First Group: General Discussion

[Tomonthetrain]

I wouldn't mind NX swooping in to buy some of the stuff First have for sale. There again I am hoping a bit!

 

[overthewater]

Perhaps First may actually sell a very profitable part of the business, one that they would really like to keep under different circumstances?

Such as what?

Alas issues and Problems with the top three companies will continue since none make profits. First has to get rid off dead wood companies if it's going to stop wasting profits on certain companies that are always in he red.

 

[markie73]

I wouldn't mind NX swooping in to buy some of the stuff First have for sale. There again I am hoping a bit!

I can't see NX even looking at First Northampton, my money is Stagecoach Midlands and Uno Bus getting a look in (The latter started operations here in September and is looking to expand).

 

[A0]

I can't see NX even looking at First Northampton, my money is Stagecoach Midlands and Uno Bus getting a look in (The latter started operations here in September and is looking to expand).

The only other player who might take an interest is Centrebus, who have a presence in north Northants following an earlier takeover.

 

[markie73]

The only other player who might take an interest is Centrebus, who have a presence in north Northants following an earlier takeover.

Well they have been rumored to have held talks with First Northampton I believe the price being asked by them was too high and also Centrebus wanted the fleet and the garage as well, and apparently Stagecoach are not interested in First Northampton or so they say!

I hope that we hear something either way as it's been dragging on for a while now.

 

[radamfi]

Such as what?

Such as subsidiaries not mentioned so far in this thread. For example Glasgow, rest of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire. Selling one of these might go a long way to paying off the debt.

 

[overthewater]

Such as subsidiaries not mentioned so far in this thread. For example Glasgow, rest of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire. Selling one of these might go a long way to paying off the debt.

Glasgow No1 depots are safe as Brick house, there just gotten 40 new buses, and there still more new buses due. If we were to talk about No2 depots thats a different kettle of fish

* Cumbernauld
* Overtown

Both have seen plenty of rumoured connected to them, and could be sold off but its becoming unlikely for the moment but Cumbernauld could raise another £6-7million? I doubt West or South Yorkshire is going anywhere. Another Manchester Depot that could happen. But the smart money for now is on that other places. First should hold back any BIG Depot until the ecomany gets better, but should continue getting rid of the dead wood and Debt ridden depots.

 

[winston270twm]

I wouldn't mind NX swooping in to buy some of the stuff First have for sale. There again I am hoping a bit!

I'm with you there, I'd like to see NX increase its presence in the UK bus market. With Dean Finch at the helm (a former First Group man) he may have a better idea than most which First Group operations for sale have the most potential...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Such as subsidiaries not mentioned so far in this thread. For example Glasgow, rest of Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire. Selling one of these might go a long way to paying off the debt.

First would be better off to retain all of the former PTE & large urban operations and instead invest in marketing, new vehicles, fare promotions/reductions to reduce help passenger decline/promote growth in those areas. It is these large scale operations that will generate the cash flow & any improvement in profitability will be more noticeable due to there size and will have a far greater impact on UK bus profitability overall. They should focus on offloading the poor performing operations with elderly fleets as they are doing and also offer some smaller profitable urban operations for sale that will achieve a good sale price to raise the £100 million they quote for debt reduction

 

[radamfi]

Of course the big city operations would, under normal conditions, be worth keeping. But, depending how serious their debt problem is, they may be forced into divesting one of these. The sale of the less profitable operations may not be enough, especially if they end up deregistering these networks without a sale.

I also wonder whether they might be better off selling West Yorkshire in case Quality Contracts come in.

 

[winston270twm]

Of course the big city operations would, under normal conditions, be worth keeping. But, depending how serious their debt problem is, they may be forced into divesting one of these. The sale of the less profitable operations may not be enough, especially if they end up deregistering these networks without a sale.

I also wonder whether they might be better off selling West Yorkshire in case Quality Contracts come in.

South Yorkshire or Sheffield at least was on the chopping block until recently, however I understand it has received a stay of execution for a further 12-18 months in an attempt to turn around its fortunes, with newer Gemini's being transferred in from Leeds, fare reductions etc. Early indications appear that its currently working

 

[tbtc]

South Yorkshire or Sheffield at least was on the chopping block until recently, however I understand it has received a stay of execution for a further 12-18 months in an attempt to turn around its fortunes, with newer Gemini's being transferred in from Leeds, fare reductions etc. Early indications appear that its currently working

Seems to be going okay (weekly tickets down from £18.50 to £11, for example, forty double deckers from Leeds, many unprofitable routes passed to other companies).

Now that peace has broken out with Stagecoach in Sheffield*, it may make any sale more attractive (since a new company would be buying into a fairly secure market in Sheffield, rather than the choppy waters of the previous five years)

(* - though maybe not in the Rotherham/ Dearne Valley area)

 

[bluenoxid]

Of course the big city operations would, under normal conditions, be worth keeping. But, depending how serious their debt problem is, they may be forced into divesting one of these. The sale of the less profitable operations may not be enough, especially if they end up deregistering these networks without a sale.

I also wonder whether they might be better off selling West Yorkshire in case Quality Contracts come in.

Nah. Get rid of the scare that is QCS and you will add value.

 

[radamfi]

Nah. Get rid of the scare that is QCS and you will add value.

So you don't think it will happen?

Well, I have to admit that I always thought that Metro will chicken out of it at the last minute, but I didn't think it would get this far.

 

[bluenoxid]

Better Bus Area funding is causing Nexus and Metro to look very closely at Partnerships again.

 

[winston270twm]

Hopefully we may finally hear of further UK bus disposals in a few hours time when First Group announce half year results to the London stock exchange

 

[Volvodart]

http://online.hemscottir.com/servle...87435816&ir_client_id=2899&transform=newsitem

No real news on disposals

"We have a strong platform from which to grow in UK Bus. The vast majority of our bus operations generate good returns or have potential for significant
further improvement. As part of our stated strategy to reposition and rebalance our portfolio, we were pleased to announce the sale of our Wigan bus business to Stagecoach Group plc for a consideration of GBP12.0m on 31 October 2012. We are confident of the opportunities to continue to focus the size and shape of our UK Bus portfolio and, with discussions ongoing with a number of interested parties, we will continue to work through our programme of selected business and asset disposals."


UK Bus depot sales and closures

"Our programme to rebalance our portfolio of UK Bus operation has continued.
During the period we received disposal proceeds of GBP14.2m for the
Northumberland Park depot, which was sold last year. Net losses of GBP3.3m (2011: GBPnil) were incurred during the period for UK Bus depots that were closed in East Lothian and North Devon. This represents principally closure costs including redundancy payments."

Loss on disposal of properties

"The programme of disposals is progressing in the UK and North America. A loss on disposal of properties of GBP1.9m (2011: GBP0.7m) was recorded during the period principally reflecting losses on disposals of certain UK Bus properties. We anticipate further disposals in the second half."

Operating margin was down to 6.9%, although 8% expected for the full year.

 

[radamfi]

Stagecoach are taking over Bluebird, increasing the pressure on First in north Manchester.

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach are taking over Bluebird, increasing the pressure on First in north Manchester.

Link?

It also looks unlikely anything will appear about northampton this week.

 

[radamfi]

Link?

http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/stagecoach/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=273&newsid=291057

 

[overthewater]

Thank you.

I wonder when we will start hearing about any Goahead buy out.

 

[winston270twm]

http://online.hemscottir.com/servle...87435816&ir_client_id=2899&transform=newsitem

No real news on disposals

"We have a strong platform from which to grow in UK Bus. The vast majority of our bus operations generate good returns or have potential for significant
further improvement. As part of our stated strategy to reposition and rebalance our portfolio, we were pleased to announce the sale of our Wigan bus business to Stagecoach Group plc for a consideration of GBP12.0m on 31 October 2012. We are confident of the opportunities to continue to focus the size and shape of our UK Bus portfolio and, with discussions ongoing with a number of interested parties, we will continue to work through our programme of selected business and asset disposals."


UK Bus depot sales and closures

"Our programme to rebalance our portfolio of UK Bus operation has continued.
During the period we received disposal proceeds of GBP14.2m for the
Northumberland Park depot, which was sold last year. Net losses of GBP3.3m (2011: GBPnil) were incurred during the period for UK Bus depots that were closed in East Lothian and North Devon. This represents principally closure costs including redundancy payments."

Loss on disposal of properties

"The programme of disposals is progressing in the UK and North America. A loss on disposal of properties of GBP1.9m (2011: GBP0.7m) was recorded during the period principally reflecting losses on disposals of certain UK Bus properties. We anticipate further disposals in the second half."

Operating margin was down to 6.9%, although 8% expected for the full year.

Disappointing with the lack of UK bus disposal news, its been an on-going for some considerable time now and they have raised little over a quarter of the £100 Million disposal target

 

[overthewater]

is it possible with this now out, a few more complete close down could actully appear instead now?

 

[tbtc]

Stagecoach are taking over Bluebird, increasing the pressure on First in north Manchester.

With Bluebird and the Wigan depot they've added an interesting chunk of work to their Greater Manchester operations (at a time when the tram is going to start cutting holes in their profitable corridors in southern Manchester).

Bluebird always seemed to have a decent fleet - well presented bus company

 

[overthewater]

Why is there very little details about each bus companies accounts?

 

[northwichcat]

With Bluebird and the Wigan depot they've added an interesting chunk of work to their Greater Manchester operations (at a time when the tram is going to start cutting holes in their profitable corridors in southern Manchester).

Bluebird always seemed to have a decent fleet - well presented bus company

Add to that JPT are increasing the number of buses they operate and they undercut First Manchester's fares.

 

[radamfi]

Add to that JPT are increasing the number of buses they operate and they undercut First Manchester's fares.

Although they are starting to give up on the 17 route, reducing the daytime frequency and scrapping evening buses. First put on new hybrids then matched JPT's fares on the 17.

JPT recently moved many of the 17 buses over to the 112 route to compete with Bluebird - oops!

 

[overthewater]

A Strange thing has happened, A Volvo B7TL/Alexander 32065- W reg Decker has been transferred to Northampton. Could this be getting swapped with one of the gems?

 

[MK Tom]

A Strange thing has happened, A Volvo B7TL/Alexander 32065- W reg Decker has been transferred to Northampton. Could this be getting swapped with one of the gems?

Both Geminis reported out in town on the same day as the new arrival. The mystery deepens.

 

[mbonwick]

The two Geminis should be getting transferred out soon. That their replacement is in service alongside them isn't that odd, generally First don't differentiate between vehicle sizes "a bus is a bus"

 

[Ivo]

The two Geminis should be getting transferred out soon. That their replacement is in service alongside them isn't that odd, generally First don't differentiate between vehicle sizes "a bus is a bus"

Hence the all-too-regular occurrences of vehicles on routes that their size is not appropriate for (one way or the other). This, if anything, is a serious flaw in the company that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later...