First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

I understand that, but because the deal went south then doesn't mean Diamond aren't taking another stab at it now. They do have a lot more cash lying around now after all...

It does when I've had confirmation from Rotala Senior management that they've heard the Arriva Manchester rumours and can honestly say it's not them.

 

[Kahuna47]

It does when I've had confirmation from Rotala Senior management that they've heard the Arriva Manchester rumours and can honestly say it's not them.

Its always nice to hear rumours backed up with factual evidence!

So that now puts Rotala back in the game for buying up bits of GM. Of course, they could also use that war chest up for other things a little closer to their home territory.

Thats probably me hoping too much there!

K

 

[winston270twm]

Its always nice to hear rumours backed up with factual evidence!

So that now puts Rotala back in the game for buying up bits of GM. Of course, they could also use that war chest up for other things a little closer to their home territory.

Thats probably me hoping too much there!

K

There's been plenty of press speculation on who's looking to make a bid for Arriva (all mainly private equity / fund managers at present), I've not come across any speculation for either a buyer for Greyhound or First UK Bus - indeed, it's been suggested that both those ops have been up for sale for sometime behind closed doors.

Rotala are always looking to grow through acquisitions, not sure how much is potentially for sale closer to their home territory. Anything from Arriva looks increasing unlikely until in hands of new owners at least, can't see First Group breaking up UK Bus & selling it off in bits either.... maybe we'll hear more once First's board find out if they've still got a jobs after the 25th June.

 

[DragonEast]

Agreed - I think that a lot of modern enthusiasts don't realise just how good First were twenty years ago,

and where do you think their "modern" fleet in the North came from twenty years ago; manna that dropped out of the sky from heaven, perhaps?

As for First Group when they say they are looking at options for separating First Bus from the rest of the Group, why wouldn't that mean exactly what it says. Whatever they have been up to in the past, it's back to the drawing board. After the apparent Manchester sale write off, with the "benefit" of all their work that they extoll so feverently and the desperately hoped-for "right" direction in the accounts, I for one wouldn't be surprised. Arriva UK Bus looks as a business in much better shape, though if course it's like the curate's egg - what sized bus business isn't? First Bus look (or stink, perhaps) more like a rotten egg.

 

[Robertj21a]

Its always nice to hear rumours backed up with factual evidence!

So that now puts Rotala back in the game for buying up bits of GM. Of course, they could also use that war chest up for other things a little closer to their home territory.

Thats probably me hoping too much there!

K

I think rather a number of us are hoping that Rotala doesn't buy up anything else !

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

and where do you think their "modern" fleet in the North came from twenty years ago; manna that dropped out of the sky from heaven, perhaps?

The thing was that in Badgerline days, they were very good at buying large numbers of relatively basic new vehicles, whether that be Merc 709s, Lances, Darts or Olympians, or earlier Olympians and Lynxes. Therefore, the age profiles of many of the fleets were quite decent in the mid to late 1990s.

There were a few issues in fleet replacement. Part of the issue was that First began to specify higher specification vehicles to "transform travel" whilst buying fleets that needed no small amount of fleet updating (like Greater Manchester) whilst still looking to replace the older stuff in their existing fleets.

 

[ChrisPJ]

I think that a lot of modern enthusiasts don't realise just how good First were twenty years ago, which is why their fall from grace is so frustrating - they seemed years ahead of the competition - flooding the streets with low floor vehicles back when Stagecoach were wedded to the B10M and Lothian Buses were still running Atlanteans.

Hindsight is wonderful but before they got too involved playing trains or getting transatlantic, they seemed a great company.

They were indeed doing some impressive things back in the late nineties and the future initially looked bright. However I think it’s correct to say that First ended up running Atlanteans in quantity far later than any other of the big groups, also VRs and other older types when most operators of size had done away with them.

I thought the low floor livery was an inspired move, a shame that it was diluted by applying it to late model Olympians as well, rather than hanging on a couple of years until Tridents were on the scene, for max impact.

 

[DD12]

Yes there is still the possibility that UK Bus will be launched as a separate company.

There is a meeting on the 25th at the request of coast capital who want to remove current first directors and replace them with directors of their own.

Thanks lastbus !

 

[DunsBus]

Derbyshire is in the North West Traffic Area and has been, afaik, for many years.

The extreme north-western parts of Derbyshire come under Greater Manchester, and they also get their local news (BBC and ITV) from there.

 

[tbtc]

They were indeed doing some impressive things back in the late nineties and the future initially looked bright. However I think it’s correct to say that First ended up running Atlanteans in quantity far later than any other of the big groups, also VRs and other older types when most operators of size had done away with them

True - I just mentioned Lothian Buses as they were the kind of big city metropolitan operator who you'd expect to have a reasonably modern fleet (compared to, say, Buses Of Somerset or Stagecoach Cumbria).

Twenty years ago the Darts (etc) in Barbie colours seemed so modern compared to the old fashioned other operators (still wedded to high floor vehicles).

I thought the low floor livery was an inspired move, a shame that it was diluted by applying it to late model Olympians as well, rather than hanging on a couple of years until Tridents were on the scene, for max impact.

I don't understand why the (apparently) "low floor" livery was also applied to high floor double deckers. Especially when First didn't apply it to some low floor buses (because they didn't have the right colour of seats etc, i.e. on stock that they inherited)

But then they compounded this by painting *everything* in a a version of pink/purple due to the "Barbie 2" colour scheme - removing what was a distinctive livery because it applied to everything. Much better to keep with the simplified colour schemes for inherited companies (like the "Mainline" livery in South Yorkshire that removed the black/ silver/ blue colours of Rotherham/ Doncaster and became just a plain red/yellow) and then we'd all notice as our routes were upgraded to these newfangled low floor buses (even if the Darts seemed pretty cheap/basic in hindsight!).

Same goes with "Olympia" - whilst I'm no fan of the livery, I think it'd have been a lot better if they'd restricted it to post-2012 vehicles. Instead, one of the first local buses to be painted in it was an R-reg B10BLE (which seemed to defeat the point of it!).

Typical First though; have a good idea then fail to implement it properly or lose interest part way through.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I don't understand why the (apparently) "low floor" livery was also applied to high floor double deckers. Especially when First didn't apply it to some low floor buses (because they didn't have the right colour of seats etc, i.e. on stock that they inherited)

But then they compounded this by painting *everything* in a a version of pink/purple due to the "Barbie 2" colour scheme - removing what was a distinctive livery because it applied to everything. Much better to keep with the simplified colour schemes for inherited companies (like the "Mainline" livery in South Yorkshire that removed the black/ silver/ blue colours of Rotherham/ Doncaster and became just a plain red/yellow) and then we'd all notice as our routes were upgraded to these newfangled low floor buses (even if the Darts seemed pretty cheap/basic in hindsight!).

The idea/prototypical at the time was First specification vehicles gained Barbie while Non-First spec vehicles gained Barbie 2. Obviously in reality it was a mix match. I don't actually think it was the best move as it gives the impression to passengers that the Non-First spec vehicles were inferior. It's for this exact reason that on the whole i don't agree with luxury brands like Gold, Platinum, Emerald, Sapphire etc on local services as it gives the impression that certain routes or areas are inferior.

 

[Rod Harrison]

The idea/prototypical at the time was First specification vehicles gained Barbie while Non-First spec vehicles gained Barbie 2. Obviously in reality it was a mix match. I don't actually think it was the best move as it gives the impression to passengers that the Non-First spec vehicles were inferior. It's for this exact reason that on the whole i don't agree with luxury brands like Gold, Platinum, Emerald, Sapphire etc on local services as it gives the impression that certain routes or areas are inferior.

I couldn’t agree more with your comment on Gold, Sapphire etc. Good to see that Stagecoach seemed to have stopped Gold branding. My view on First is that their dull branding didn’t help their business as not exactly inviting compared particularly to Stagecoach and also to Arriva.

 

[freetoview33]

I couldn’t agree more with your comment on Gold, Sapphire etc. Good to see that Stagecoach seemed to have stopped Gold branding. My view on First is that their dull branding didn’t help their business as not exactly inviting compared particularly to Stagecoach and also to Arriva.

I agree but I guess routes like the 66 Swindon to Oxford is good for Gold branding.

 

[Goldfish62]

The thing was that in Badgerline days, they were very good at buying large numbers of relatively basic new vehicles, whether that be Merc 709s, Lances, Darts or Olympians, or earlier Olympians and Lynxes. Therefore, the age profiles of many of the fleets were quite decent in the mid to late 1990s.

This is the trick that Stagecoach have always used. Buy minimum spec, but use bright colours to make them look better than they are. It's worked, although to my mind the Stagecoach livery and interior now look dated and cheap.

 

[Mwanesh]

I think the Stagecoach livery is ok .They dont need to change it that much. It only needs variations .

 

[Jordan Adam]

This is the trick that Stagecoach have always used. Buy minimum spec, but use bright colours to make them look better than they are. It's worked, although to my mind the Stagecoach livery and interior now look dated and cheap.

The Stagecoach interior is designed to reflect the dress sense of their main passenger market... Chavs!

Sarcasm...

I think the Stagecoach livery is ok .They dont need to change it that much. It only needs variations .

Beachball looks outdated, weathers badly and doesn't suit modern buses at all. Especially not E200MMC's.

 

[overthewater]

What is wrong with irn bru...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I couldn’t agree more with your comment on Gold, Sapphire etc. Good to see that Stagecoach seemed to have stopped Gold branding. My view on First is that their dull branding didn’t help their business as not exactly inviting compared particularly to Stagecoach and also to Arriva.

I'm not so certain. I've heard the same argument against route branding in that by promoting a service you are, by default, disadvantaging another. Does Tesco Finest mean that, by definition, standard Tesco is rubbish?

However, my personal view is that there is nothing wrong in the promotion of certain routes if that is where the growth is. For instance, the Gold S6 Swindon to Oxford is a case in point. That was a route with growth potential (helped by the development of villages and towns on the route) and they have sought to promote that and have done very successfully. Conversely, you're not going to get that with a route like Swindon to Tidworth where you could do the same but the potential just isn't there to grow the market.

What I'm not a fan of is the budget option - back to Tesco again. We've seen this with MagicBus and, in various other instances with BudgetBus with British Bus back in the day. Those are really just competitive spoilers for the most part and seem to be dumbing down. Standard should be good, Gold should be even better - though you reach a point where what was seen as exceptional (e.g. wifi, USB charging etc) becomes standard anyway.

Where I do agree with you is the level of "invitingness" of the standard First offering. I mentioned it a year ago when having had a trip around Greater Manchester where getting onto a First e400 on a wet day in Bolton with the grey eLeather and lack of any promotion was really not inviting at all.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is the trick that Stagecoach have always used. Buy minimum spec, but use bright colours to make them look better than they are. It's worked, although to my mind the Stagecoach livery and interior now look dated and cheap.

To be honest, they have always invested and really screwed down the price. Consistently, they have been the cheapest travel in TAS surveys. I do agree that the beachball image is now getting a little dated and I'm less taken with bright orange headrests on high backed seats. Something more muted would be more restful and I do like the more recent Gold spec on the mmcs.

 

[carlberry]

Scottish legislation allows it. English legislation doesn’t

According to the Scottish parliament current Scottish legislation dosent allow councils to setup new bus companies. However they are debating a bill that would allow it if it became law.

 

[tbtc]

The idea/prototypical at the time was First specification vehicles gained Barbie while Non-First spec vehicles gained Barbie 2. Obviously in reality it was a mix match. I don't actually think it was the best move as it gives the impression to passengers that the Non-First spec vehicles were inferior. It's for this exact reason that on the whole i don't agree with luxury brands like Gold, Platinum, Emerald, Sapphire etc on local services as it gives the impression that certain routes or areas are inferior.

I'd respectfully disagree.

New standards of buses are being introduced every year, what was once "luxury" (low floor, non-bench seats) is now "standard", so new improvements happen (free wifi, leather seats, plugs, USB chargers)... in a few years time these too will be standard as the oldest buses are scrapped and replaced by more modern ones. Remember when "Super Low Floor" used to be a boast rather than something we take for granted.

So I don't see a problem in highlighting the buses with a better standard of service, it makes them more noticeable, it turns heads (rather than having everything painted the same). Since depots will generally only receive new vehicles in small amounts (other than the occasional transformation in places like Leeds), the new vehicles are often just for one or two routes (e.g. in Sheffield, First got some Streetdecks and Streetlites for the 1a/56 last year). Putting a special livery/ promotion on the new vehicles is a good way of highlighting their presence (rather than have them look like the fifteen year old buses, to an average member of the public) without the need to route brand them (thus restricting their use/ causing confusion when they stray onto other routes).

We are a country that copes with market differentiation - the same supermarket selling various levels of quality/price on the same kind of object - the same chain having different levels of "budget"/"luxury" shops (e.g. Superdrug and Savers are part of the same company) or selling the same kind of product under different names ("Sure" and "Lynx" are made by the same company) - I don't know why transport would be any different.

There are always going to be some bus routes with younger vehicles (with better features) that provide an evening/Sunday service and some bus routes that run five/six days a week and finish at teatime - people will always find a way of grumbling that the grass is greener and that other routes get a better deal - why not boast about the improvements and paint the newest buses in an eyecatching livery, rather than treating every vehicle the same (so that people won't have their heads turned by improvements)?

 

[radamfi]

There are always going to be some bus routes with younger vehicles (with better features) that provide an evening/Sunday service and some bus routes that run five/six days a week and finish at teatime - people will always find a way of grumbling that the grass is greener and that other routes get a better deal - why not boast about the improvements and paint the newest buses in an eyecatching livery, rather than treating every vehicle the same (so that people won't have their heads turned by improvements)?

It has long been accepted, at least in the UK outside London, that a lot of money needs to be spent on branding and liveries. Is there concrete evidence that branding actually leads to quantifiable increases in patronage?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It has long been accepted, at least in the UK outside London, that a lot of money needs to be spent on branding and liveries. Is there concrete evidence that branding actually leads to quantifiable increases in patronage?

Yes.

On example that comes readily to mind was launch of the Mendip Explorer, a branding of the Street to Bristol service. No change to frequency, no change to route, no change to vehicles, no major expansion in housing on the route. Yet the launch of better promotion saw a double digit growth in patronage.

Such was the growth that they did consider increasing the frequency from half hourly to every 20 mins. However, they instead elected to modify the entrance to Wells depot to allow double deckers to be allocated in place of single deck Volvos, and that has permitted more marketing and more growth.

In fact, the Volvos went to work the Wells to Bath corridor, did get a light spruce up and such has been the growth, they are now moving on, replaced by deckers.

That’s not to say that branding is some silver bullet. The product and market need to be right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the trick that Stagecoach have always used. Buy minimum spec, but use bright colours to make them look better than they are. It's worked, although to my mind the Stagecoach livery and interior now look dated and cheap.

I think the interior (particularly the plastic seat version) does look cheap and always did, but the livery itself is one of those long-lasting ones - it and its variants still look good to me years on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Beachball looks outdated, weathers badly and doesn't suit modern buses at all. Especially not E200MMC's.

Comme ca?

Stagey E200MMC

I think that looks great. A dark window band (yes, I know it's the actual windows) enhances any livery. Though the blue at the front looks a bit odd, it should have come about 6" further back to meet the black, maybe even swept up to it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has long been accepted, at least in the UK outside London, that a lot of money needs to be spent on branding and liveries. Is there concrete evidence that branding actually leads to quantifiable increases in patronage?

Even though I am a fan of network benefits and connectivity like you are, I'd say yes, it does. Buses are moving billboards, as advertisers have long appreciated. Why not use them to advertise the bus service itself too?

Let's use MK's route 8 as an example:
https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/globalassets/image-galleries/south-east/milton-keynes-col-cod-map.pdf

It's a decent local bus service running on a good frequency for MK, though it suffers from classic Arriva tattiness.

But if it was branded up as, say, "The Willen Lakesider", I think people would see it and think along the lines of "Well, there's a decent(ish) pub at Willen, we could use it to get up there then we could both have a drink with dinner?"

Of course it serves a lot more than that, not least it connects two of the main non-centre shopping areas across the centre itself. But that's more "local bus for local people" type stuff - people likely already know that. What the branding could do is generate leisure custom.

 

[Rod Harrison]

Even though I am a fan of network benefits and connectivity like you are, I'd say yes, it does. Buses are moving billboards, as advertisers have long appreciated. Why not use them to advertise the bus service itself too?

Let's use MK's route 8 as an example:
https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/globalassets/image-galleries/south-east/milton-keynes-col-cod-map.pdf

It's a decent local bus service running on a good frequency for MK, though it suffers from classic Arriva tattiness.

But if it was branded up as, say, "The Willen Lakesider", I think people would see it and think along the lines of "Well, there's a decent(ish) pub at Willen, we could use it to get up there then we could both have a drink with dinner?"

Of course it serves a lot more than that, not least it connects two of the main non-centre shopping areas across the centre itself. But that's more "local bus for local people" type stuff - people likely already know that. What the branding could do is generate leisure custom.

Stagecoach has a good brand which does well in customer surveys. However, branding for routes, gold, hybrid, magic bus does become confusing when buses are used all over the place. First have started on more route/local branding but, again, all sorts of buses can end up on the wrong routes leading to some confusion. Mind you I do like the new Leeds branding which is much better than the dull corporate one. Maybe the local bus company approach of Go Ahead and Transdev is better but not as cost effective when transferring stock between subsidiaries when a repaint is then required.

 

[Tom B]

The problem always seemed to be, as Doug referenced in one of the posts above, First had an idea, did something radical, then got bored and forgot about it a few weeks later and moved on to the next shiny thing.

When they bought out Mainline, they brought in a batch of B10BLEs in Barbie spec, and repainted many of the latterly purchased Mainline low floor single deckers into the same livery. Then their was a massive publicity campaign when the "Overground"/"Metro" was introduced, complete with route branding for several key routes. Inevitably, buses would be out on the wrong route, which caused confusion.

Then, they invested a fortune retrofitting a load of buses with early LED matrix displays, most of which failed early on. It was quite amusing when a driver would turn up at the terminus from the depot, the driver would pull an advert panel off and scribble the route number on the back and chuck it in the window. I always thought that if they can't get the basics right (destination displays, clean vehicles etc) there's little point trying to do fancy stuff...

Thing is, even their flagship Barbie livery was only universal in the Mainline fleet by c.2006, 8 years after they took over. If they were wanting to make an impact, a wholescale programme over a much shorter period would have been more impressive. They did a programme then to repaint the final vehicles, which included Dominators which were being withdrawn in a couple of months time.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the interior (particularly the plastic seat version) does look cheap and always did, but the livery itself is one of those long-lasting ones - it and its variants still look good to me years on.

I think part of it is because Stagecoach regularly repaint buses and keep them clean. Unlike First!

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes.

On example that comes readily to mind was launch of the Mendip Explorer, a branding of the Street to Bristol service. No change to frequency, no change to route, no change to vehicles, no major expansion in housing on the route. Yet the launch of better promotion saw a double digit growth in patronage.

Such was the growth that they did consider increasing the frequency from half hourly to every 20 mins. However, they instead elected to modify the entrance to Wells depot to allow double deckers to be allocated in place of single deck Volvos, and that has permitted more marketing and more growth.

In fact, the Volvos went to work the Wells to Bath corridor, did get a light spruce up and such has been the growth, they are now moving on, replaced by deckers.

That’s not to say that branding is some silver bullet. The product and market need to be right.

I agree 100% with all that.

The bottom line is that route branding costs. Operators wouldn't do it if they didn't think they'd get a return on their investment.