 12, 29/30 so either these routes are getting the chop or First will see competition on what little they have left in Northampton....

If Stagecoach were to register competing services on the handful of routes that First were planning to retain then... game over?

 

[robertclark125]

Could be a firesale, in that Stagecoach take on the routes and drivers, but not the vehicles, premises, and no cash changes hands.

 

[mbonwick]

Err...yeah, except that First have said they're staying in Northampton with services 2/4/4A as there is a no-competition agreement with Stagecoach on Kingsthorpe services.

Clearly its a bit cheeky of First to only keep routes they're safe on, so it could well be the case that Stagecoach move in anyway.

There won't be a firesale though, at least not until right at the bitter end.

 

[robertclark125]

That bitter end might come sooner than later?

That article about Northampton transport in Buses last month could also, easily, be applied to Western National, First East scotland, and First Glasgow (Cumbernauld area)

 

[MK Tom]

One route nobody's accounted for here: the 28.

Stagecoach registering competing services doesn't make sense seeing as there is a standing no competition agreement between them and First. So I'm guessing First are intending to withdraw the 12, 29 and 30. That would fit with their statement which any kind of sale to SC wouldn't.

I would slightly disagree with the 'Stagecoach serve Northampton well' statement. They do a better job than First but that's hardly difficult. SC clearly give Northampton the thin end of the wedge when contrasted with their operations in Oxford or Cambridge. Services start early but many also finish early, and fares as I've remarked before are very high. Vehicle maintenance and reliability are excellent compared to other operators though.

 

[A0]

One route nobody's accounted for here: the 28.

Stagecoach registering competing services doesn't make sense seeing as there is a standing no competition agreement between them and First. So I'm guessing First are intending to withdraw the 12, 29 and 30. That would fit with their statement which any kind of sale to SC wouldn't.

I would slightly disagree with the 'Stagecoach serve Northampton well' statement. They do a better job than First but that's hardly difficult. SC clearly give Northampton the thin end of the wedge when contrasted with their operations in Oxford or Cambridge. Services start early but many also finish early, and fares as I've remarked before are very high. Vehicle maintenance and reliability are excellent compared to other operators though.

I'm not sure you can compare Oxford / Cambridge - with their huge student population - with Northampton.

I'd be more inclined to compare Northampton with Ipswich or Peterborough - demographically they're far closer.

On most routes, SC offer a frequent service through the daytime using what appear to be well maintained, modern vehicles. I don't believe the fares are excessive - you do as you've stated previously.

In terms of early finishes, I don't agree - here are the last services which SC runs all from the bus station :

1 - Rectory Farm 23:00
5 - Duston 22:45
7 - Moulton 23:10
8 - Towcester 23:30
9 - Duston 22:45
16 - Ecton Brook 23:00
X4 - Wellingborough 23:05
D1 - Daventry 22:45

That's most areas of the town covered with the last bus after 22:30 - which is a pretty good service - and is almost exactly the same as the coverage Ipswich buses offers in their local market.

 

[Ivo]

Hang on a minute, £3.40 for a Stagecoach Northampton day ticket? Am I reading that right? What is so expensive about £3.40?

 

[mbonwick]

MK Tom lives in an alternative reality when it comes to bus services I'm afraid. I dread the day he comes to the Lake District!

There is strong speculation that Stagecoach won't honour the no competition agreement once First retrench themselves.

 

[MK Tom]

Hang on a minute, £3.40 for a Stagecoach Northampton day ticket? Am I reading that right? What is so expensive about £3.40?

That's obviously pretty good. The single fares make no sense at all though. The costs for journeys of any distance (for instance Towcester to Daventry) are also very high and compare poorly with Arriva fares in Bucks where you can do MK-Maidenhead for £5.50.

Anyway we've done this debate before. I'm still curious about the 28 and whether people think First will retain it or not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

MK Tom lives in an alternative reality when it comes to bus services I'm afraid. I dread the day he comes to the Lake District!

There is strong speculation that Stagecoach won't honour the no competition agreement once First retrench themselves.

Have actually been! Didn't ride any buses though

I take it it's not a legally binding contract then?

 

[A0]

That's obviously pretty good. The single fares make no sense at all though. The costs for journeys of any distance (for instance Towcester to Daventry) are also very high and compare poorly with Arriva fares in Bucks where you can do MK-Maidenhead for £5.50.

Anyway we've done this debate before. I'm still curious about the 28 and whether people think First will retain it or not.

You could make the same comment about single rail fares though.

My guess is the majority of fares sold are returns or are for journeys where a change of bus is needed so the Day Rider probably makes up the majority of sales.

I suspect the MK - Maidenhead journey you refer to also needs a 'rover ticket' of some kind, since there isn't a direct service. On which basis I'd say Stagecoach's 'Dayrider Gold' at £ 10.80 offers far more, covering:

"Dayrider Gold allows unlimited travel on Stagecoach buses in Southern Britain, except Devon, Somerset, in or to/from London. Southern Britain is defined as Bedfordshire, Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Cambridgeshire, Gloucestershire, Hampshire, Hertfordshire, Leicestershire, Northamptonshire, Oxfordshire, South Wales, Warwickshire, West Sussex, Wiltshire and Worcestershire."

 

[overthewater]

What will stagecoach do with that " other " company of the 29/30 route I still expect the 28 to go aswell.

PF0007071/337 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH EAST, ROTHERSTHORPE AVENUE, ROTHERSTHORPE AVENUE IND'L ESTATE, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8UT
Registration Accepted
Starting Point: Kings Heath
Finish Point: Camp Hill
Via:
Service Number: 12
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 12-MAY-2013
Other Details: To operate a 15 minute frequency Monday-Saturday and half hourly on Sunday

 

[MK Tom]

Well I looked around and couldn't find a VOSA registration for the 28, or the West Hunsbury, Hunsbury Hill or Shelfleys areas generally. So I'm wondering if they're keeping that one. Seems odd though seeing as it doesn't justify a Sunday service in their minds (SC provide it instead with a diverted 8).

As for fares, well Arriva do have the £8.50 Explorer for the whole South East, but the £5.50 ticket is a Buckinghamshire area one. Stagecoach do this for Bedfordshire but there's nothing like it for Northamptonshire. Journeys requiring more than one route long-distance are priced very high. Also isn't £10.80 the Midlands Dayrider? Whenever I've bought the East Dayrider Gold it's cost £12. Anyway I'm not criticising Stagecoach or their fares generally, just some fares in Northampton and the treatment Northampton gets compared to other Stagecoach areas. Which as I said is nowhere near as bad as is the case for First. And if you want absurd fares, First lead on that every time in places like Bristol.

 

[Volvodart]

Well I looked around and couldn't find a VOSA registration for the 28, or the West Hunsbury, Hunsbury Hill or Shelfleys areas generally.

In the system but not yet published:-

UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD - PF0007071/339
Variation Number 0

Status New

Operator Name UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD

Service Number(s) 10

Start Point Shelfleys

Finish Point Parklands

Via


Service Type Normal Stopping

Date Received 19-MAR-2013

Effective Date 13-MAY-2013

End Date -

TAOs covered by route Eastern Traffic Area

Local Authorities covered by route Northamptonshire County Council

N&P Reference -

 

[markie73]

Err...yeah, except that First have said they're staying in Northampton with services 2/4/4A as there is a no-competition agreement with Stagecoach on Kingsthorpe services.

Clearly its a bit cheeky of First to only keep routes they're safe on, so it could well be the case that Stagecoach move in anyway.

There won't be a firesale though, at least not until right at the bitter end.

I remember back in 2004/05 when stagecoach operated the service 4U which ran in direct competition with First Northampton service 4, does anybody know how long the no-competition agreement has been in place between stagecoach and first?.

Tobe honest I think stagecoach will end up with all of First Northampton's routes I can't see the sense in First keeping three or four routes in the town I can't see it being viable for them.

 

[MK Tom]

Aah so it is just the 2 and 4/4A that are staying. This should look good after that!! http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/northampton/assets/pdfs/journey_planning/maps/northampton.pdf So I imagine that date in May when the new SC services start will also be the end of the road for the Citybuses and Lances.

Not just the 4U, Stagecoach competed on the 29/30 corridor as well for a while. The agreement was a result of that, and happened in 2006 I believe. Possibly 5. The thing is First have clearly said in their statement that they want to ensure 'the long term viability of the operation'.

Sorry to go off topic but if VOSA say 'cancelled' on an application, is that the ending of that service or just the cancelling of that application? Just because there's a 'cancelled' one for the Luton-MK route 99.

Also any thoughts on the 23? Stagecoach did recently ramp up their own services to Brackmills...

ALSO, you gotta check out the First Northampton website. It still thinks the University is called U.C.N. eight years after it became a full university, it thinks the River Nene goes two different ways at once, it boasts about Northampton's tourist attractions then gives details for a whole one museum, it still refers to the long-abandoned route colour coding and it thinks the Buzz Card is still valid on Northampton's 'MK Metro' services. Most of these errors are repeated in new timetable leaflets. Some of the pages are hilariously small and it gives great advice too like ''As the bus approaches, check the route number and destination displayed on the front of the bus.''.

 

[tbtc]

I'm not criticising Stagecoach or their fares generally, just some fares in Northampton and the treatment Northampton gets compared to other Stagecoach areas

Since Stagecoach aren't the incumbant operator for most of the "town" routes, I don't know why you are comparing them to cities where they are the undisputed number one operator?

And why are people talking about a "non competition pact" as some kind of legally binding document?

 

[MK Tom]

They are the incumbent now really. And I did compare them to Oxford where they drew one of the most fierce bus wars ever.

Is it legally binding? If it's a signed contract then that carries legal weight. I doubt it was just some off the record thing because in that case SC would've already gone against it the last time First downsized...

 

[mbonwick]

It cannot be a legally binding, signed document as the Competition Commission would be all over it under the Enterprise Act (2003).

A cancellation on VOSA is the cancellation of the service. It's perfectly possible to then register a new service from the cancellation date. Often this is done where a lot of details are being changed at once.

 

[overthewater]

Or a reg is being moved to another licence. I think we could bet on uno buying the 4/a now....

 

[mbonwick]

Or indeed that. I probably should mention actually that there is an industry-wide push to consolidate licences as VOSA shrinks down.

The net effect of this is that the United Counties licence will disappear soon, with Bedford going to the Cambus licence (along with Viscount) and the other UC depots to Midland Red (South).