First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

A division of the US company has been sold off:
http://home.nestor.minsk.by/build/news/2013/03/1103.html

Can't find anything on Parsons Website / online stating how much this has been sold for, neither have First Group made any announcements to the London Stock Exchange, therefore I suspect the sale proceeds can't have been very much as they appear to be a service provider and a none core asset

http://www.firstsupportservices.com/

http://www.parsons.com/media-resources/news/Pages/13-03-pgs-fss.aspx
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This keeps coming up. I thought that the end of the financial year was an aspirational date rather than a deadline.

I suspect you're right as First have confirmed that they identified a way of raising the outstanding funds to hit their £100 million disposal target, but they also said that there are prepared to wait for the right deal and there was no rush. It largely depends how much pressure the board are getting off major shareholders

 

[overthewater]

The longer this drags on the worse it will get, plus the accounts for next year I doubt will provide more grim reading.




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It seems a member of staff has said a notice has appear in Northampton Depot
Basic line is this " basically Northampton cant be sold off, and the staff should watch out for redundancy's. can this be double checked?

 

[83G/84D]

Apart from Northampton, Leicesters, and most of Livingston, where else has No new colours

Cornwall has nothing in new First colours although there are some wearing it over the border in Devon.
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Any news on the Plymouth/South Devon Operation. Came down today, and apart from the Park and Ride, all buses are in the old livery and hardly any new buses. The ones that they did get have vanished in recent years

A couple of ex London Dart's are in the new livery as is a single Plymouth based Trident. The remaining ex London Dart's are still red and parked up at Chelson meadow out of use a few weeks back.

 

[markie73]

The longer this drags on the worse it will get, plus the accounts for next year I doubt will provide more grim reading.




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It seems a member of staff has said a notice has appear in Northampton Depot
Basic line is this " basically Northampton cant be sold off, and the staff should watch out for redundancy's. can this be double checked?

IF the above is true then it all but confirms the start of the end for First Northampton, how long before we see the likes of Stagecoach and maybe uno stepping in and providing an emergency timetable to bridge the gap left by First should they leave the town?

 

[A0]

IF the above is true then it all but confirms the start of the end for First Northampton, how long before we see the likes of Stagecoach and maybe uno stepping in and providing an emergency timetable to bridge the gap left by First should they leave the town?

Surely all that will happen is First will de-register the services, which they have to give - which they have to give 56 days notice for once the application has been accepted by VOSA and then serve any employees notice of redundancy effective from the date of the routes being cancelled?

In terms of whether Stagecoach, UNO or any other would replace them is surely down to whether there are areas left un-served if First leave, to recap, First's routes are:

2 - Town - Rectory Farm / Blackthorn - covered by other Stagecoach services.

4/4A - Town - Obelisk / Spring Park - partly covered by Stagecoach & UNO.

12 - Town - Camp Hill - no competition currently

23 - Town - Brackmills - covered by other Stagecoach services.

28 - Town - Shelfleys - partly covered by Stagecoach 8.

29 / 30 - Town - Kings Heath - covered by Meridian 31.

So not much expansion needed to cover it off from the other operators.

 

[overthewater]

I can see Stagecoach going for whole lot and then doing an over haul to provide maybe a CITI network in the town?

 

[A0]

I can see Stagecoach going for whole lot and then doing an over haul to provide maybe a CITI network in the town?

No - doubt it. Stagecoach have spent alot getting their routes right and branding in the last couple of years. Doubt they'd be planning to tear it all up and start again.

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...in-northampton-1-4905149#.UUMPHMwjiso.twitter

Bus routes and jobs could be cut in Northampton

First Bus in Northampton
First Bus in Northampton



By Wayne Bontoft
Published on 15/03/2013 12:07



Jobs could be lost and bus routes cut in Northamptonshire following an announcement by First Buses.



An internal memo which has been seen by the Chron suggests jobs could be lost at the bus company’s Northampton depot due to the impact of the recession on the transport industry.

The memo also suggests some bus services could be cut, but does not say which.

It said: “It is with regret that I have to inform you that we are proposing to discontinue a number of services in Northampton.

“We have begun the collective consultation process with the trade unions on the possibility of some redundancies at our Northampton depot.

“I can appreciate this is unsettling news for the employees at this depot and it will also be unwelcome news for our customers who use these routes.”

The staff memo suggested cuts to services in Northampton are needed to secure the long term future of First’s operation in the town.

It said: “Some of our routes in Northampton have under-performed for some years.

“We are now faced with extra cost pressures due to the economic climate and cuts in external funding to bus operators.

“Unfortunately, in this instance it means we need to discontinue services in order to ensure the long term sustainability of our operations.

“We are working through a detailed plan to recover performance in our UK bus division and equip the business to achieve sustainable growth and improved returns.

“While we have to face the fact that we are living in challenging times, we will only consider taking action such as this after we have made every effort to seek out alternatives and I am truly sorry that we now have to propose the possibility of making some redundancies.”

A spokesman for the bus company confirmed to the Chron that cuts were being considered due to the economic climate.

She said: “Following a review of our Northampton business, we have announced that reductions to services may be necessary to ensure the long term sustainability of our operations.

“This is obviously unsettling news and we have begun the consultation process with colleagues at the Northampton depot.”

 

[radamfi]

That memo would indicate that they still intend to keep a depot in the town and continue to operate some local buses, albeit a reduced number.

 

[tbtc]

That memo would indicate that they still intend to keep a depot in the town and continue to operate some local buses, albeit a reduced number.

This is surprising - can the existing operations really be cut much further before the depot size (etc) becomes uneconomic to operate?

 

[overthewater]

Why would there want to keep northampton open for what 20 odd buses??

 

[Ivo]

Do Northampton still have the Luton Airport shuttle contract (using *our* bendies )?

I can see Stagecoach going for whole lot and then doing an over haul to provide maybe a CITI network in the town?

Do CITI networks exist outside of cities?

 

[tbtc]

Do CITI networks exist outside of cities?

First had "Metro" for towns not big enough to warrant an Overground - I can't think of a watered down Stagecoach equivalent of CITI though

 

[cainebj]

First had "Metro" for towns not big enough to warrant an Overground - I can't think of a watered down Stagecoach equivalent of CITI though

I don't know if there's any currently in use, but Cumbria's Kendal depot used to have "Kendal Town Links", albeit a rather small network. The brand disappeared when the branded Dart's were replaced by newer vehicles. I think that is probably the nearest a town has got to Citi branding.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29411541@N03/8417845049/ (photo: Paul McGill)

Cumbria's Barrow depot also had "Network Barrow", which was replicated later on at Chorley too with "Network Chorley", both with similar brand. Network Barrow was replaced by "Love Barrow", and "Network Chorley" is being phased out as vehicles are repainted.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29311521@N08/6201670414/ (photo: myself)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ian_simpson/2961235439/ (photo: Ian Simpson)

 

[overthewater]

First had "Metro" for towns not big enough to warrant an Overground - I can't think of a watered down Stagecoach equivalent of CITI though

* Carlisle has citi, Population 71,773
* Preston had Citi - Population 114,30
* Cambridge has Citi - Population 122,700

And Northampton Population is 212,500... I think there could have CITI...

 

[radamfi]

* Preston had Citi - Population 114,30

To be fair, the population of Preston quoted there does not include the South Ribble district, where much of Preston's urban area and Stagecoach's network is.

 

[Ivo]

First had "Metro" for towns not big enough to warrant an Overground - I can't think of a watered down Stagecoach equivalent of CITI though

You say that, but the only experience I have of "Metro" is Southend - when Basildon, Chelmsford and Colchester, all of which are only ~60% of Southend's size, all had Overground networks. The difference was that First had very little in the way of town routes for Southend (at the time the only routes that stayed in Southend were contracted; there is now one with a second planned for May) and instead formed more of a metro-like network from various notable locations, including Basildon, leading into the town. By contrast, allowing for district areas only Basildon's 100 - Essex's premier interurban route - and the short-lived 12 to Benfleet actually left the area the Overground network covered, and even then most of the rest stayed in or very near the primary urban area, especially in Chelmsford.

* Carlisle has citi, Population 71,773
* Preston had Citi - Population 114,30
* Cambridge has Citi - Population 122,700

And Northampton Population is 212,500... I think there could have CITI...

Carlisle is a City. Preston is a (recent) City. Cambridge is a City. Peterborough is a City. Gloucester is a City.

Northampton is bigger than all of them - but is *not* a City.

 

[markie73]

Why would there want to keep northampton open for what 20 odd buses??

I've got to say I am very surprised that First intend to keep a 'small' presence in Northampton, but what will this acheive? like many others I was expecting First to completely pull the plug on Northampton given its losses.

I will be VERY interested to see what routes they do decide to cut but I bet they will keep hold of the 4 and 4A routes.
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Surely all that will happen is First will de-register the services, which they have to give - which they have to give 56 days notice for once the application has been accepted by VOSA and then serve any employees notice of redundancy effective from the date of the routes being cancelled?

In terms of whether Stagecoach, UNO or any other would replace them is surely down to whether there are areas left un-served if First leave, to recap, First's routes are:

2 - Town - Rectory Farm / Blackthorn - covered by other Stagecoach services.

4/4A - Town - Obelisk / Spring Park - partly covered by Stagecoach & UNO.

12 - Town - Camp Hill - no competition currently

23 - Town - Brackmills - covered by other Stagecoach services.

28 - Town - Shelfleys - partly covered by Stagecoach 8.

29 / 30 - Town - Kings Heath - covered by Meridian 31.

So not much expansion needed to cover it off from the other operators.

I cant see First discontinuing the Service 4 and 4A its one of their core routes in the town.

 

[robertclark125]

Could a firesale type thing occur, where First asks Stagecoach to take on all drivers and routes, but no buses, money, or depot or other premises change hands? Happened here in Fife in 2009, when Kelty Coaches owners retired, and all staff and contracts transfered to Stagecoach Fife at Cowdenbeath, but no money, premises, or buses changed hands? The KC deal was a very small scale (KC had 8 buses at the end), but the OFT can't investigate such a deal, as there is no real transaction as such.

 

[overthewater]

Has anyone heard Rumour - First purchasing twenty, 10 year old short Darts from Connex Jersey?

 

[winston270twm]

Has anyone heard Rumour - First purchasing twenty, 10 year old short Darts from Connex Jersey?

Its possible, as they had a leather interior and were advertised for sale with Ensign Bus, but the listing has been removed off their website/they aren't included in Ensign's latest advert in Route one either so appear to have found a buyer.
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Its possible, as they had a leather interior and were advertised for sale with Ensign Bus, but the listing has been removed off their website/they aren't included in Ensign's latest advert in Route one either so appear to have found a buyer.

Think we may be talking cross purposes, its the ex Connex Enviro 200's I am referring too, the older short Darts would be Caetano Nimbus

If you scroll down there are pictures of them being loaded on to a cargo ship, think there are 21 in total. Should imagine they will be low mileage even at 10 years old
http://www.solentstevedores.co.uk/photo_gallery.php

 

[overthewater]

Good to see that I have been nearly on the ball with what is being sold off, but we still have two weeks left for some surprises!
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Northampton is a given now, but is now being revised:

First in Northampton: CHANGED
Are first reducing the fleet and routes to allow a sell off to Uno? thus making sure some money be grabbed in? does seem rather pointless..

* Betting withdrawn: Northampton to close down,
* Betting withdrawn: For the Depot to be sold off or with Leicester


First Edinburgh changed
What ever happened to the So called sell off of Stirling, It seems that was a lad of crap! T e Scottish Border has now received all its new buses but the £3'000'000 losses for the past financial year. Livingston is still basket-case with with the continuing vehicle shortages just how many more buses can be sent?

* Livingston & Musselburgh: EVENS
* Falkirk and Stirling: 25/1

London Depot
Talk of London been sold of to raise the £80M fast is still being banded about,
Could first be planing to sell off its London operations completely? No one has ever said this....... It could bring in £60m fast, add in rest of the crap maybe £20m and bingo we reach £100, and it would also help explain what first strategy was: Cut all non core bus business ie Contracts and loss makers. Stagecoach did this back in the early 00. Of course First wanted to keep London for the Olympics and nothing else?

* Any London Depot - 5/6
* Everything - 11/10

First Cornwall
with its 9.3% loses over the past Financial year. I can't understand why the loses are that big Even after gaining new new council work or did first really undercut? and got its sums so very very wrong?

* 13/8 Any of the depots

Irish Aircoach Other Details of the current situation read Page 65. Accounts are not good reading, Could first hold tight in a hope Eire will pick up? will there be able to improve the leasing problems?
Or will a buying to found?

* 13/5

First Berkshire
The fleet is not as bad as other place but it heading the same way as Wigan, relying more on older 10 year old darts. New stock is suppose to be appearing which should kill off S & T reg buses, with Dart "52" plate from London could be drafted in to replace older X reg darts. Unless someone else knows anything else?

* 7/2 : Sell Off

First Leicester

* 9/2 - Sell off.

First Glasgow No2: CHANGED
The company is in the red by 7.3%. But First Glasgow has went for a third option, cut, run but keep all the staff..... Which means there no 90 day notice, there no pay offs and will save the company money. Cumbernauld is gone by 26th May. Only depot which is now at risk is Overtown.

* Overtown * 7/2

First York Changed
Why Has First come back in? well If London fails to be sold off where else in the north could fetch a nice penny?

* Withdrawn...

First Somerset
Apart from northampton is the only company from that list still waiting to be sold off. Some people have questioned this but I did say this maybe the RED Hearing in the list to confuse

* 13/8 Any of the depots: Why has it been cut? but there still talk of something getting the chop in the southwest...

First Ipswich
Not big depot but after looking at the Fleet list and some of the recent service changes this could be classed as another underdog depot. Alot of P and R reg stock, nothing that stands out as a cash cow bar the park N ride which could be lost. How much will it cost to replace alot of the fleet even with T, X, reg which is also needed else where?

* 10/1 Sell off of close down.

Bolton and Bury depots; NEW
Talk has appeared in which Stagecoach have made offered of £36.2 million for the Bolton and Bury depots. But Arriva have phoned in the OFT, CC for Wigain, would both parties want to waste time?

* 15/1

 

[KendalKing]

Bolton and Bury depots; NEW
Talk has appeared in which Stagecoach have made offered of £36.2 million for the Bolton and Bury depots. But Arriva have phoned in the OFT, CC for Wigain, would both parties want to waste time?

* 15/1

Can't see bury depot being sold, as most of the buses have recently been repainted into the lastest livery.

Plus both depots, have recently received new buses.

 

[overthewater]

Can't see bury depot being sold, as most of the buses have recently been repainted into the lastest livery.

Plus both depots, have recently received new buses.

It only been included since that strange rumor appeared, its the highest odd of the all the depots.

 

[34D]

Do Northampton still have the Luton Airport shuttle contract (using *our* bendies )?



Do CITI networks exist outside of cities?

There was the mars network in Bedford (does that still exist)?

Re luton, didn't this used to be with one bit of first (London?) then get transferred to Northampton? The vehicles and drivers are based in a yard in south London I believe, and visit a local Volvo truck&bus dealership for PMIs etc (this may be out of date, so please correct me if you know more).

 

[overthewater]

There was the mars network in Bedford (does that still exist)?

Re luton, didn't this used to be with one bit of first (London?) then get transferred to Northampton? The vehicles and drivers are based in a yard in south London I believe, and visit a local Volvo truck&bus dealership for PMIs etc (this may be out of date, so please correct me if you know more).

Space network was dropped a few years ago, 2007/08.

 

[winston270twm]

It only been included since that strange rumor appeared, its the highest odd of the all the depots.

I should imagine Bolton at least is one of First Manchester's most profitable depots judging by all the new buses its received... Maybe it was Stagecoach just making a speculative approach, it was just strange that an actual offer figure had been quoted & it was posted by a Hyde Road Stagecoach member of staff.

I'd have thought that other bus groups will have made offers for some of First's operations that weren't on the for sale list as well

 

[tbtc]

I'd have thought that other bus groups will have made offers for some of First's operations that weren't on the for sale list as well

I presume so - if you wanted to buy a depot off First then you're not going to be very tempted with the loss making names being bandied about - why not test their need for "£100m" and try to get them to sell something that actually makes money!

 

[MK Tom]

Carlisle is a City. Preston is a (recent) City. Cambridge is a City. Peterborough is a City. Gloucester is a City.

Northampton is bigger than all of them - but is *not* a City.

And there you have shown what's horribly wrong with city status in this country.

I am very puzzled by First's talk of securing a long term future in Northampton by cutting routes. They have seven routes!!! If they cut any further they'll have what? Five? Four? Can you sustain an operation with that? Why do they want to? They'll just be an even smaller operation in the middle of Stagecoachland and facing competition from Uno who have considerable expansion plans.

 

[radamfi]

And there you have shown what's horribly wrong with city status in this country.

Most countries don't have any distinction between a town and a city like we have with royal charters.

Many languages don't either. At best, you have 'town' and 'big town'

e.g. 'grote stad' in Dutch, 'grande ville' in French.