First Group: General Discussion

[markie73]

Or a reg is being moved to another licence. I think we could bet on uno buying the 4/a now....

Uno has been strongly linked to the 4/4A which makes sense given their expansion plans for Northampton and also now they have the 21 which runs part of the existing First service 4 route (Eastern Ave,Kingsthorpe etc) when Uno introduced their service 21 First threatend to retaliate as they seen that as competition....well that never happened.

 

[MK Tom]

Threatened to? Did they put out any statements to that effect? That may just have been a rumour too. I really don't think First care what other operators do in Northampton now.

About VOSA, that may explain why both SC Bedford's 40 and 99 came up at the same time and next to each other.

 

[overthewater]

Oh first do care because first wants to avoid paying for wind up costs. If there can transfer the staff and get rid of the depot it will save money.

What are first planning to do with cornwall since big loses, while first Edinburgh are still being left in them middle bar border area.

 

[markie73]

Stagecoach have announced an extension to its service 1 which will include Northampton General Hospital and Brackmills Industrial Estate, so its certain that First Northampton's service 23 is no more and may be one of the routes that will disappear as part of the service cuts.

Stagecoach also serve Rectory Farm on the service 1 all be it a slightly different route to First's service 2, Stagecoach could alter the service 1 to cover the existing route served by First if they bin their service 2.

Both the service 4 and 4A are First Northampton's territory, although Uno operate the 21 on part of the service 4 route, Uno could easily extend the 21 route to cover Chalcombe, Holly Lodge Drive and Obelisk.

Given that Unobus want to extend their operations in Northampton then could these two routes be on their radar? and could Stagecoach have the 4 and 4A on their radar as well?, interesting times ahead but it all depends on what First decide what they actually want to do with their Northampton operation.
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Hang on a minute, £3.40 for a Stagecoach Northampton day ticket? Am I reading that right? What is so expensive about £3.40?

When you consider that a First Day ticket is £4.20 (which is the same price as a buzz day) then Stagecoach are good value for money - an adult single on First is £2.20 and an adult single on Stagecoach is £2.10.

It was only a short time back when First Northampton increased a majority of its ticket prices....

 

[moogal]

The 1 and the 2 are quite different routes - despite both ending up at Rectory Farm, the 1 takes in Weston Favell while the 2 offers a quicker route out from town via the Kettering Road. If Stagecoach (or anyone else) were going to offer a competitor/replacement for the 2, I can't imagine them using the 1.

In some ways it's interesting if they're extending the 1 to run out to Brackmills, given the general trend away from routes which cross town...

Given First are only making a relatively small loss on the operation, I do wonder how much investment it'd take for them to go the other way - recover ground against Stagecoach and actually win passengers back by providing good and useful services with less scruffy and knackered vehicles...

 

[MK Tom]

FirstDay is £4.00, up from £3.90 a month or two ago. £4.20 is the all operator Buzz Card. You have to specifically ask for a FirstDay though. Given the small network drivers tend to assume you want a Buzz Card if you just say 'day ticket'. Even though that makes First less money.

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The 1 and the 2 are quite different routes - despite both ending up at Rectory Farm, the 1 takes in Weston Favell while the 2 offers a quicker route out from town via the Kettering Road. If Stagecoach (or anyone else) were going to offer a competitor/replacement for the 2, I can't imagine them using the 1.

In some ways it's interesting if they're extending the 1 to run out to Brackmills, given the general trend away from routes which cross town...

Given First are only making a relatively small loss on the operation, I do wonder how much investment it'd take for them to go the other way - recover ground against Stagecoach and actually win passengers back by providing good and useful services with less scruffy and knackered vehicles...

That trend is reversing now, with the new 12 being cross-town, the 14 becoming cross town and now the new 10 being like that too.

The 1 does differ a lot from the 2, but those parts of the 2 not duplicated by the 1 are duplicated by the 7.

 

[tbtc]

Given that Unobus want to extend their operations in Northampton

Have they said that they want to extend their operations, or do enthusiasts just assume that they must want to?

 

[MK Tom]

Have they said that they want to extend their operations, or do enthusiasts just assume that they must want to?

I've had them say this to me personally when I asked them. The size of their depot registration is also much larger than needed for the 18/19/21.

 

[radamfi]

First have cut their FirstDay in Greater Manchester to £4 (same price as Northampton now!)

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/greater_manchester/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=10081&conf=0

This, on the face of it, suggests a firm commitment to keeping their whole GM operations. However, looking at it sideways, it might be worth noting that they already cut their FirstDay to £4 for the area inside the M60 and for the Oldham borough area. This is largely the area which would be left if Bolton and Bury depots were sold off, and those depots are what was rumoured to have had an offer from Stagecoach from recently.

 

[Ivo]

And if you want absurd fares, First lead on that every time in places like Bristol.

You don't really believe that do you? First fares in the area are not nearly as bad as is suggested in popular media (or by half-wits with poor grammatical ability who decide the Government can tell them to change their fares).

My advice to people who complain, especially regular passengers, is to think for a moment. If you travel every day on a route which charges a £6 return, buy a South-West weekly/monthly...

In fact. I have criticised them for certain fares being too cheap. £90 for a 13-week Student pass in Bath is far too low - if I was in charge of pricing, it would be nearer £120. But with those Rotala morons around, such a price would destroy the depot's cash cow (the 18).

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...port/northampton-bus-routes-at-risk-1-4924809

Northampton bus routes at risk

By Wayne Bontoft
Published on 23/03/2013 07:55

First Buses says it has no plans to pull out of Northampton, despite warning staff that job losses and service cuts could be on the horizon.

At the end of last week, staff at First in Northampton were sent a memo warning that jobs and bus services were under threat due to the recession.

The memo stated: “It is with regret I have to inform you we are proposing to discontinue a number of services in Northampton.

“We have begun consultation with the trade unions on the possibility of some redundancies at our Northampton depot.

“I can appreciate this is unsettling news for employees and it will also be unwelcome news for our customers.”

The memo said the cuts were needed because some routes in Northampton had “under-performed for some years”.

But the firm’s commercial director, Steve Zanker, said that while some routes in Northampton may have to be scaled back, First had no plans to leave Northampton completely.

He said: “We are not planning to pull out of the town. This is simply to make the business more sustainable for the future.”

He also added that no final decision had yet been made on whether services would actually be cut.

He said: “Nothing’s been decided yet, it’s still under discussion. One of the options is to reduce the number of buses in Northampton, but we’re still in the consultation stage.”

Talks with staff are expected to last for about a month.

In response to the possible cuts, the leader of Northampton Borough Council, Councillor David Mackintosh (Con, Rectory Farm) has written to First to offer the authority’s help.

He said: “Clearly, it’s worrying there may be a reduction in bus services in the town.

“So I’ve written to First to offer any support we can,” he added.

 

[MK Tom]

Well no firm decisions have been made he says? I would like to see them try to run the 12 and 29/30 alongside the now confirmed new Stagecoach services!

Apropos Bristol, I'll leave it to people who understand that city's transport situation to decide what's good and bad.

 

[markie73]

From First Northampton website

'First is proud to play an important part in keeping Northampton moving by providing a comprehensive network of bus services and offering a wide range of ticketing products to suit peoples travel needs.'

Comprehensive network of bus services?, I think they need to re-word this when or if their service changes start to take effect.

By the way does anybody on the forum know anymore about what maybe going and what could be staying at Northampton?
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Well no firm decisions have been made he says? I would like to see them try to run the 12 and 29/30 alongside the now confirmed new Stagecoach services!

Apropos Bristol, I'll leave it to people who understand that city's transport situation to decide what's good and bad.

I thought that the service 12 was being cancelled by First and then being re-registered by Stagecoach?

 

[MK Tom]

I think they should've re-worded that when they canceled the 3 and the 5.

Yes I may actually write to the Chronicle saying how First are claiming they haven't decided to cancel routes for definite even when... (this is the answer to your 'what may be going' question) ...Stagecoach have registered a service 12 running from Camp Hill to Kings Heath and a service 10 running from Shelfleys to Parklands. These duplicate the 12, 28, 29 and 30 and I don't believe for a second First would ever operate them in competition when they're loss makers (the 12 and 28 at least) already. It's pretty clear Stagecoach know what routes First are planning to withdraw.

The Chron might not accept a letter from someone with an MK address so it might stand more chance getting in if written by a Northampton resident.

 

[markie73]

I think they should've re-worded that when they canceled the 3 and the 5.

Yes I may actually write to the Chronicle saying how First are claiming they haven't decided to cancel routes for definite even when... (this is the answer to your 'what may be going' question) ...Stagecoach have registered a service 12 running from Camp Hill to Kings Heath and a service 10 running from Shelfleys to Parklands. These duplicate the 12, 28, 29 and 30 and I don't believe for a second First would ever operate them in competition when they're loss makers (the 12 and 28 at least) already. It's pretty clear Stagecoach know what routes First are planning to withdraw.

The Chron might not accept a letter from someone with an MK address so it might stand more chance getting in if written by a Northampton resident.

I wonder if First will see sense (?) and de-register the whole lot after they realise that just operating three services wont be viable and will continue to make a loss?.

Why not just undertake a non-asset sale to Stagecoach to safeguard some of the drivers and depot staff jobs, though I would like to see Uno get a piece of the action as well.

 

[westcoaster]

I think they should've re-worded that when they canceled the 3 and the 5.

Yes I may actually write to the Chronicle saying how First are claiming they haven't decided to cancel routes for definite even when... (this is the answer to your 'what may be going' question) ...Stagecoach have registered a service 12 running from Camp Hill to Kings Heath and a service 10 running from Shelfleys to Parklands. These duplicate the 12, 28, 29 and 30 and I don't believe for a second First would ever operate them in competition when they're loss makers (the 12 and 28 at least) already. It's pretty clear Stagecoach know what routes First are planning to withdraw.

The Chron might not accept a letter from someone with an MK address so it might stand more chance getting in if written by a Northampton resident.

I don't see why you shouldn't as its also on the news web page, and the covers the whole world, so someone from a dozen miles away should be fine.

 

[markie73]

I wonder how many buses First will retain to operate a skeleton network? that's presuming they push ahead with the cuts and don't bin the operation altogether.

I think its safe to say that the three Citybuses will go, hopefully to another operator such as Country Lion and not to the scrapyard.

 

[overthewater]

How will stagecoach make money on those routes if First could not? What will there do about Meridian Bus?

 

[markie73]

How will stagecoach make money on those routes if First could not? What will there do about Meridian Bus?

Well when you look at the way Stagecoach have invested in their Northampton network over the past few years (new buses, cheaper fares & timetables which include late evening services) and also they operate several ex-First Northampton routes such as the 5 which has been overhauled from a loss maker into a profit maker then they are capable of overhauling other ex-First routes as well.

On the other hand look at the routes First have abandoned over the past couple of years, there has also been no new buses and there has been next to no investment over the years and also they are now the most expensive of the operators in Northampton.

 

[MK Tom]

Markie is completely right there.

I expect the Citybuses and the Lances will go and the 2/4/4A will just be run with Ultralows. They won't need all of the ones they have though so some may find themselves transferred away. Pretty safe to say the Citybuses have had it though.

Incidentally can anyone tell me if one can expect Citybuses and Lances to be in service at weekends? I'm planning to go up and do one more ride around the network before this happens.

 

[markie73]

Markie is completely right there.

I expect the Citybuses and the Lances will go and the 2/4/4A will just be run with Ultralows. They won't need all of the ones they have though so some may find themselves transferred away. Pretty safe to say the Citybuses have had it though.

Incidentally can anyone tell me if one can expect Citybuses and Lances to be in service at weekends? I'm planning to go up and do one more ride around the network before this happens.

MKTom I would do your travels on the lances and city buses sooner rather then later, I hope that the two lances are retained though.

 

[MK Tom]

MKTom I would do your travels on the lances and city buses sooner rather then later, I hope that the two lances are retained though.

Being not DDA compliant the Lances will have to go by whenever the deadline is for long body single deckers.

Do both types run on Saturdays typically? I only tend to be in Northampton on weekdays and that tends to be on business.

 

[markie73]

Being not DDA compliant the Lances will have to go by whenever the deadline is for long body single deckers.

Do both types run on Saturdays typically? I only tend to be in Northampton on weekdays and that tends to be on business.

I have seen both the lances and the city buses around Northampton mainly on Saturdays, however they tend to use the only the ultra lows on the Sunday services but with first you never know your luck!

 

[overthewater]

And Now its time for the VERY LAST Odds before the end of the financial year, of course will First raise the remaining £80M? I doubt but there may come close to it. On top of that a few of the First depots are still not working as good as its core assets, what will first do to sort them out?

London Depot: Changed

* Any London Depot - EVENS
* Everything - EVENS

First in Northampton: CHANGED
Are first reducing the fleet and routes to allow a sell off to Uno? thus making sure some money be grabbed in? does seem rather pointless..

* Betting withdrawn: Northampton to close down,
* 11/10: For the last operations to be sold to UNO

First Edinburgh changed
Bar the Scottish Border, every where else is not out of the woods yet, but HAS the company done enough to change Approx £4M losses into some sort of profit? I really doubt it, if that was the case other depots would have seen improvements.

* Livingston & Musselburgh: EVENS

Irish Aircoach Other Details of the current situation read Page 65. Accounts are not good reading, Could first hold tight in a hope Eire will pick up? will there be able to improve the leasing problems?
Or will a buying to found?

* 11/8

First Cornwall
with its 9.3% loses over the past Financial year. I can't understand why the loses are that big Even after gaining new new council work or did first really undercut? and got its sums so very very wrong?

* 6/4: close down a depot.
* 13/8 Any of the depots

First Glasgow No2: CHANGED
The company is in the red by 7.3%. Has overhauling Lanarkshire routes and closing Cumbernauld got rid of the losses?

* Overtown: what will happen?

First Ipswich
What are first going to do to improve its fortunes? Alot of P and R reg stock, nothing that stands out as a cash cow bar the park N ride which could be lost. How much will it cost to replace alot of the fleet even with T, X, reg which is also needed else where?


First Leicester
What are first going to do to improve its fortunes?

 

[DunsBus]

First Edinburgh changed
Bar the Scottish Border, every where else is not out of the woods yet, but HAS the company done enough to change Approx £4M losses into some sort of profit? I really doubt it, if that was the case other depots would have seen improvements.

* Livingston & Musselburgh: EVENS

Don't quote me on this, or take it as gospel, but apparently East Lothian Buses have been recruiting extra drivers recently. This could just be to create a bigger pool of drivers for the 113, but it could also be for future expansion in East Lothian if First decide to pull out of Musselburgh.

There are also very strong hints being dropped that First will quit Livingston. If this happens then the depot will be sold, not closed, and National Express are rumoured to be in the frame as a possible buyer for it.

Although the Borders has recently received new buses and has commenced repaints into the new livery, none of the new buses or the repaints carry fleetnames at present. Again this could just be because they haven't decided on an identity for the Borders yet, but it could also be that First may sell the Borders operations. I would say to keep an eye on the whole of First Scotland East, just in case.

 

[overthewater]

Another name in the ring is Go-Ahead, but that cant be Gospel either..

 

[MK Tom]

Can anyone confirm for me if this Northampton fleet list is still up to date? http://wmbusphotos.com/FirstNorthampton/fleetlist.html I'm going up next Saturday with a view to riding one of the Citybuses and one of the Lances if both are in service. A Gemini would be great too if they're still about.

 

[overthewater]

Gemini have been sent away have there not?

 

[Volvodart]

Another forthcoming registration:-

UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD - PF0007071/338

Variation Number 0

Status New

Operator Name UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD

Service Number(s) 3

Start Point Northampton

Finish Point Sunnyside

Via

Service Type Normal Stopping

Date Received 25-MAR-2013

Effective Date 09-JUN-2013

End Date -

TAOs covered by route Eastern Traffic Area

Local Authorities covered by route Northamptonshire County Council

N&P Reference

 

[markie73]

Gemini have been sent away have there not?

As far as I know both Gemini's are still in the fleet but I would not be surprised to see them vanish sooner rather then later.
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Another forthcoming registration:-

UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD - PF0007071/338

Variation Number 0

Status New

Operator Name UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD

Service Number(s) 3

Start Point Northampton


Finish Point Sunnyside

Via

Service Type Normal Stopping

Date Received 25-MAR-2013

Effective Date 09-JUN-2013

End Date -

TAOs covered by route Eastern Traffic Area

Local Authorities covered by route Northamptonshire County Council

N&P Reference

Well I thought that first was going to retain the service 4 as part of their skeleton service in the town?, it looks like the operation is all but confirmed as finished.

I hope that stagecoach give us a better timetable on this route especially when it comes to late evening services, looks like stagecoach will have to invest in more buses!