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First Group: General Discussion

Ivo

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* Who was out there slashing bus routes and pushing up fares? FIRST,
* Who was out there trying to cut conners and not spend any money on new buses? FIRST

* Who was out there not making ANY major cutback? Stagecoach
* Who continued to only increase fares once a year? Stagecoach
* Who continued to buy new buses? Stagecoach
* Who continued to see any noticeable mile reduction in there operation but infact so an increase? Stagecoach

Hold on a minute! This is way beyond reasonable.

This may be true in localised areas, but I can assure you that they aren't nearly as bad as you're making out! To give an example, back home neither big operator has invested for a while (apart from Arriva's purchase of 12 Versas which they actually paid next-to-nothing towards), yet while First have brought in countless ex-London Tridents, Arriva have downgraded their fleet to the point that a once-mighty double deck fleet now has precisely zero double deck vehicles in it. Meanwhile, one of those has jacked fares right up, while the other has encouraged the multi-operator stuff. Unsurprisingly, the good guys in this are FIRST.

Around here, First may be poor but they don't match your description at all.
 
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Statto

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My question in general is how can First get things so horribly wrong? Amongst people I speak to (mix of enthusiasts and non enthusiasts) the general view is that First are pretty (for want of a better word) rubbish.

Have they not considered taking a leaf out of other operators books? Stagecoach in principle seem to do quite well, and I don't think anyone doubts that they will run their recent First acquisitions a lot better than First have. I've never experienced Arriva, but from the outside looking in, they seem to do a half decent job.

Taking the cost aspect, they just seem to want to price people off buses, it's almost as if they don't actually want any customers.

In my area Wirral, First's newest vehicles in the fleet at Birkenhead are on 05 plates, whilst most others are on P, R, S, T plates & cast offs from other areas, don't look great. The main company on the Wirral Arriva have invested in new vehicles the last few years & passenger numbers have increased, plus there's a batch of Hybrid Deckers are due in the next couple of months for Birkenhead although there mostly replacing the Enviro 400s which themselves are quite new, First fleet looks dreadful in comparison, even some of the Independent operators on Wirral have better fleets than First.
 

tbtc

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Also has anyone else notice during the Ecomanic turndown,

* Who was out there slashing bus routes and pushing up fares? FIRST,
* Who was out there trying to cut conners and not spend any money on new buses? FIRST

* Who was out there not making ANY major cutback? Stagecoach
* Who continued to only increase fares once a year? Stagecoach
* Who continued to buy new buses? Stagecoach
* Who continued to see any noticeable mile reduction in there operation but infact so an increase? Stagecoach

Facts speck for themselves. if first does pull out it would be to the links of Nat Express and Go ahead to pick up many of the piece.

First saw the recession as a challenge (cut investment, increase fares). Stagecoach saw it as an opportunity (keep investing to attract the kind of people who can no longer afford to drive). Says a lot.
 

Phil6219

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15 Jul 2011
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Manchester, UK
Similar reduction in Manchester ticket price but only for those inside the M60 - plus a new "cross city" service (a rarity in Manchester, connecting the core First area to the University/ Hospital area on the Stagecoach side of town).

As I said though this is not going to be of much benefit to the majority of users, Bolton & Leigh are outside this boundary and yet make up a huge proportion of passengers on the routes that pass the M60. Bury is also outside the M60 however they have operated a special fare on the 135 service for a while (£2.50 day tickets and a weekly for something like £8). That "cross city" service is a knee jerk reaction to Stagecoach who a few months ago introduced a new service the 50 which has serves Media City, Salford, Manchester City Centre, Burnage and East Didsbury with a high frequency service.

First got lazy and tried to make their money by squeezing more money out of the existing passenger base, the above inflationary rises each year trying to make up for the declining number of people using their buses.

Very true, I remember when a weekly ticket cost £10, a few months later it had gone up to £12, then £14, then £15 and now it's £18.

As for the (joke) remark about their weekly ticket costing twenty pence in a few years, I wouldn't count on it. Knowing these clowns they would increase the fares to compensate for the loss of income from the other routes.

They will have lost me, if Stagecoach do run a fairly frequent daily service near me. I would rather pay less and have a more reliable service but with fewer choices in services to get home than put up with First any longer.

But a lot of their initiatives seem quite half hearted.

They did a campaign with the Manchester Evening News several weeks back with tokens for free day tickets, one token for one ticket which was fair enough though nobody actually seemed to advertise this fact so I reckon the take up on this was negligible.

Look at the amount of articulated buses they bought for Manchester/ Leeds etc that were redundant after just a few years.

They are the backbone of the 135 service however last Sunday they were all "grounded" (due to Remembrance Day there were many road closures and I guess they didn't want one going down a road it couldn't get out of). This gave an opportunity to run every service with a Gemini double decker and the difference was astonishing. It wasn't as cramped yet still had roughly the same number of passengers as usual.

Perhaps my memory is completely wrong here but were the original articulated buses swapped with those in London which had been spontaneously combusting? Either way those Volvo jobbies got taken off their routes and I don't know who they got palmed off on. The Scanias are ok but get overcrowded too quickly, I assume they are used on the 135 mainly for Cheetham Hill where they have the biggest flow of passengers boarding and alighting.

Or how First came up with a new livery for Hybrid buses (like Stagecoach have a dedicated livery for Hybrid buses) then started painting non-hybrid buses in it, then started a whole other livery, like nobody knows what the strategy is.

I've lost track of what livery is for what now, the pink and lilac livery is what I'm guessing is their new corporate scheme (having seen this around Leeds), the hybrid double decker has a silver base with the pink & lilac while the hybrid midi-bus has the GMPTE sponsored silver and green livery. Everything else seems to be the original Barbie livery, or have I missed a few? ;)

I like the hybrid midi-bus however they use it on routes that should use a double decker which isn't going to score points with the self loading freight, try using that on a Saturday night for Manchester-Tyldesly and it really does feel like Steerage in there.

The double decker hybrid on the other hand is awful, it has so much wheelchair and buggy space it means the lower deck has a strange seat layout and not that many seats. It also has the ride quality of a pacer riding the sleepers, is that just because of the way the vehicle is built or does the really bad seating design play a part in that too?

Phil 8-)
 

markie73

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8 May 2012
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Northampton,UK
Another big thing for First to address is their policy of retaining a vehicle until it's kaput. I understand why they didn't want their buses to fall into the hands of other companies when they thought that *their* buses were a cut above the norm.

But nowadays it means First still using knackered vehicles, squeezing the life out of them (like the N reg B10Ls in Sheffield, when Stagecoach are happy to withdraw buses at ten/ fifteen years. So some First areas see buses a lot older than they would have if another company was running that town.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Take a look at the recent fleet change at Northampton for example, they have swapped 02 plate B7L's for 96/97/98 equipment which even the drivers say are completely knackered and to top it off a W reg Alexander (32065) has turned up to replace the two remaining Gemini deckers which are being moved to Stoke, if this operation is up for sale then it wont do First any good reducing the fleets value by introducing stock that is well past its sell by date.
 

overthewater

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16 Apr 2012
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Its seems Jeroen Weimar ‏"Can't confirm either way" if more sell off are happening soon.

Does this mean another surprise/surprises could appear before xmas.
 

markie73

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Northampton,UK
In my area Wirral, First's newest vehicles in the fleet at Birkenhead are on 05 plates, whilst most others are on P, R, S, T plates & cast offs from other areas, don't look great. The main company on the Wirral Arriva have invested in new vehicles the last few years & passenger numbers have increased, plus there's a batch of Hybrid Deckers are due in the next couple of months for Birkenhead although there mostly replacing the Enviro 400s which themselves are quite new, First fleet looks dreadful in comparison, even some of the Independent operators on Wirral have better fleets than First.

So it's not just Northampton that is getting the crap as well then!:shock:
 
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markie73

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Northampton,UK
Its seems Jeroen Weimar ‏"Can't confirm either way" if more sell off are happening soon.

Does this mean another surprise/surprises could appear before xmas.

I can't see First retaining Northampton as it's claimed the operation is one of the biggest lost making depots that they have.
 

overthewater

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Are vehicles included in the Wigan/ Chester/ Birkenhead sales?

(genuine question)

I would like to know this aswell, but I have heard that 10 buses are being sent down from Scotland to Manchester to join other not in use stock which will be sent to wigan.
 

markie73

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Northampton,UK
Are vehicles included in the Wigan/ Chester/ Birkenhead sales?

(genuine question)

No idea, but Centrebus had a sniff at First Northampton operations but would only buy if they could have the fleet (:shock:) and the depot (:lol:) needless to say that has gone quiet as well!.
 

tbtc

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I would like to know this aswell, but I have heard that 10 buses are being sent down from Scotland to Manchester to join other not in use stock which will be sent to wigan.

No idea, but Centrebus had a sniff at First Northampton operations but would only buy if they could have the fleet (:shock:) and the depot (:lol:) needless to say that has gone quiet as well!.

I'm presuming that if buses are included in the sale price (which I don't *know*) then the vehicles involved are clearly agreed upon - i.e. First can't sell Wigan depot on the basis that it currently runs with Geminis and then swap them for fifteen/ twenty year old vehicles?

There's also the issue of Stagecoach running buses in First livery in the short term if they do inherit them?

But then if buses aren't included, then where will Stagecoach get spare buses from? Will some areas lose five/ten year old vehicles to move to Wigan (and reinstate "withdrawn" vehicles)?
 

radamfi

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That "cross city" service is a knee jerk reaction to Stagecoach who a few months ago introduced a new service the 50 which has serves Media City, Salford, Manchester City Centre, Burnage and East Didsbury with a high frequency service.

It was going to be a matter of time before cross-city services started operating so neither service was a great surprise. Bus priority to facilitate cross-city services are being constructed

http://www.tfgm.com/buses/crosscitybus/Pages/crosscitybus.aspx

It is noteworthy that neither service encroaches into each other's area to a significant degree. They go no further into 'foreign' territory than Salford Shopping Centre (formerly Salford Shopping City/Pendleton Precinct) or the MRI.

Perhaps my memory is completely wrong here but were the original articulated buses swapped with those in London which had been spontaneously combusting? Either way those Volvo jobbies got taken off their routes and I don't know who they got palmed off on. The Scanias are ok but get overcrowded too quickly, I assume they are used on the 135 mainly for Cheetham Hill where they have the biggest flow of passengers boarding and alighting.

The original 135 bendy buses were subsequently used on the 582 and 8 routes. The London bendy buses were Mercedes Citaros.

It is only in Britain where such a fuss is made about the issues concerning articulated buses. Countries noted for particularly good public transport, such as Switzerland and the Netherlands, use articulated buses in preference to double deckers.
 
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overthewater

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I'm presuming that if buses are included in the sale price (which I don't *know*) then the vehicles involved are clearly agreed upon - i.e. First can't sell Wigan depot on the basis that it currently runs with Geminis and then swap them for fifteen/ twenty year old vehicles?

There's also the issue of Stagecoach running buses in First livery in the short term if they do inherit them?

But then if buses aren't included, then where will Stagecoach get spare buses from? Will some areas lose five/ten year old vehicles to move to Wigan (and reinstate "withdrawn" vehicles)?

The Scottish buses being sent down to wigan are 55 plates....
 

markie73

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I'm presuming that if buses are included in the sale price (which I don't *know*) then the vehicles involved are clearly agreed upon - i.e. First can't sell Wigan depot on the basis that it currently runs with Geminis and then swap them for fifteen/ twenty year old vehicles?

There's also the issue of Stagecoach running buses in First livery in the short term if they do inherit them?

But then if buses aren't included, then where will Stagecoach get spare buses from? Will some areas lose five/ten year old vehicles to move to Wigan (and reinstate "withdrawn" vehicles)?

Well from what I have been told then Stagecoach Midlands could use their own metal as 'On hire to First Northampton' and driven by ex-First Northampton drivers (their jobs are saved) or the worst scenario they could in the short term use the existing First Northampton fleet and drivers but with the logo's etc removed and 'Operated by Stagecoach Midlands'.

Whatever happens then its going to be interesting to see what happens to the Northampton operation.
 

tbtc

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Uncle Brain only buy you know whats ;) Alx300 that are being sent

Sorry, I read your previous post as suggesting that *First* were sending down older buses to Wigan (to replace the most modern stuff), didn't realise you were talking about Stagecoach.

Where in "Scotland" is losing buses then?
 

Phil6219

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The original 135 bendy buses were subsequently used on the 582 and 8 routes.

Indeed but what has happened to them now? I heard they were stored, not exactly good for vehicles only a few years old.

The London bendy buses were Mercedes Citaros.

I'm positive FM had some of these at least a few years ago, though leading into...
It is only in Britain where such a fuss is made about the issues concerning articulated buses. Countries noted for particularly good public transport, such as Switzerland and the Netherlands, use articulated buses in preference to double deckers.

Probably why if we did have those Mercedes buses the story of a swap of our "good" ones for the bad fire prone ones...

Personally I have little to no opinion on them, they have more capacity than a standard single decker but less than a double. I use them on weekends when I'm on my way to Bury and don't mind them. I can't really see what the general public actually has against them.

It was going to be a matter of time before cross-city services started operating so neither service was a great surprise.

True, Stagecoach were dead certs to start a service to Media City, after all it has so much potential. If anything it is First which is taking a back seat, they don't appear to have any real service there and am a little surprised that they didn't at least route the 33 via it (though we can be thankful of that as the journey times are already awful).

I must admit though, it is a puzzler as to why Peel never made a purpose built bus station at Media City, they have plenty of space and the access isn't too hard. They are putting all their faith in the Metrolink.

Phil 8-)
 

overthewater

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Sorry, I read your previous post as suggesting that *First* were sending down older buses to Wigan (to replace the most modern stuff), didn't realise you were talking about Stagecoach.

Where in "Scotland" is losing buses then?

Aberdeen I have been told,
 

cainebj

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Vehicles are included in the sale. The current Wigan fleet has been frozen by First to transfer over to Stagecoach, but Stagecoach are also preparing their own fleet of vehicles to immediately replace some of the First stock, I believe the 20 Optare Excel's (most don't have a wheelchair ramp), the 15 R reg Dart's (no wheelchair ramp) and Dennis Arrow's are for the chop almost immediately. 04reg Dart's from Western (Ayr), 55reg MAN ALX300's from East Scotland (Aberdeen) and 51reg MAN ALX300's from Cambridge have transferred/are transferring to Manchester to replace the elderly First stock.
I believe First vehicles will be used by Stagecoach in First livery to start with, with Stagecoach names replacing the removed First names, with vehicles being repainted into Stagecoach livery as and when it is possible to do so (would imagine it will take priority in Manchester's paintshops). On a takeover there's usually no immediate requirement to get every vehicle out of the previous owners livery straight away, it takes time to get them painted and should be something First have agreed to.

Not 100% sure on Chester & Wirral just yet, some Solo's have apparently moved from Chester to Oldham which could be a sign of a few small movements first, this would be agreed by Stagecoach though and considered in the price.
 

radamfi

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Probably why if we did have those Mercedes buses the story of a swap of our "good" ones for the bad fire prone ones...

Personally I have little to no opinion on them, they have more capacity than a standard single decker but less than a double. I use them on weekends when I'm on my way to Bury and don't mind them. I can't really see what the general public actually has against them.

Actually there is nothing fire prone about Mercedes Citaros. Other vehicle types go on fire periodically with little or no publicity. Citaros wouldn't be used in such great numbers across Europe if they were unsafe, especially given they are not particularly cheap. Indeed, if any bus was to represent an iconic quality European bus it would the Citaro.
 

overthewater

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People also have to remember that alot of spare buses are flooting about since the summer and with even more new buses appearing, there is plenty for the time being which can be used else where to replace alot of older stock.
 

robertclark125

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And of course Stagecoach will want to keep the best stock, which will be refurbished to their style. Each vehicle will be examined for condition, and a decision will then be made on whether or not it's financially viable to refurbish or not.
 

Tomonthetrain

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Apparently Northampton has been sold to Centrebus. Nice news.

Overthewater, can you give us some of the latest updated odds please?
 

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