First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

The two Geminis should be getting transferred out soon. That their replacement is in service alongside them isn't that odd, generally First don't differentiate between vehicle sizes "a bus is a bus"

Are the two ex Northampton Gemini's going to Leicester or to Potteries

 

[overthewater]

If that all the new stock out of the town, when will we hear about sell off?

 

[winston270twm]

is it possible with this now out, a few more complete close down could actully appear instead now?

I guess you would have to weigh up how much it would cost to close the operations down i.e. redundancy payouts, write downs on assets i.e. a purpose built bus garage would be worth much more sold with the operation than being retained for use in another form. Can the fleet be re-deployed elsewhere?
Against what they could sell the operation for to a competitor as a going concern and record a loss on disposal against purchase price
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If that all the new stock out of the town, when will we hear about sell off?

Once the Gemini's go, the newest service bus will be a V-reg Scania L94

 

[tbtc]

A Strange thing has happened, A Volvo B7TL/Alexander 32065- W reg Decker has been transferred to Northampton. Could this be getting swapped with one of the gems?

Once the Gemini's go, the newest service bus will be a V-reg Scania L94

Other than the W reg replacements for the Geminis?

 

[winston270twm]

Other than the W reg replacements for the Geminis?

Yes of course, you're correct

 

[markie73]

So more scrap arrives at First Northampton, just how much longer will this go on before we hear something definate about the sell off/closure etc,etc?

I feel sorry for the staff at the depot as it's not nice having to work in such uncertainty and at this time of the year.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Was in Wigan today and very little signs of the word Stagecoach...

Will Wigan come Under Stagecoach Manchester?? or South Lancs and Merseyside neither of which the bus company operates into barring the 113 Sunday Shorts.

Can we assume the 113 will fully transfer to Northwest Now?

 

[mbonwick]

Stagecoach don't own Wigan yet....as the press releases say, the deal should be complete by December.

Wigan will come under Manchester as its work is entirely within the TfGM boundary, plus it has the Leigh Guided Busway...

 

[markie73]

[QUOTE winston270twm ]I guess you would have to weigh up how much it would cost to close the operations down i.e. redundancy payouts, write downs on assets i.e. a purpose built bus garage would be worth much more sold with the operation than being retained for use in another form. Can the fleet be re-deployed elsewhere?

Against what they could sell the operation for to a competitor as a going concern and record a loss on disposal against purchase price



As I understand it they had discussions with Centrebus a while back and Uno Bus was rumored to be operating both of First Northampton's service 4 and 4A very soon but that has gone quiet recently as well.

With the latest fleet change AGAIN and with the existing relics I can't see them being re-deployed anywhere other then the scrap yard!.

It does not look good now and I fear that First Northampton will cancel their routes and pull out of Northampton if a buyer is not found.

 

[mbonwick]

There is no intent to find a buyer for Northampton now, (nor was there ever from what I'm hearing).

A minority market share plus leased depot make it very unattractive for sale, so First made the decision to sell off the assets (much like Devon), and let other existing operators pick up the work. The old Scanias etc are only in there to keep the service going until everything is pulled.

 

[overthewater]

I wonder if there planning to pull the plug over xmas. This means the regs would go in shortly ...which might explain the talk.

 

[robertclark125]

One possible exit route, that could guarantee employment for the drivers, is for First to deregister the routes, and stagecoach to register replacements, and Stagecoach to run the buses "On Hire" to First Northampton, until the official changeover date, using the First drivers, but Stagecoach vehicles.

Not ideal, but for those currently employed, probably the best way.

 

[tbtc]

Has anyone got a Northampton fleet list?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Has anyone got a Northampton fleet list?

A first Midlands (Includes Northampton) can be found here

http://www.busenthusiast.webspace.virginmedia.com/fleet/firstmidlands.pdf

 

[markie73]

One possible exit route, that could guarantee employment for the drivers, is for First to deregister the routes, and stagecoach to register replacements, and Stagecoach to run the buses "On Hire" to First Northampton, until the official changeover date, using the First drivers, but Stagecoach vehicles.

Not ideal, but for those currently employed, probably the best way.

You could be right in what you are saying, here is part of a e-mail I received from Stagecoach Midlands during the week:

'Finally I would advise you that First are currently in the process of
trying to sell its Northampton depot, which Stagecoach Midlands would
ideally like to buy, but we would be precluded from doing so by the
Competition Authorities. If First are unsuccessful with this strategy
however and decide to withdraw any routes, then Stagecoach Midlands would
be extremely interested in providing a replacement service.'


This would be ideal for the First Northampton drivers as it would guarantee them employment, I hope it's all sorted for them soon though.
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There is no intent to find a buyer for Northampton now, (nor was there ever from what I'm hearing).

A minority market share plus leased depot make it very unattractive for sale, so First made the decision to sell off the assets (much like Devon), and let other existing operators pick up the work. The old Scanias etc are only in there to keep the service going until everything is pulled.

I think what will happen is that we will see chunks of the operation go to Stagecoach and Uno Bus with the remains being hoovered up by smaller operators, I might be wrong but I fear its a matter of time now before the axe falls and takes the memories of Northampton Transport with it...

 

[A0]

I think what will happen is that we will see chunks of the operation go to Stagecoach and Uno Bus with the remains being hoovered up by smaller operators, I might be wrong but I fear its a matter of time now before the axe falls and takes the memories of Northampton Transport with it...

Well, given First are trying to sell it, seemingly without much success and Stagecoach, much as they'd like to take it over, will be precluded from doing so by the competition authorities, I think an orderly close down is most likely.

No surprise that nobody wants it - First have neglected it completely for the last 8 or so years by giving up services to some areas of the town and running a progressively older fleet when Stagecoach were clearly investing in the future.

In terms of who'll pick up what:

Stagecoach will look to register some routes - though I don't know what spare capacity they have in terms of either drivers or vehicles.

Uno may look to expand, but it is early days with their operations in Northampton and currently the routes they operate are established routes with a close tie to the University - they aren't operating anything which is truly 'commercial' in that sense.

Centrebus may look to do some more work in Northampton - they've started to establish themselves in Corby / Kettering - Northampton would be a logical progression.

Meridian bus - maybe some more, but they're a small player.

The one that hasn't been mentioned by anyone is Arriva - who may take another look at running stuff in Northampton. They did have some NCC work at one point - and running into Northampton from MK isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[MK Tom]

The one that hasn't been mentioned by anyone is Arriva - who may take another look at running stuff in Northampton. They did have some NCC work at one point - and running into Northampton from MK isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

It is quite unlikely really. Since their takeover by DB Arriva have changed their modus operandi considerably, not bidding for contracts and focusing on profitable routes and areas (which is why they pulled out of Northampton, they lost a few contracts and what was left wasn't making a profit for them). Their focus on profitable areas and neglect of others can clearly be seen by the state of their operations in Aylesbury, Stafford and numerous others contrasted with those in the likes of Leicester and Watford (MK seems to lie somewhere in between). The route they used to run between MK and Northampton is contract service 33 which is now in the hands of Z&S and Arriva would not be able to profitably underbid Z&S for it with their overheads (they also ran a route via Olney which isn't practical as a through service and has been taken over locally by Stagecoach's 41). Stagecoach have now ramped up their MK-Northampton services to two an hour (three counting the 89) so the competition there would be difficult and Arriva tend to avoid competition wherever possible.

Frankly given Arriva's spectacular retreat back to MK from Northants and Beds in 2010-11 I don't see them growing in Bucks at all over the next few years, much less into new areas. In fact what I anticipate is an expanded Stagecoach presence in MK and Arriva giving up more of their operations in the Bucks area, pumping all of their resources into a small number of key routes.

 

[A0]

It is quite unlikely really. Since their takeover by DB Arriva have changed their modus operandi considerably, not bidding for contracts and focusing on profitable routes and areas (which is why they pulled out of Northampton, they lost a few contracts and what was left wasn't making a profit for them). Their focus on profitable areas and neglect of others can clearly be seen by the state of their operations in Aylesbury, Stafford and numerous others contrasted with those in the likes of Leicester and Watford (MK seems to lie somewhere in between). The route they used to run between MK and Northampton is contract service 33 which is now in the hands of Z&S and Arriva would not be able to profitably underbid Z&S for it with their overheads (they also ran a route via Olney which isn't practical as a through service and has been taken over locally by Stagecoach's 41). Stagecoach have now ramped up their MK-Northampton services to two an hour (three counting the 89) so the competition there would be difficult and Arriva tend to avoid competition wherever possible.

Frankly given Arriva's spectacular retreat back to MK from Northants and Beds in 2010-11 I don't see them growing in Bucks at all over the next few years, much less into new areas. In fact what I anticipate is an expanded Stagecoach presence in MK and Arriva giving up more of their operations in the Bucks area, pumping all of their resources into a small number of key routes.

The Arriva work in Northampton was a legacy of what they inherited when they took over MK Metro - it wasn't an Arriva planned venture. I hardly think they have shown a 'spectacular' retreat from Northants or Beds - the Northants one was more a loss of contracts, which given NCC have been curtailing a lot of contracts anyway, was probably inevitable.

Arriva are focussing on MK much more at the moment, that much is true, but I can't see Stagecoach expanding their presence in MK - traditionally MK has been a difficult proposition for bus operators and Stagecoach would initially have to service anything for MK out of Bedford or Northampton - which given they might just be about to pick up some new routes in Northampton means they probably don't have the capacity for that.

 

[tbtc]

A first Midlands (Includes Northampton) can be found here

http://www.busenthusiast.webspace.virginmedia.com/fleet/firstmidlands.pdf

Thanks
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It is quite unlikely really. Since their takeover by DB Arriva have changed their modus operandi considerably, not bidding for contracts and focusing on profitable routes and areas (which is why they pulled out of Northampton, they lost a few contracts and what was left wasn't making a profit for them)

Didn't they recently buy an operator in the West Midlands which specialised in Centro contracts though?

 

[winston270twm]

[QUOTE winston270twm ]I guess you would have to weigh up how much it would cost to close the operations down i.e. redundancy payouts, write downs on assets i.e. a purpose built bus garage would be worth much more sold with the operation than being retained for use in another form. Can the fleet be re-deployed elsewhere?

Against what they could sell the operation for to a competitor as a going concern and record a loss on disposal against purchase price

With the latest fleet change AGAIN and with the existing relics I can't see them being re-deployed anywhere other then the scrap yard!.

There are still a number of First Subsidiaries operating step entrance single deckers in the form of Dennis Darts (i.e Bristol, Cyrmu, Hampshire, FSA etc), Glasgow still run N/P reg B10M/Alexander PS. Even some of the early P reg Dart SLF's are only fit for the scrap yard. I'm sure some those fleets would happily take S/T & V-reg Scania L113/L94's ex Northampton for upgrading their own fleets
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Thanks
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Didn't they recently buy an operator in the West Midlands which specialised in Centro contracts though?

Yes, Arriva bought Midland off D&G & have set up their own garage in West Bromwich to operate Centro contracts from prior to that

 

[tbtc]

There are still a number of First Subsidiaries operating step entrance single deckers in the form of Dennis Darts (i.e Bristol, Cyrmu, Hampshire, FSA etc), Glasgow still run N/P reg B10M/Alexander PS. Even some of the early P reg Dart SLF's are only fit for the scrap yard. I'm sure some those fleets would happily take S/T & V-reg Scania L113/L94's ex Northampton for upgrading their own fleets

This makes me wonder whether First have been allowing these fleets of older buses to remain a little longer (than Stagecoach etc would have) knowing that the "sale"/ disposal of some operations would allow them to plunder some ten/fifteen year old buses instead.

Out of interest, does anyone know how much of the Mussleburgh/ Dalkeith fleet was sold/ disposed/ cascaded elsewhere within First?

Yes, Arriva bought Midland off D&G & have set up their own garage in West Bromwich to operate Centro contracts from prior to that

Cheers for confirming

 

[MK Tom]

The Arriva work in Northampton was a legacy of what they inherited when they took over MK Metro - it wasn't an Arriva planned venture. I hardly think they have shown a 'spectacular' retreat from Northants or Beds - the Northants one was more a loss of contracts, which given NCC have been curtailing a lot of contracts anyway, was probably inevitable.

Arriva are focussing on MK much more at the moment, that much is true, but I can't see Stagecoach expanding their presence in MK - traditionally MK has been a difficult proposition for bus operators and Stagecoach would initially have to service anything for MK out of Bedford or Northampton - which given they might just be about to pick up some new routes in Northampton means they probably don't have the capacity for that.

True but Arriva did buy MK Metro way back in 2006. They continued and expanded that operation after then. Then they completely pulled out of Northants and Beds in 2010/11, even MK local routes like the 14 to Deanshanger. I really don't see them expanding back into Northy given their previous withdrawal and the number of operators already there, excluding First.

Stagecoach operate the MK-Luton 99 even though it's no longer funded by Virgin and they have no depot in either place. Two new Stagecoach routes into MK have started in the last year and a third has been diverted to serve more suburbs. I've spoken to Stagecoach and they are looking at options for further increasing their services in the area.

 

[markie73]

I think that its just a case of lets wait and see what happens with First Northampton, for what its worth I can see Stagecoach Midlands taking the majority of the core routes (such as the 4 and 4A) with the other routes such as the 2 and 23 being merged into their existing operation if First decide to close Northampton if they don't sell the operation.

If this happens then Stagecoach will have found a way to have a monopoly on the services within the borough by registering their own version of the existing First Northampton routes.

 

[overthewater]

Most of fleet in the dalkeith and muss is still around, waiting to be scrapped. Anything good was used in muss and a few bits went to livingston.

 

[Qwerty133]

Centrebus may look to do some more work in Northampton - they've started to establish themselves in Corby / Kettering - Northampton would be a logical progression.


The one that hasn't been mentioned by anyone is Arriva - who may take another look at running stuff in Northampton. They did have some NCC work at one point - and running into Northampton from MK isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

might be the excuse to remove the last remaining half-decent and modern busses away from leicester. centrebus have even sent hinckley depot a bus Highpeak have publicly said on the transpeak FB page is rubbish and should be scrapped (687)

 

[radamfi]

First Manchester are introducing new significant fare deals from 18 November.

There will be new day and week tickets covering parts of the area.

One covering the area inside the M60 and another covering Oldham borough, with an extension along the Oldham to Manchester corridor.

Both priced at £3.90 per day and £13 per week, compared to the regular networkwide tickets at £4.50 per day and £18 per week.

 

[markie73]

might be the excuse to remove the last remaining half-decent and modern busses away from leicester. centrebus have even sent hinckley depot a bus Highpeak have publicly said on the transpeak FB page is rubbish and should be scrapped (687)

First Leicester will be getting the last two remaining Gemini Deckers from Northampton soon....in return for more scrap!

 

[tbtc]

First Leicester will be getting the last two remaining Gemini Deckers from Northampton soon....in return for more scrap!

Are "W" reg buses "scrap"?

 

[markie73]

Are "W" reg buses "scrap"?

Volvo B7TL/Alexander 32065 is over 12 years old which is young compared to the floliners which have recently arrived (which are 1996/97), all depends how well it has been looked after though.......

The last two remaining Gemini Deckers are on '05 plates which makes them 6 - 7 years old.

 

[MK Tom]

Volvo B7TL/Alexander 32065 is over 12 years old which is young compared to the floliners which have recently arrived (which are 1996/97), all depends how well it has been looked after though.......

The last two remaining Gemini Deckers are on '05 plates which makes them 6 - 7 years old.

54 I believe.