First Group: General Discussion

[starrymarkb]

Actually there is nothing fire prone about Mercedes Citaros. Other vehicle types go on fire periodically with little or no publicity. Citaros wouldn't be used in such great numbers across Europe if they were unsafe, especially given they are not particularly cheap. Indeed, if any bus was to represent an iconic quality European bus it would the Citaro.

Indeed, it only seemed to be London Spec ones that were fire prone, which makes you wonder what TfL specced that other operators didn't... Also there was at least one Arson and one fire started due to rubbish in a heater - still it was the vehicles fault when reported in the 'Standard' which had a dislike for the Artic...

 

[mbonwick]

All models built around that time were vulnerable - but London was the place where they were most intensively used in large numbers, so that's where the fault showed up.

Mercedes issued a maintainence note that fuel pipes (?) were to be replaced with a new design ASAP, which most other places managed without taking vehicles off the road.

 

[tbtc]

Vehicles are included in the sale. The current Wigan fleet has been frozen by First to transfer over to Stagecoach, but Stagecoach are also preparing their own fleet of vehicles to immediately replace some of the First stock, I believe the 20 Optare Excel's (most don't have a wheelchair ramp), the 15 R reg Dart's (no wheelchair ramp) and Dennis Arrow's are for the chop almost immediately. 04reg Dart's from Western (Ayr), 55reg MAN ALX300's from East Scotland (Aberdeen) and 51reg MAN ALX300's from Cambridge have transferred/are transferring to Manchester to replace the elderly First stock.
I believe First vehicles will be used by Stagecoach in First livery to start with, with Stagecoach names replacing the removed First names, with vehicles being repainted into Stagecoach livery as and when it is possible to do so (would imagine it will take priority in Manchester's paintshops). On a takeover there's usually no immediate requirement to get every vehicle out of the previous owners livery straight away, it takes time to get them painted and should be something First have agreed to.

Not 100% sure on Chester & Wirral just yet, some Solo's have apparently moved from Chester to Oldham which could be a sign of a few small movements first, this would be agreed by Stagecoach though and considered in the price.

Thanks for the information

 

[markie73]

Apparently Northampton has been sold to Centrebus. Nice news.

I can't find nothing to confirm this, does anybody know anything more about the sale?.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

I can't find nothing to confirm this, does anybody know anything more about the sale?.

The sale was mentioned on another forum that I subscribe to

 

[Jeni]

The sale was mentioned on another forum that I subscribe to

It's been mentioned without a source on the midlandred.net forum, given half the rubbish rumours that come from a select few on there, I'd take it with a pinch of salt until officially confirmed!

 

[markie73]

The sale was mentioned on another forum that I subscribe to

Which one is that if you don't mind me asking I wouldn't mind having a look.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's been mentioned without a source on the midlandred.net forum, given half the rubbish rumours that come from a select few on there, I'd take it with a pinch of salt until officially confirmed!

Sounds like its got some truth to it though, I know that Centrebus have had talks a while back with First Northampton and given that Centrebus operate services in other parts of Northamptonshire and Leicester this would not suprise me.

 

[cainebj]

There's people on other forums who do just make things up though, or hear a rumour and take it as gospel truth. I've read on other forums that Wigan was definitely being bought by Rotala, and the sale of Chester & Birkenhead was called off, yet here we are a few weeks after those rumours with announcements for Stagecoach buying both of those areas. Until a real announcement is made, it is best to take things with a pinch of salt. Northampton was declared by First as an asset value sale only, hence the fleet being replaced with older, tired stock. The depot is leased and the services aren't running at a profitable level.

A list of fleetnumbers for the Wigan takeover is attached in Excel format. The Optare Excel's and R reg Dart's currently at Wigan are not included in the numbering as they're being replaced by other Stagecoach vehicles. Stagecoach vehicles transferring are 6 55reg MAN ALX300's from Stagecoach Bluebird, 8 06reg MAN ALX300's from East Scotland, 6 51reg MAN ALX300's from Cambridge, 8 T/V/Xreg Dart's from West Scotland and 9 04reg Darts from West Scotland (Ayr). Some of Manchester's own stored fleet will be used as well. I'd have thought this newer stock will go straight to Wigan, but I'm not sure.

 

[markie73]

Northampton was declared by First as an asset value sale only, hence the fleet being replaced with older, tired stock. The depot is leased and the services aren't running at a profitable level.
.

Thanks for the info, I did wonder what the reason was for the sudden fleet change, First used to own the depot but they sold it quite a while back but now lease it back, sounds like First wont get much for Northampton then?.

I'm in two minds what to believe but my own feeling is that IF a buyer has not been found then they will de-register the services and pull the plug on their Northampton operation.

Services have not been making a profit for ages so nothing new there then!

 

[BuhSnarf]

If it's assets only then a sale to Centrebus is not too far fetched as they do have a habit of buying old crap vehicles for cheap. And then running it in to the ground after a paint job.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[markie73]

If it's assets only then a sale to Centrebus is not too far fetched as they do have a habit of buying old crap vehicles for cheap. And then running it in to the ground after a paint job.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Well Centrebus have landed on their feet with this one then as there is plenty of crap in First Northampton's fleet now which is knackered!, mind you they will look nice when they are repainted though....

 

[overthewater]

Overthewater, can you give us some of the latest updated odds please?

At this moment of time the same odds still apply, Yes Chester did up up very slightly, this was for good reasons, also it been know to push up the odds to distract people from seeing a winner

BUT It seems something else is about to announced, No idea what that could be.... It could be anything, dont ask......

 

[tbtc]

Stagecoach vehicles transferring are 6 55reg MAN ALX300's from Stagecoach Bluebird, 8 06reg MAN ALX300's from East Scotland, 6 51reg MAN ALX300's from Cambridge, 8 T/V/Xreg Dart's from West Scotland and 9 04reg Darts from West Scotland (Ayr)

The "Taylink" ones displaced from St Andrews?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At this moment of time the same odds still apply, Yes Chester did up up very slightly, this was for good reasons, also it been know to push up the odds to distract people from seeing a winner

BUT It seems something else is about to announced, No idea what that could be.... It could be anything, dont ask......

There's enough information now to deal with the facts without all the "nudge nudge" stuff

 

[markie73]

At this moment of time the same odds still apply, Yes Chester did up up very slightly, this was for good reasons, also it been know to push up the odds to distract people from seeing a winner

BUT It seems something else is about to announced, No idea what that could be.... It could be anything, dont ask......

Its got to be First Northampton given the rumors floating about (Re: Centrebus,Stagecoach and Uno Bus), this has been dragging on now for ages.

 

[overthewater]

The "Taylink" ones displaced from St Andrews?

I heard some are being kept in fife/Dundee since there still plenty of S, R reg Alx300, but it could have all change

There's enough information now to deal with the facts without all the "nudge nudge" stuff

I know what you mean but It does seems since No one will confirm or deny something and few other have said, something else should be announced soon. ( I also go by the everything comes in threes )

 

[robertclark125]

The eight 06 plated Taylink, or rather ex taylink MAN 18.220s have been moved abot since the replacement Scanias came on stream. Two are still at st. Andrews, and I believe others are at Perth. With regards to them moving, it's going to depend upon what will replace them.

What's to say that an order, or part of an order for one area could be diverted to Wigan? When Stagecoach bought GM buses south back in 1995/6, 10 Volvo Olympians, of a batch of 22 due for Southdown, were diverted to GMS. So, there is that option. Same applies to Rock Ferry, and Chester.

 

[tbtc]

The eight 06 plated Taylink, or rather ex taylink MAN 18.220s have been moved abot since the replacement Scanias came on stream. Two are still at st. Andrews, and I believe others are at Perth. With regards to them moving, it's going to depend upon what will replace them.

What's to say that an order, or part of an order for one area could be diverted to Wigan? When Stagecoach bought GM buses south back in 1995/6, 10 Volvo Olympians, of a batch of 22 due for Southdown, were diverted to GMS. So, there is that option. Same applies to Rock Ferry, and Chester.

That's what concerns me. My local route in Sheffield is due nineteen Enviro 400H double deckers. It was due them eighteen months ago, but they were diverted to another Sheffield route. Now I'm hoping Stagecoach don't want to divert the latest batch to one of their newest garages to make a big splash about investment etc!

It took them a few years to integrate Yorkshire Traction's subsidiaries and filter out some of the cheap rubbish they inherited. At least First have a more "standard" vehicle policy than some of the Tracky stuff (plus Maybe etc).

Will the redundant Solos (etc) be sold on or scrapped? Anyone have a hunch?

 

[winston270twm]

There's people on other forums who do just make things up though, or hear a rumour and take it as gospel truth. I've read on other forums that Wigan was definitely being bought by Rotala, and the sale of Chester & Birkenhead was called off, yet here we are a few weeks after those rumours with announcements for Stagecoach buying both of those areas. Until a real announcement is made, it is best to take things with a pinch of salt. Northampton was declared by First as an asset value sale only, hence the fleet being replaced with older, tired stock. The depot is leased and the services aren't running at a profitable level.

The rumour regarding the sale of Chester & Birkenhead being called was made by an employee based at Rock Ferry depot and did seem to ring true with rumours that NX were close to/had agreed a deal to buy Kidderminster & Redditch depots, that sale had also been called off by one of the parties, it was not long after the contract for First to operate the WCML had been terminated. Rumours are good for creating discussion of forums, but as you say don't read too much in to them until anything is officially confirmed......

 

[mbonwick]

That's what concerns me. My local route in Sheffield is due nineteen Enviro 400H double deckers. It was due them eighteen months ago, but they were diverted to another Sheffield route. Now I'm hoping Stagecoach don't want to divert the latest batch to one of their newest garages to make a big splash about investment etc!

It took them a few years to integrate Yorkshire Traction's subsidiaries and filter out some of the cheap rubbish they inherited. At least First have a more "standard" vehicle policy than some of the Tracky stuff (plus Maybe etc).

Will the redundant Solos (etc) be sold on or scrapped? Anyone have a hunch?

The Yorkshire E400Hs won't get diverted - as they're partially paid for with GBF money, they have to go into service in Sheffield.
Remember also that Manchester are getting 40 E400Hs after Sheffield.

I'm not sure what Solos you're referring to going spare?

 

[robertclark125]

Another issue with diversions could be transfers. In this instance, one area may receive new buses, and the older ones, a few could be due for transfer elsewhere, but in a change of plan, get diverted to Wigan.

 

[tbtc]

I believe the 20 Optare Excel's (most don't have a wheelchair ramp), the 15 R reg Dart's (no wheelchair ramp) and Dennis Arrow's are for the chop almost immediately

Will the redundant Solos (etc) be sold on or scrapped? Anyone have a hunch?

I'm not sure what Solos you're referring to going spare?

Apologies - I was on about the Excels - got my Optare products mixed up (Excels, not Solos)- seeing the age of some of the "Midlands" fleet got me thinking that some of the "fifteen year old" buses spared in Wigan were still at least younger than those still running elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Another issue with diversions could be transfers. In this instance, one area may receive new buses, and the older ones, a few could be due for transfer elsewhere, but in a change of plan, get diverted to Wigan.

True - could put a spanner in some planned cascades elsewhere. May take a year or two until Stagecoach start placing larger orders of new buses to take their larger fleet size into account.

On the subject of Wigan - presumably there'll be a "gap" between the Stagecoach Wigan services and those Stagecoach routes radiating out of Manchester towards the south west etc filled by some First services?

 

[winston270twm]

Apologies - I was on about the Excels - got my Optare products mixed up (Excels, not Solos)- seeing the age of some of the "Midlands" fleet got me thinking that some of the "fifteen year old" buses spared in Wigan were still at least younger than those still running elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The two depots at First Wyvern that are currently thought to be up for sale (Kidderminster & Redditch) still operate a number of vehicles dating back to 1994-96 both step entrance & early low floor models on frontline services as follows:

67238/9/44/46/50 & 55 M238/9/44/46/50 & 55MRW Dennis Lance/Plaxton Verde
61013/6 N475/8JUG Dennis Lance/Plaxton Verde
42641 N341EUY Dennis Dart SLF/Plaxton Pointer
42402-6 P402-6MLA Dennis Dart SLF/Plaxton Pointer
67324 ODZ8924 Dennis Lance SLF/Wright Pathfinder (1994)

The current Northampton fleet is surprisingly somewhat more modern than those still being used above at Wyvern. At least Northampton it is all low floor with barbie interiors etc, the state that some of the Scania's are operating in is purely down to how they were received from First East England, despite the Wyvern vehicles above being older, they are far better turned out......

 

[northwichcat]

The rumour regarding the sale of Chester & Birkenhead being called was made by an employee based at Rock Ferry depot

It's now been confirmed that Glenvale Transport Limited (the registered company name for Stagecoach Merseyside) have purchased First Group's Chester and Wirral operations. The sale includes approx. 110 buses.

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/nort...eshire-and-north-wales.html?news_section=4158

 

[overthewater]

The two depots at First Wyvern that are currently thought to be up for sale (Kidderminster & Redditch) still operate a number of vehicles dating back to 1994-96 both step entrance & early low floor models on frontline services as follows:

67238/9/44/46/50 & 55 M238/9/44/46/50 & 55MRW Dennis Lance/Plaxton Verde
61013/6 N475/8JUG Dennis Lance/Plaxton Verde
42641 N341EUY Dennis Dart SLF/Plaxton Pointer
42402-6 P402-6MLA Dennis Dart SLF/Plaxton Pointer
67324 ODZ8924 Dennis Lance SLF/Wright Pathfinder (1994)

The current Northampton fleet is surprisingly somewhat more modern than those still being used above at Wyvern. At least Northampton it is all low floor with barbie interiors etc, the state that some of the Scania's are operating in is purely down to how they were received from First East England, despite the Wyvern vehicles above being older, they are far better turned out......

That that whats making me wonder how on earth these depots can be sold. If Northampton can't get a buyer, with is all low floor fleet etc and it does not go head to head with anyone else, what chance does Redditch has? with step entry buses and Rota chopping away at it aswell.... To fair there actually more chance of Redditch getting closed down than Northampton...

 

[Jeni]

That that whats making me wonder how on earth these depots can be sold. If Northampton can't get a buyer, with is all low floor fleet etc and it does not go head to head with anyone else, what chance does Redditch has? with step entry buses and Rota chopping away at it aswell.... To fair there actually more chance of Redditch getting closed down than Northampton...

I've been wondering recently why Rotala don't have another crack at serious competition in Redditch, now the First operations are fairly obviously up for sale, surely First would roll over comparatively easily?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

That that whats making me wonder how on earth these depots can be sold. If Northampton can't get a buyer, with is all low floor fleet etc and it does not go head to head with anyone else, what chance does Redditch has? with step entry buses and Rota chopping away at it aswell.... To fair there actually more chance of Redditch getting closed down than Northampton...

And leaving places like Webheath, Studley and others stranded

 

[tbtc]

The two depots at First Wyvern that are currently thought to be up for sale (Kidderminster & Redditch) still operate a number of vehicles dating back to 1994-96 both step entrance & early low floor models on frontline services as follows:

67238/9/44/46/50 & 55 M238/9/44/46/50 & 55MRW Dennis Lance/Plaxton Verde
61013/6 N475/8JUG Dennis Lance/Plaxton Verde
42641 N341EUY Dennis Dart SLF/Plaxton Pointer
42402-6 P402-6MLA Dennis Dart SLF/Plaxton Pointer
67324 ODZ8924 Dennis Lance SLF/Wright Pathfinder (1994)

The current Northampton fleet is surprisingly somewhat more modern than those still being used above at Wyvern. At least Northampton it is all low floor with barbie interiors etc, the state that some of the Scania's are operating in is purely down to how they were received from First East England, despite the Wyvern vehicles above being older, they are far better turned out......

Interesting, thanks. So for all the focus on Northampton getting the worst deal from First, there are older/ step entrance buses in use elsewhere?

Frustrating as that's the kind of area that Stagecoach seem to run fairly well (market towns, commuter service into the nearest city)

 

[winston270twm]

That that whats making me wonder how on earth these depots can be sold. If Northampton can't get a buyer, with is all low floor fleet etc and it does not go head to head with anyone else, what chance does Redditch has? with step entry buses and Rota chopping away at it aswell.... To fair there actually more chance of Redditch getting closed down than Northampton...

Redditch has a fairly modern fleet comprising 10 x London Tridents (T/V reg) & 19 ADL Enviro 300's (53 / 54 reg) plus possibly one former CentreWest Dennis Lance / Wright Pathfinder (1st low floor buses available).

It's Kidderminster that still run either step entrance Lances or very early low floor Darts, but despite their age they look in far better condition than the Scania's Northampton inherited recently.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've been wondering recently why Rotala don't have another crack at serious competition in Redditch, now the First operations are fairly obviously up for sale, surely First would roll over comparatively easily?

Rotala's Red Diamond operations have shrunk significantly since launching an offensive on First in Worcester & retreating...... Blue/Black Diamond have also reduced the new of commercial services operated against NXWM recently and have lost some Centro tendered work to Arriva's new West Midlands operation around 12 months ago. I doubt they'll expanding anytime soon, nor will they be able to buy First's Redditch operations

 

[tbtc]

Redditch has a fairly modern fleet comprising 10 x London Tridents (T/V reg) & 19 ADL Enviro 300's (53 / 54 reg)

The Enviro 300s must be fairly non-standard for First - shame they can't easily be swapped for the Geminis/ B10BLEs that Stagecoach is inheriting in Wigan

 

[Ivo]

67324 ODZ8924 Dennis Lance SLF/Wright Pathfinder (1994)

I wish that wasn't true but this would fit in perfectly well here - we have two more examples of this rubbish batch

And both were on my route yesterday :cry: