First Group: General Discussion

[Blindtraveler]

cant see anything coming from this myself

 

[overthewater]

Here is first one of the new year, has it really been 4 weeks? and 10 pages? Not much has change expect that rumor about FSE:

First in Northampton:
* betting withdrawn: For it to close down,
* 7/1: For the Depot to be sold off or with Leicester -

First Edinburgh
As it stands, there has been some strong talk that a number of interested parities are sniffing around, of course this could mean nothing but with this information
* Livingston EVANS:
* Musselburgh:, 10/11
* Livingston and Muss sold off together: 13/8
* Stirling 100/30 ( this odd is between 3/1 and 4/1)
* Scottish borders: 50/1
* Larbart and Stirling: 125/1

London Depot
Go ahead has said it would like to get increase it operations in London but could winning contract be the better option? stagecoach was also suppose to be during Dagenham depot but pulled out over the price. London depot would make a better choice to get rid as it could pull in another £10million easily

* Any London Depot 9/4

Redditch and Kidderminster
No new ticket machines?

* 12/5 for a Sell off- changed

First Cornwall
Its been a rather bumpy ride this year, after its gain new council work etc, but strikes and continuing loses are not helping, but who would want to buy it
Or could it just lose its council work and just stuck to its pure core work?

* 11/4 for a Sell off - Changed

First Ipswich
Not big depot but after looking at the Fleet list and some of the recent service changes this could be classed as another underdog depot. Alot of P and R reg stock, nothing that stands out as a cash cow bar the park N ride which could be lost. How much will it cost to replace alot of the fleet even with T, X, reg which is also needed else where?

* 11/4 for a sell off - changed

First Berkshire There has been some talk about the operations around this company. Important facts, its first biggest profit company. The fleet is now not as bad as other place above or even below, while the routes do use older stock could it be another Wigan area? I have doubts since new stock keeps appearing and its been said NEW stock is on the way shortly which should kill off S & T reg buses. Dart 52 plate from London could be drafted in to replace older X reg darts. Unless someone else knows anything else? BUT just this week a solo was repainted in the new livery. Main reason why this is higher then Leicester? because it has older stock and will soon need replacing.

* 3/1 : Sell Off

First Leicester
Fleet is 100% DDA, the network is suppose to be doing great, why waste time, money and effort on a place which does not need it? Many places higher up in this list which needs first attention. But if the above cant make the full amount then something else has to go, and what better than a smaller network which is shared with someone else?

* 4/1: Sell Off

Irish Aircoach

* 5/1

First Glasgow No2:
DO NOT GET THIS MIXED up with FiG no1 which covers must of inner Glasgow, FiG no2 cover Dumbarton, Cumbernauld, Blntyre, Overtown.

http://www.tas.uk.net/content/index.php/news/98-bimperformance2012
Biggest loss-makers - Islwyn Borough Transport (20.2%) and East London Bus & Coach (11.9%), with First following with its Devon & Cornwall company on 9.3% and Glasgow No 2 business on 7.3%.

It should be point out and made clear, Dumbarton has been give 40 brand new buses. So its Lanarkshire that the trouble, in September a number of cut backs were put in place, but a new name was introduced. but with losses like that in SUCH what should be a great bus area is strange. First has already shut North Devon down to get rid of the loses......

* Any Depot BAR Dumbarton to be sold 9/1 - CHANGE

Fun:
* First York: 50/1
* Aberdeen 100/1
* Manchester , Yorkshire, Glasgow No1 : 200/
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Has anything new appeared with Redditch and Kidderminster. Have there been give the new ticket machines yet?
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The Rumor about south wales has popped back up? I cant believe it, I makes no sence unless someone has any more background details?

 

[anthony263]

Considieirng the recent investment in the south wales Greyhound service I think First may have decided to keep the south wales operations for now.

That said they could decide to sell their outstation at Carmarthen and the Llanelli depot

 

[Sandy Drew]

First South Wales financials for the last financial year looked pretty good (they were posting a decent pre-tax profit).

The biggest financial drag (losses) appears to be coming from First Scotland East Ltd, First Devon & Cornwall Ltd and First Glasgow (No2) Ltd, who all reported significant pre-tax loss in the last financial reporting.

But suppose profit isn't really the only indicator, given that Wigan and Chester/Wirral operations were sold, even though they were in profit!

Completely unrelated note - above it mentions poor performance from Islwyn Borough Transport. In the last financials they turned a £400k operating loss into just-shy £1m operating profit in the last financial year.

 

[overthewater]

First South Wales financials for the last financial year looked pretty good (they were posting a decent pre-tax profit).

The biggest financial drag (losses) appears to be coming from First Scotland East Ltd, First Devon & Cornwall Ltd and First Glasgow (No2) Ltd, who all reported significant pre-tax loss in the last financial reporting.

But suppose profit isn't really the only indicator, given that Wigan and Chester/Wirral operations were sold, even though they were in profit!

But Wigan only had big profits because of its lack of investment in the fleet and the justifications for buying alot would destroy the big profits, while Chester, was in the same boat.

Is the fleet in south wales in decent state?

 

[F Great Eastern]

The First Aircoach (Last Passive Ltd) accounts are expected to be published this month, so you'll get a good idea then of what is going on here and if it's improved or got worse since the previous years.

 

[anthony263]

But Wigan only had big profits because of its lack of investment in the fleet and the justifications for buying alot would destroy the big profits, while Chester, was in the same boat.

Is the fleet in south wales in decent state?

Yes actually south wales seems to have a pretty good fleet including those low floor volvo's we nicked from Bath which were used on service X63 Swansea - Brecon before the new contract was awarded to New Adventure Travel.

These Volvo's are currently used on service 158 Swansea - Banwen.

South wales is expected to be receiving some brand new vehicles soon with a good few going to Port Talbot.

The step entrance darts that were at Llanelli have now been transfered to the Port Talbot depot and can be found on a wide variety of routes including on one of first cymru's flagship routes the X1 between Bridgend & Swansea/Neath.

I think some of the new vehicles for south wales could be for the extended greyhound service.

 

[WatcherZero]

But Wigan only had big profits because of its lack of investment in the fleet and the justifications for buying alot would destroy the big profits, while Chester, was in the same boat.

Is the fleet in south wales in decent state?

A large investment in brand new fleet and at the same time lowering fares significantly doesnt really indicate a low margin business only profitable because of a lack of investment and rotating older stock.

 

[F Great Eastern]

From what I heard the extended Greyhound service will be operated using the ex South Coast Greyhound vehicles.

 

[overthewater]

There is a very strong rumours around that an operation is about to be announced as sold to a European bidder.

A: who is the bidder?
B: what company?

is it crap?

 

[robertclark125]

Arriva is owned by a european firm. RATP owns London United and Yellow Buses. They're French. There's two for you.

 

[bluenoxid]

There is a very strong rumours around that an operation is about to be announced as sold to a European bidder.

A: who is the bidder?
B: what company?

is it crap?

Depends on what the business is and how bad the operation is but I assume this is about buses and not waste.

 

[tbtc]

There is a very strong rumours around that an operation is about to be announced as sold to a European bidder

Where?

There are all sorts of daft rumours on the internet - remember someone confidently saying that Northampton had been bought by Uno earlier in this thread?

You're going to have to give us more than this...

 

[overthewater]

I have NO Idea, thats why im asking. I have to ask what other daft rumors have your heard?

 

[markie73]

Where?

There are all sorts of daft rumours on the internet - remember someone confidently saying that Northampton had been bought by Uno earlier in this thread?

You're going to have to give us more than this...

Uno was supposed to have been taking several of First Northampton's routes NOT the entire Northampton operation but nothing ever became of that, several people have posted comments on Flickr saying that First Northampton was going to be part of Uno and an announcement was due 'shortly' this was months ago!!.

Seriously though I hope that something is officialy announced by First regarding Northampton and soon, its been dragging on and on for ages now.

 

[A0]

Uno was supposed to have been taking several of First Northampton's routes NOT the entire Northampton operation but nothing ever became of that, several people have posted comments on Flickr saying that First Northampton was going to be part of Uno and an announcement was due 'shortly' this was months ago!!.

I have to say I'm with 'tbtc' on this one - there is alot of rumour-mongering and ill informed speculation put on these and other boards, masquerading as fact.

Perhaps if people actually substantiated their postings with evidence or prefaced them with 'in my opinion' or similar it would help as we could then separate fact from ill informed speculation being passed off as fact.

Seriously though I hope that something is officialy announced by First regarding Northampton and soon, its been dragging on and on for ages now.

Does it really matter? First will decide when they're good and ready what they're doing with the Northampton operation - in the meantime services are still being run, passengers are still being carried to their destinations. The only people it is causing an issue to are First's employees who are probably going through a period of uncertainty - unless you're one of them, I fail to see why it's an issue for you.
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I have NO Idea, thats why im asking. I have to ask what other daft rumors have your heard?

I think the point which 'tbtc' was making is that you posted "There is a very strong rumours around that an operation is about to be announced as sold to a European bidder."

So where are you getting your information from ?

Perhaps links to whichever forums you've read would be a start.

 

[overthewater]

Are right I got you now: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=15928016&postID=8148654091507990579

Clear as mud, There does seem to be some spin on some of the stuff going around. Of course some of the rumors I just wont aspect, such as South Wales, nor that Stirling depot at the weekend. Of course something HAS to be raised if there want that £100m.

Has Redditch been given there new ticket machines yet ?

 

[DunsBus]

This has just appeared on Scotlandbus courtesy of 'bn62312':

"An announcement concerning the remaining First Edinburgh operations is supposedly due to be made tomorrow, Friday 18th. From what we understand at least, a meeting has been scheduled for tonight to inform senior management. No concrete details at present."

So it looks like the axe is going to fall - but where?

 

[tbtc]

I have NO Idea, thats why im asking. I have to ask what other daft rumors have your heard?

Just listing rumours is meaningless though, unless you are going to give a source (I could give you a thousand rumours but it means nothing unless you know the source to judge them on)

I have to say I'm with 'tbtc' on this one - there is alot of rumour-mongering and ill informed speculation put on these and other boards, masquerading as fact.

Perhaps if people actually substantiated their postings with evidence or prefaced them with 'in my opinion' or similar it would help as we could then separate fact from ill informed speculation being passed off as fact.

I think the point which 'tbtc' was making is that you posted "There is a very strong rumours around that an operation is about to be announced as sold to a European bidder."

So where are you getting your information from ?

Perhaps links to whichever forums you've read would be a start.

Thank you

This has just appeared on Scotlandbus courtesy of 'bn62312':

"An announcement concerning the remaining First Edinburgh operations is supposedly due to be made tomorrow, Friday 18th. From what we understand at least, a meeting has been scheduled for tonight to inform senior management. No concrete details at present."

So it looks like the axe is going to fall - but where?

That's the kind of information that I like - which lets people see the source and make their minds up

The move of Geminis from Glasgow to the Borders (the 53 plate ex Sheffield buses) suggests that things are relatively healthy in that neck of the woods.

The "rump" in East Lothian is a stand alone operation - whereas the Livingston/ Falkirk/ Stirling operations may be slightly harder to pick apart.

 

[DunsBus]

Just listing rumours is meaningless though, unless you are going to give a source (I could give you a thousand rumours but it means nothing unless you know the source to judge them on)



Thank you



That's the kind of information that I like - which lets people see the source and make their minds up

The move of Geminis from Glasgow to the Borders (the 53 plate ex Sheffield buses) suggests that things are relatively healthy in that neck of the woods.

The "rump" in East Lothian is a stand alone operation - whereas the Livingston/ Falkirk/ Stirling operations may be slightly harder to pick apart.

The Borders is also in the process of receiving a batch of 10 new Enviro 300s. Although chiefly meant for the X95 service between Edinburgh and Carlisle, one of them is on my local service, the 60 between Galashiels, Duns and Berwick, today. I doubt that Gala would have received the E300s if it had been due to be sold.

The East Lothian operations, on the other hand, were scaled back last summer at the same time as Dalkeith depot was closed. The resultant rump did initially turn in a profit but is now reportedly back in the red. If the East Lothian rump goes, I'd expect East Lothian Buses (Lothian's country offshoot) to pick up the main road work.

 

[overthewater]

Livingston depot, is a basket case. With shortages and other issues.

Falkirk and borders should be safe as houses. If there go then the company nor first had a plan.....

 

[DunsBus]

Livingston depot, is a basket case. With shortages and other issues.

Falkirk and borders should be safe as houses. If there go then the company nor first had a plan.....

In your opinion it's a basket case - First may think otherwise...

 

[Blindtraveler]

As a regular user of many of the East Lothian runs I can well understand why they are suffering. i can quite easilly see them going and wonder why they have held on so long. There have however been a few clews it may be suffering, some promised cascades havnt come and drivers seam quite low

 

[DunsBus]

All kinds of weird and wonderful guesses doing the rounds on Scotlandbus tonight.

Rumour no 1: Stagecoach getting Balfron, Bannockburn, Larbert and Livingston.

Rumour no 2: Lothian getting Livingston, East Lothian Buses getting Musselburgh and North Berwick.

Rumour no 3: Stagecoach getting Balfron and Bannockburn, Falkirk to become part of First Glasgow, National Express to get Livingston, East Lothian Buses to get Musselburgh and North Berwick, Stagecoach to get Gala(!).

I think the only certainty in that lot is that no-one knows for sure...

 

[robertclark125]

I was speaking to a friend tonight, on MSN, who claims he got told by a friend at Bannockburn depot that what has been described in rumour one is the case. Having bought a large chunk of operations recently, and replaced First operations in another town, I'm not sure that Stagecoach would buy the lot.

He also claimed that there were to be exchanges of certain routes, such as the X37 staying with First. But, until we hear, no one knows.

 

[DunsBus]

I was speaking to a friend tonight, on MSN, who claims he got told by a friend at Bannockburn depot that what has been described in rumour one is the case. Having bought a large chunk of operations recently, and replaced First operations in another town, I'm not sure that Stagecoach would buy the lot.

He also claimed that there were to be exchanges of certain routes, such as the X37 staying with First. But, until we hear, no one knows.

Operationally it would make sense - a bolt-on to the Fife operations and possibly a base closer to home (in the case of Livingston) from which to run the Edinburgh-Biggar service.

 

[tbtc]

As a regular user of many of the East Lothian runs I can well understand why they are suffering. i can quite easilly see them going and wonder why they have held on so long

The proper East Lothian services (i.e. ignoring the Mussleburgh/ Wallyford/ Tranent areas which are basically part of "Greater Edinburgh" these days) are an interesting set of routes.

You could argue that the dualling of the A1 all the way to Dunbar, the growth in "out of town" shopping at Newcraighall/ The Jewel (compared to the decline of Portobello/ Mussleburgh) and the growth of Edinburgh as an employment area would have been a reason to grow the business.

First seemed to make few changes though, I don't know if the ScotRail franchise was the reason why they couldn't make many alterations or whether they just daren't risk any big changes.

But having kept the North Berwick/ Haddington/ Dunbar services (after getting rid of the Mussleburgh/ Dalkeith area stuff), I wondered whether this was "one last chance" or they really did have some big plans.
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I was speaking to a friend tonight, on MSN, who claims he got told by a friend at Bannockburn depot that what has been described in rumour one is the case

Having seen the jointly operated services from Fife to "Stirlingshire" cut/ split in recent years (14, 23...), I wonder whether a Stagecoach operated Bannockburn could see a revival of such services.

Whilst rail has got a grip of the Alloa - Glasgow market (so no chance of bringing back the old X18!), could there be any scope in running some journeys on the 23 to Glasgow as used to happen in SBG days?

Looking at how the Stagecoach Express services have transformed services in Fife, what about Stagecoach taking over the Citylink 909, extensions to Callander?

This would mean that virtually all of the traditional Alexander operations were back under one brand (Midland, Fife, Northern). Plus ca change...

 

[robertclark125]

The decision by First to withdraw from joint operation of the 14 and 23 took place in 2004. As a consequence, Stagecoach Fife took over the ex First duties on route 23 (St. Andrews - Stirling), and now use leather seated E300s, replacing coaches. The 78 (Dunfermline - High Valleyfield) was extended to Stirling every hour as a replacement for the 14.

If rumour one is true, what's the bet that the 6 vehicle duties from Larbert depot, for the services from Cairneyhill and Newmills to Dunfermline, Queen Anne High School, revert back to Rennies ASAP?

 

[overthewater]

I don't believe Stagecoach would be allowed to have all the depots, it would mean from the Top of Scotland - Central belt is all stagecoach. Bar Dundee, covering largest area in the UK.

 

[DunsBus]

The proper East Lothian services (i.e. ignoring the Mussleburgh/ Wallyford/ Tranent areas which are basically part of "Greater Edinburgh" these days) are an interesting set of routes.

You could argue that the dualling of the A1 all the way to Dunbar, the growth in "out of town" shopping at Newcraighall/ The Jewel (compared to the decline of Portobello/ Mussleburgh) and the growth of Edinburgh as an employment area would have been a reason to grow the business.

First seemed to make few changes though, I don't know if the ScotRail franchise was the reason why they couldn't make many alterations or whether they just daren't risk any big changes.

But having kept the North Berwick/ Haddington/ Dunbar services (after getting rid of the Mussleburgh/ Dalkeith area stuff), I wondered whether this was "one last chance" or they really did have some big plans.

My understanding was that Musselburgh & North Berwick were put on three months' notice after Dalkeith closed and if they hadn't shown a profit by the end of September then they'd be next in line for closure.