First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

It still would not help First cut cost will it? 3 or 4 of the depots/areas which are likely places to be sold off are in the red and need alot of spare money being spent on them. First may will have to spend another £100million just trying to get those places up to decent standard.

 

[MCW]

Strange that Stagecoach haven't shown an interest in Leicester, considering that it could be a strategic buy and links up with both the Northampton and Warwickshire operations.

If EYMS bought it, I would love to see massive "East Yorkshire" lettering on the garage gates at Abbey Lane.

yeah but perhaps stagecoach are being wise mate and are not showing intentions just yet.

if anyone was to buy the operation there it would either be stagecoach or centrebus..... if they had the money....

 

[bb21]

Though they did used to have a small prescence there - some of the United Counties buses from Milton Keynes to Peterborough used to continue to Leicester - with a couple a day carrying on to Nottingham (X61?)

Yes, United Counties X61 Oxford - Nottingham.

yeah but perhaps stagecoach are being wise mate and are not showing intentions just yet.

That is certainly one possibility.

 

[MK Tom]

I highly doubt Stagecoach would be allowed to buy Leicester given the sheer geographic coverage it would give them. The whole of Warwks, Leics, Northants, Cambs, half of Beds, whole of Oxon.

 

[bb21]

I highly doubt Stagecoach would be allowed to buy Leicester given the sheer geographic coverage it would give them. The whole of Warwks, Leics, Northants, Cambs, half of Beds, whole of Oxon.

But First's Leicester network consists entirely of routes within the city area, and they are a long way behind Arriva who operates the majority of routes in the city and into the county. Centrebus also has a significant presence so there is unlikely to be a reduction in competition.

In fact, if Stagecoach bought First's operation in Leicester, I can see competition intensifying along a few corridors, starting with the two where they already compete.

 

[MCW]

But First's Leicester network consists entirely of routes within the city area, and they are a long way behind Arriva who operates the majority of routes in the city and into the county. Centrebus also has a significant presence so there is unlikely to be a reduction in competition.

In fact, if Stagecoach bought First's operation in Leicester, I can see competition intensifying along a few corridors, starting with the two where they already compete.

along with the Aylestone and and Loughborough corridors

 

[overthewater]

Why is it everyone believe it will be stagecoach that will end up buying everything form First? I think the dark horse will be Go ahead.....

 

[tbtc]

Why is it everyone believe it will be stagecoach that will end up buying everything form First? I think the dark horse will be Go ahead.....

Because...

• Devon (Stagecoach tried to buy, ended up taking over the remnants when First abandoned town)
• Wirral (Stagecoach took over)
• Chester (Stagecoach took over)
• Wigan (Stagecoach took over)

Go Ahead have been fairly quiet so far in comparison.

 

[overthewater]

Because...

• Devon (Stagecoach tried to buy, ended up taking over the remnants when First abandoned town)
• Wirral (Stagecoach took over)
• Chester (Stagecoach took over)
• Wigan (Stagecoach took over)

Go Ahead have been fairly quiet so far in comparison.

Of course maybe stagecoach wanted First pick of everything Go ahead may be looking into seing where the best returns could be made from an investments into new operations. I cant see how there could increase there profits without buy something new.

 

[MK Tom]

Stagecoach do have a long history of buying out unprofitable or barely profitable operations, sometimes at considerable expense, then turning them around afterwards. No operator does this in quite the same way, not even GoAhead, despite their recent expansion and increased investment. We shall see of course, but I really don't expect ''The Northampton Bus Company'' to come into being any time soon, as cool as that would be.

 

[overthewater]

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/watchdog-will-probe-plan-to-axe-bus-routes-109064n.19598502 More cuts on the way:

Watchdog will probe plan to axe bus routes

Stewart Paterson, Political Reporter

COMPETITION watchdogs are investigating a plan to withdraw some bus services in Glasgow.

First Bus wants to scrap the 64 service between Carmyle and the city centre and change the 19 Easterhouse to city centre route.

Plans to alter services between East Kilbride and Glasgow and from Airdrie to the city centre are also being looked at.

The Competition Commission is seeking evidence to ensure the proposed changes are in line with undertakings given by First when they took over the ScotRail franchise that it would not seek to use its monopoly in a way that had an adverse effect on passengers.

There were concerns that it could shift passengers for bus to rail, by stopping some bus routes.

First group said the routes run at a loss and wants to alter the undertakings it gave the commission to allow it to scrap the Easterhouse service and alter the other routes.

...

 

[markie73]

Devon (Stagecoach tried to buy, ended up taking over the remnants when First abandoned town)
Wirral (Stagecoach took over)
Chester (Stagecoach took over)
Wigan (Stagecoach took over)



Could Stagecoach do the same if First abandons/leaves Northampton?, I can see a pattern developing above though....

 

[MK Tom]

Devon (Stagecoach tried to buy, ended up taking over the remnants when First abandoned town)
Wirral (Stagecoach took over)
Chester (Stagecoach took over)
Wigan (Stagecoach took over)



Could Stagecoach do the same if First abandons/leaves Northampton?, I can see a pattern developing above though....

There's a lot of discussion on Stagecoach taking over former First routes if they do just cancel in Northy earlier in this thread. If First do that then their non-competition agreement with Stagecoach becomes invalid, and that agreement is the only reason Stagecoach aren't already running the 4/4A and 29/30 in competition with them. The worrying implication of that is that if First do successfully sell to anyone else Stagecoach will be in the position to do that to the new operator as they clearly have demonstrated a desire to run those routes in the past. The only reason that agreement exists is because SC tried to make a move on the 4/4A and 29/30 and First agreed to succeed them the Rugby service and a few others in return for a promise not to compete over the core First town routes (that's my understanding anyway).

 

[overthewater]

There's a lot of discussion on Stagecoach taking over former First routes if they do just cancel in Northy earlier in this thread. If First do that then their non-competition agreement with Stagecoach becomes invalid, and that agreement is the only reason Stagecoach aren't already running the 4/4A and 29/30 in competition with them. The worrying implication of that is that if First do successfully sell to anyone else Stagecoach will be in the position to do that to the new operator as they clearly have demonstrated a desire to run those routes in the past. The only reason that agreement exists is because SC tried to make a move on the 4/4A and 29/30 and First agreed to succeed them the Rugby service and a few others in return for a promise not to compete over the core First town routes (that's my understanding anyway).

I have a timetable for service 4U but I have lost the K9 one. never understood the deal with the dog for service to KINGS HEATH

 

[MK Tom]

I have a timetable for service 4U but I have lost the K9 one. never understood the deal with the dog for service to KINGS HEATH

It was a dog because then they could introduce a rover ticket

Incidentally were those the only First routes Stagecoach did that to or were there others too?

 

[markie73]

There's a lot of discussion on Stagecoach taking over former First routes if they do just cancel in Northy earlier in this thread. If First do that then their non-competition agreement with Stagecoach becomes invalid, and that agreement is the only reason Stagecoach aren't already running the 4/4A and 29/30 in competition with them. The worrying implication of that is that if First do successfully sell to anyone else Stagecoach will be in the position to do that to the new operator as they clearly have demonstrated a desire to run those routes in the past. The only reason that agreement exists is because SC tried to make a move on the 4/4A and 29/30 and First agreed to succeed them the Rugby service and a few others in return for a promise not to compete over the core First town routes (that's my understanding anyway).

I remember when Stagecoach operated the 4U back in 2004/2005, if I remember rightly it did not last long but I remember the 'war' between Stagecoach and First on this route!.

 

[overthewater]

It was a dog because then they could introduce a rover ticket

Incidentally were those the only First routes Stagecoach did that to or were there others too?

Yip those were the only two, I think there slashed the fares on the No2.

4U had pure advantage has it operated the early morning journey plus the Sunday service

 

[markie73]

Yip those were the only two, I think there slashed the fares on the No2.

4U had pure advantage has it operated the early morning journey plus the Sunday service

The 4U ran in direct competition with First Northampton's service 4, the 4U was discontinued apart from the weekday morning service and the old sunday service which First now try and run.........

 

[overthewater]

Interesting developmental:

Livingston has now been given its first repaints, Strangely there not Standard type buses in anyone fleet. http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisbridgman/

For all we know that Scania Omnidekka could be off to Muss, since it has been reported that nearly all the Scania Omnidekka are suppose to be leaving Livingston. No idea why the Citaro are being done since there off the road more often than not. The depot is still short using Coaches and tiny mini pointer darts on many routes including Edinburgh runs.

REPORT FROM YAHOO GROUPS: There are now a batch of E200s being delivered for First, there no clear details about how many in total, but so far seven are going to Bath (44520-26) and ten to Southampton (44527-36).

 

[winston270twm]

I'm not convinced that there will be many more First UK bus disposals during the next six months at least, loosing the WCML franchise has thrown a big spanner in the works...... Judging by the amount of time it has taken to raise what they have to date, it's pretty clear that the demand isn't really there for what's currently being offered for sale at the sale prices First want for the operations.

 

[Ivo]

REPORT FROM YAHOO GROUPS: There are now a batch of E200s being delivered for First, there no clear details about how many in total, but so far seven are going to Bath (44520-26) and ten to Southampton (44527-36).

Come on, I reported that over two weeks ago! One of them was out on "parade" duty yesterday.

I didn't know Southampton were getting some though.

 

[winston270twm]

I didn't know Southampton were getting some though.

3 of First Southampton's Enviro 200's @ Leyland:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gcbp/8253188260
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gcbp/8252118471
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gcbp/8252118633

 

[MCW]

hearing more gen locally (although Pinch of salt as usual folks)

Seems that Leicester is not in line to get the new livery and branding. This could mean something quite significant....

 

[overthewater]

hearing more gen locally (although Pinch of salt as usual folks)

Seems that Leicester is not in line to get the new livery and branding. This could mean something quite significant....

It depends the local manager could be waiting for new stock to appear before updating the livery? Falkirk and Glasgow was waited until new stock and overhauled network come in to operation. Saying that Livingston been given the new livery no idea why unless there planing to ship the buses out, which would not be surprising since Wigan never had the full fleet transfer.

What is the newest stock in Leicester?

 

[MCW]

It depends the local manager could be waiting for new stock to appear before updating the livery? Falkirk and Glasgow was waited until new stock and overhauled network come in to operation. Saying that Livingston been given the new livery no idea why unless there planing to ship the buses out, which would not be surprising since Wigan never had the full fleet transfer.

What is the newest stock in Leicester?

newest stock in leicester is the 05 reg single deck transfers incoming from Potteries!!!!

 

[overthewater]

newest stock in leicester is the 05 reg single deck transfers incoming from Potteries!!!!

How many 05 are there? what is the next newest stock after them? again how many? Cheers

 

[winston270twm]

hearing more gen locally (although Pinch of salt as usual folks)

Seems that Leicester is not in line to get the new livery and branding. This could mean something quite significant....

At the end of the day, any of the fleets which were possible favourites for being sold that are now receiving the new livery could still be sold yet if a suitable offer is forthcoming.....

Maybe selling Leicester, Northampton & all of Wyvern would make an interesting package / achieve a good sale price???
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many 05 are there? what is the next newest stock after them? again how many? Cheers

May have changed but I make it 14 x B7RLE 66962-66975,

The next newest are 54 plate Gemini's, 02 plate B7L then 51 plate B7TL/ALX400 & W plate ALX400. Leicester does at least have a 100% low floor fleet

 

[overthewater]

cheers for those details. I have to ask, what is the oldest fleet? if its above X or Y REG, then were sitting in a chance were it could just get by, if its alot older were heading for another wigan area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the end of the day, any of the fleets which were possible favourites for being sold that are now receiving the new livery could still be sold yet if a suitable offer is forthcoming.....

Maybe selling Leicester, Northampton & all of Wyvern would make an interesting package / achieve a good sale price???

Very true words!

 

[MCW]

cheers for those details. I have to ask, what is the oldest fleet? if its above X or Y REG, then were sitting in a chance were it could just get by, if its alot older were heading for another wigan area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Very true words!

oldest fleet as a whole has to be northampton at my guess but I know theres some places down south which have olympians knocking about.

 

[vicbury]

cheers for those details. I have to ask, what is the oldest fleet? if its above X or Y REG, then were sitting in a chance were it could just get by, if its alot older were heading for another wigan area.

Going by that, both Bristol and Bath ought to be for sale! Plenty of step entrance Darts still in operation round here as well as M-reg Lances, step-entrance Mercedes of various ages, and numerous low floor R and S-reg Darts (the S-reg ones such as this being particularly awful). Can't see either area being sold though.