First Group: General Discussion

[90019]

...but 90% of the order is for single deckers - which makes me think that these buses are either *very* high spec, or the price of new vehicles really has gone up a lot in recent years.

I've been told that a new B9TL/Gemini 2 will set you back around £220k.
An E400h is in the region of £350k.

I'm not sure about single decks.

 

[tbtc]

I've been told that a new B9TL/Gemini 2 will set you back around £220k.
An E400h is in the region of £350k.

I'm not sure about single decks.

Cheers - I'm going to need at least a couple of lottery wins in that case!

 

[90019]

Cheers - I'm going to need at least a couple of lottery wins in that case!

You could get yourself one of the old 500s for just £12k. (I believe it's some of the W reg ones)

 

[bb21]

Aren't they Presidents? They don't look like 500s and I don't remember Lothian having any 500s.

The windscreen on the streetlites, are the same as on other current Wrights models.

ADL are also styling all they models with the same style. So that a number body parts, can be inter-changed between models.

They might be the same parts, but they are not the same shape, and flat-tops just don't work for me with a "smiley chin", especially so on single-deckers. Sorry.

 

[Ivo]

Certainly look like Presidents. 2000-ish Presidents aren't exactly rare.

So no indication of where this investment will benefit? Assuming the 2013-14 financial year is defined as 06/04/13 to 05/04/14, I think I can pinpoint a small number of E300s (eleven to be exact) as being bound for Bath for the X39 service to Bristol.

 

[tbtc]

So no indication of where this investment will benefit? Assuming the 2013-14 financial year is defined as 06/04/13 to 05/04/14, I think I can pinpoint a small number of E300s (eleven to be exact) as being bound for Bath for the X39 service to Bristol.

Is there a reason it's not a double deck route? Seemed busy enough last time we were down there.

The original batch of R-reg B10BLEs ordered for it (when FirstBus/ FirstGroup was a whole new concept, as was barbie livery, turquoise seats etc) are plodding around Sheffield these days, quite a comedown from their days as "flagship" buses.

 

[mbonwick]

The Lothian vehicles for sale are indeed Presidents. What 90019 means by '500s' is their fleetnumbers; they were all 5xx while in service.

 

[90019]

Aren't they Presidents? They don't look like 500s and I don't remember Lothian having any 500s.

They're Presidents (though the crap ones with smaller engines), the 500s refers to the fleet numbers.

 

[Ivo]

Is there a reason it's not a double deck route? Seemed busy enough last time we were down there.

The original batch of R-reg B10BLEs ordered for it (when FirstBus/ FirstGroup was a whole new concept, as was barbie livery, turquoise seats etc) are plodding around Sheffield these days, quite a comedown from their days as "flagship" buses.

A lot of journeys at the moment are double deck, primarily to allow the route extra capacity during the peak (even they are full-and-standing sometimes) - because apparently even 5bph isn't enough. But it is a single-deck route as standard for reasons that are about as sensible as the much-maligned withdrawal of Service 8 last year (see the last paragraph of this post). Worse, the B7s ordered for it in 2004 are usually on the 15 and 18 now, leaving the X39 with whatever can be sourced from the rest of the Depot. Granted, there are some deckers, but otherwise almost anything can go on it. Apparently a Solo was spotted on it last week

When our Park & Ride Geminis were replaced in the Autumn, many within the company - right up to senior level - believed that they would be cascaded onto the X39 at a reduced frequency of every 15 minutes. Instead, they wandered of to Bristol and Super Mud, leaving us with the X39 unchanged. To make matters worse, they have cut its running time and thus the PVR by one - when the route was already seriously vulnerable to delays...

We can only hope that the E300s are up to the job, that the PVR is returned to eleven as it should be - and that they are happy to continue the use of deckers as and when they should be needed.

And that they learn a thing or two about allocations.

 

[90sWereBetter]

I suppose the larger than normal order for single deckers might have something to do with making inroads into the large fleet of SLF, but non DDA Darts from 1996-1999 that remain in service. From the ones down here with Eastern Counties, I can conclude that most of these are absolutely clapped out, fit only for the scrappers.

With all those Olympic Fleet and ex-London deckers now in service, there's much less need to order large amounts of deckers this year, what with only a few hundred Olympians left in use.

 

[overthewater]

If anyone would like to see clapped out single deckers and darts go visit any First Scotland east area expect the Scottish Borders

 

[tbtc]

A lot of journeys at the moment are double deck, primarily to allow the route extra capacity during the peak (even they are full-and-standing sometimes) - because apparently even 5bph isn't enough. But it is a single-deck route as standard for reasons that are about as sensible as the much-maligned withdrawal of Service 8 last year (see the last paragraph of this post). Worse, the B7s ordered for it in 2004 are usually on the 15 and 18 now, leaving the X39 with whatever can be sourced from the rest of the Depot. Granted, there are some deckers, but otherwise almost anything can go on it. Apparently a Solo was spotted on it last week

When our Park & Ride Geminis were replaced in the Autumn, many within the company - right up to senior level - believed that they would be cascaded onto the X39 at a reduced frequency of every 15 minutes. Instead, they wandered of to Bristol and Super Mud, leaving us with the X39 unchanged. To make matters worse, they have cut its running time and thus the PVR by one - when the route was already seriously vulnerable to delays...

We can only hope that the E300s are up to the job, that the PVR is returned to eleven as it should be - and that they are happy to continue the use of deckers as and when they should be needed.

And that they learn a thing or two about allocations.

Interesting stuff, cheers

I suppose the larger than normal order for single deckers might have something to do with making inroads into the large fleet of SLF, but non DDA Darts from 1996-1999 that remain in service. From the ones down here with Eastern Counties, I can conclude that most of these are absolutely clapped out, fit only for the scrappers.

With all those Olympic Fleet and ex-London deckers now in service, there's much less need to order large amounts of deckers this year, what with only a few hundred Olympians left in use.

That's a fair point - the "old single deckers" are probably more of a pressing issue than the "old double deckers".

If there are large numbers of ten year old double deckers leaving London in the next year or two then fair enough I suppose.

 

[overthewater]

Interesting stuff, cheers


If there are large numbers of ten year old double deckers leaving London in the next year or two then fair enough I suppose.

then those deckers only have 5 years left and then what happens in 5 years time when there have alot of 15 year old buses?

but first do need single deckers and alot of them, I still think sell off depot to reduced the fleet will also help this.

 

[alienined]

Don't think First Scotland East is, even the oldies are getting a make over, and I don't mean the drivers!

 

[markie73]

If anyone would like to see clapped out single deckers and darts go visit any First Scotland east area expect the Scottish Borders

A visit to First Northampton is a must for clapped out single deckers as well!:eek:

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/mergers/Mergers_Cases/2013/FirstGroup

FirstGroup / Glenvale Transport



Invitation to comment:



Informal submission

Completed acquisition by Glenvale Transport Limited, a wholly owned subsidiary of Stagecoach Plc of the assets and business operating out of the Birkenhead, Chester and Wrexham depots of FirstGroup plc - issued 15 February 2013

The Office of Fair Trading is considering whether this agreement has resulted in the creation of a relevant merger situation under the merger provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002 and, if so, whether the creation of that situation has resulted, or may be expected to result, in a substantial lessening of competition within any market or markets in the United Kingdom for goods or services.

Affected sector: buses

Please send written representations about any competition or public interest issues to:

Peter Swan
Office of Fair Trading
Fleetbank House
2-6 Salisbury Square
London EC4Y 8JX
Email: peter.swan@oft.gsi.gov.uk
Fax: 020 7211 8916

to arrive by 1 March 2013
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's an average cost of £163,793.10 per new vehicle, which made me think that there must be a lot of double deckers, but...



...but 90% of the order is for single deckers - which makes me think that these buses are either *very* high spec, or the price of new vehicles really has gone up a lot in recent years.

This relates to the new first bus orders

The full breakdown is shown below:-

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=7477&categoryid=0

ADL and Wrightbus win lightweight orders




First, which has long called on manufacturers to produce lighter, more fuel-efficient, buses has placed significant orders with ADL and Wrightbus for Enviro300s and StreetLites. First has in recent years bought heavy-duty 18-tonne single-deckers, mainly from Volvo.

This week's £76million order announcement, for 464 buses, includes 142 Enviro300s and 179 StreetLites. Add 36 Enviro200s and 18 Optare Versas, and 90 per cent of the new single-deckers on order are in the sub-14-tonne class. The only heavy-duty single-deckers are 35 Wrightbus-bodied Volvo B7RLEs and two Volvo 7900 hybrids. These follow 29 hybrid 7900s ordered 12 months ago, and due to enter service next month.
The big winner is ADL, a company which under First's previous management did comparatively little business with the group. ADL will supply 222 vehicles, having secured the only double-deck business, 42 Enviro400s, plus two Plaxton Panther coaches. The Enviro300 order is the biggest placed for ADL's mid-weight single-decker.

Similarly, the StreetLite order is the biggest yet placed for the Wrightbus midi. The mix of specifications for the StreetLites has to be decided.

 

[winston270twm]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This relates to the new first bus orders

The full breakdown is shown below:-

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=7477&categoryid=0

ADL and Wrightbus win lightweight orders




First, which has long called on manufacturers to produce lighter, more fuel-efficient, buses has placed significant orders with ADL and Wrightbus for Enviro300s and StreetLites. First has in recent years bought heavy-duty 18-tonne single-deckers, mainly from Volvo.

This week's £76million order announcement, for 464 buses, includes 142 Enviro300s and 179 StreetLites. Add 36 Enviro200s and 18 Optare Versas, and 90 per cent of the new single-deckers on order are in the sub-14-tonne class. The only heavy-duty single-deckers are 35 Wrightbus-bodied Volvo B7RLEs and two Volvo 7900 hybrids. These follow 29 hybrid 7900s ordered 12 months ago, and due to enter service next month.
The big winner is ADL, a company which under First's previous management did comparatively little business with the group. ADL will supply 222 vehicles, having secured the only double-deck business, 42 Enviro400s, plus two Plaxton Panther coaches. The Enviro300 order is the biggest placed for ADL's mid-weight single-decker.

Similarly, the StreetLite order is the biggest yet placed for the Wrightbus midi. The mix of specifications for the StreetLites has to be decided.

The order for 179 Streetlites is quite a vote of confidence, there seems to be mixed reports on their performance from other operators which have taken delivery of them.

 

[WatcherZero]

Was talking to a TfGM officer yesterday and he said the main reason they were promoting Leigh-Bolton route as a Voluntary Partnership rather than Quality Contract is because First have informally told they they would walk away from the route if it was made a QBC as they dont have the cash to update the fleet to QBC standards.

 

[winston270twm]

Is it me, or have all the various sale/disposal rumours gone mysteriously quiet again?

 

[radamfi]

Was talking to a TfGM officer yesterday and he said the main reason they were promoting Leigh-Bolton route as a Voluntary Partnership rather than Quality Contract is because First have informally told they they would walk away from the route if it was made a QBC as they dont have the cash to update the fleet to QBC standards.

I presume you mean Quality Bus Corridor as the term Quality Contract is reserved for the franchising of bus services as proposed by WY Metro.

 

[Volvodart]

Is it me, or have all the various sale/disposal rumours gone mysteriously quiet again?

There is talk on another forum today that they are to sell all their London operations to meet the disposal target.

 

[Blindtraveler]

interesting news Re the bus orders. I dont like ADL and it will be interesting to see how these do given there past records on fleet upkeep.

 

[tbtc]

interesting news Re the bus orders. I dont like ADL and it will be interesting to see how these do given there past records on fleet upkeep.

The odd thing about the ADL order is that the FirstGroup fleet was just starting to look fairly "standard" (weeding out the muddle of inherited vehicles from when they went on a buying spree in the '90s and replacing them with orders for Wright/ Volvo vehicles).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is talk on another forum today that they are to sell all their London operations to meet the disposal target.

If they are serious about those sums of money then it'll need to be something "meaty".

Selling London would mean an end to the frustrating policy of concentrating almost all new vehicle orders there (and the rest of the UK relying on scraps).

But if it meant that other cities couldn't be fed ten year old double deckers then they may need to actually buy new ones for the likes of Sheffield... I wouldn't complain!

 

[winston270twm]

There is talk on another forum today that they are to sell all their London operations to meet the disposal target.

If that is the case I think NX group may well be interested in a London operation of that size, part of the reason they sold their own London operation to Abellio was that if didn't have the scale without significant investment / tender wins, at the time NX were in a mess themselves.... That said First would lose the supply of midlife cascades which have proved useful

Another one to throw in to the mix, a post has appeared on the GM buses yahoo group suggesting that Stagecoach have now offered First £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Selling London would mean an end to the frustrating policy of concentrating almost all new vehicle orders there (and the rest of the UK relying on scraps).

First have only concentrated the large numbers of new vehicles in London to meet the Tfl contract requirements on new & renewed tenders. had this not been a requirement I very much doubt First would have ordered so many new buses

 

[radamfi]

There is a rumour on the GM Buses Yahoo group that Stagecoach have offered £36.2 million for the Bolton and Bury depots. That would complete the purchase of the entire 'West' division of First Manchester, leaving the more profitable 'East' division of Oldham and Queen's Road depots with First, along with First Pennine.

Of course, take this with an ENORMOUS pinch of salt. I just thought I would mention it in case it is actually true. And it doesn't sound that unrealistic as it should be reasonably OFT friendly.

 

[KendalKing]

Another one to throw in to the mix, a post has appeared on the GM buses yahoo group suggesting that Stagecoach have now offered First £36.2 million to buy their Bolton & Bury operations.......

The OFT and CC, would not allow this, as Stagecoach would then have a monopoly in the area.

 

[radamfi]

The OFT and CC, would not allow this, as Stagecoach would then have a monopoly in the area.

Firstly, Arriva, South Lancs Travel and Rossendale have a signficant presence in those areas.

Secondly, they would have no more of a monopoly than First do at the moment.

 

[Volvodart]

You would have thought that Stagecoach would have waited for the results of the existing OFT business before they would make any more acquisitions.

 

[tamesidedepot]

Firstly, Arriva, South Lancs Travel and Rossendale have a signficant presence in those areas.

Secondly, they would have no more of a monopoly than First do at the moment.

I would guess there would be less of a monopoly as QS will still have routes in to at least Bury and QS and OM into Rochdale

 

[tbtc]

First have only concentrated the large numbers of new vehicles in London to meet the Tfl contract requirements on new & renewed tenders. had this not been a requirement I very much doubt First would have ordered so many new buses

I admit that this is based on a hunch rather than figures, but First seem to have relied a lot more on "buying new buses for London and cascading older ones to the rest of the UK" than other main operators.

Okay, Stagecoach were without London operations for a few years, but they seem to have introduced more new buses to "provincial" operations than the average "provincial" First company. Maybe this is because Stagecoach sell on ten/ twelve/ fifteen year old buses and don't just run them into the ground.

There is a rumour on the GM Buses Yahoo group that Stagecoach have offered £36.2 million for the Bolton and Bury depots. That would complete the purchase of the entire 'West' division of First Manchester, leaving the more profitable 'East' division of Oldham and Queen's Road depots with First, along with First Pennine.

Of course, take this with an ENORMOUS pinch of salt. I just thought I would mention it in case it is actually true. And it doesn't sound that unrealistic as it should be reasonably OFT friendly.

If the Wirral/ Chester operations are worth the OFT sticking their nose in then the Bolton ones (with Stagecoach running on the Chorley corridor are guaranteed to require investigation).