First Group: General Discussion

[Dentonian]

First are nationally pursuing an agenda in moving both to non-cash sales via contactless payment, and also moving people to m-tickets via a variance between on-bus ticket and m-ticket prices. For instance, the Bristol inner day ticket increased in November from £4.00 to £4.50 for on-bus sales but was frozen at £4.00 for m-tickets. That was painted as being a discount vs. an inevitable fare increase though it can equally be argued as a surcharge for those poorer in society who don't have smartphones/a debit card.

"Education" is not meant as a pejorative term - perhaps more accurately, it is a way of shaping demand etc. However, the way in which we are living our lives is changing. That is clear. Where mobile phones were big and bulky and expensive, the technology moved massively in 10 years so by the end of the 20th century, they were massively more accessible. The same is the case with smartphones - PAYG phones can be bought for £50 and as for a wifi signal, that isn't a requirement. A 4G signal will suffice.

Security concerns are understandable and such systems should be robust and safe. So should ATMs, internet banking and, indeed, the whole banking system.

However, it is the clear direction of travel (no pun) and whilst we progress to a cash free environment, the steps to do so should be done with sufficient sensitivity as to be inclusive not exclusive.

As long as your last paragraph remains the case then that's faor enough. BTW, my phone (which cost more than £50) can only get 3G - and even that is intermittent; usually "H" which is rubbish and I've forgotten what it stands for.

 

[radamfi]

BTW, my phone (which cost more than £50) can only get 3G - and even that is intermittent; usually "H" which is rubbish and I've forgotten what it stands for.

"H" stands for HSPA or HSDPA, essentially a faster evolution of 3G. Even basic 3G should be good enough for a mobile phone ticket app. A new 4G phone can be had for £50, but you can probably get a second hand 3G one for next to nothing now. However, some apps may need to run on a reasonably modern version of Android, which would rule out many old phones.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Every transport system which has off bus ticketing that I can think of has a way of buying tickets off bus in cash. Many operators in the world have operated without driver ticket sales decades before contactless bank cards or smartphones were invented, without controversy.

The whole point of encouraging off bus ticketing is to increase ridership and thus reduce car use. Why else would public transport authorities across the world pursue that policy?

Not strictly true. That is doubtless a consideration but there are other issues in terms of security and pilferage. Moving to non-cash handling on public transport obviously improves that. Also, whilst Netherlands may be the high water point, experience across Europe shows there to be great variability in the ease of purchasing offbus.

However, we are getting seriously off topic.

The fact is that First are pursuing a policy of encouraging off bus m-tickets as well as having contactless. In Bristol, it is particularly pointed as a means of normalising it, achieving a tipping point so it becomes the default option; probably linked to Metrobus.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Take this with a pinch of salt as I only overheard what was said...

A couple of drivers were talking on the bus home tonight and from what I heard, 25 E400MMCs are coming to Glasgow in April, the 51 plated Tridents are leaving/disposed of and the 53 played Tridents could be going to different operations and the potential of more stuff coming up from down south.

I'm sure they said Levantes were going to Aberdeen, but yet again that could also be a rumour. Just need to wait and see if anything happens come April time.

 

[overthewater]

It's a complete and utter waste of time shipping off the 53 plate tridents if the replacement stock isn't Euro 6 / 2014 plate or higher; thats some swap ie to move 10 year old buses around.

 

[route101]

Take this with a pinch of salt as I only overheard what was said...

A couple of drivers were talking on the bus home tonight and from what I heard, 25 E400MMCs are coming to Glasgow in April, the 51 plated Tridents are leaving/disposed of and the 53 played Tridents could be going to different operations and the potential of more stuff coming up from down south.

I'm sure they said Levantes were going to Aberdeen, but yet again that could also be a rumour. Just need to wait and see if anything happens come April time.

There is a blue levante sitting caley 2 depot . Theres a quite a lot of 5 plated tridents still operating , the x regs ones went quietly but nothing seemed to replace them .

 

[Surreyman]

It's a complete and utter waste of time shipping off the 53 plate tridents if the replacement stock isn't Euro 6 / 2014 plate or higher; thats some swap ie to move 10 year old buses around.

Begs a bigger question, Scottish Government are committed to LEZs for Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow, with a launch date of 2020 (no specific date that I can find), exact geography/boundaries still to be decided - presumably city centres and some.
England have just announced (Green Bus Fund) lots of cash for Euro 6 upgrades for English LEZ cities plus many others with air quality problems.
Sticking with Firstbus (In Scotland) and their large elderly fleets, allowing for some new vehicles to be ordered, I can only guess that Holyrood is going to have to come up with funding to Retrofit the older Bus fleets to Euro 6 spec, I assume it would only make sense to Retrofit vehicles which were say, no more than 7/8 years old? - These vehicles would already be built to Euro 5 spec, yet the Glasgow fleet has many vehicles much older than this, does this mean that in the case of Glasgow (& to a lessor extent Aberdeen)First are going to have organize a major reshuffle of vehicles from around the UK in order to find suitable buses to upgrade?
I accept that they may not have to upgrade 100% of fleet as not all routes go into the centre?

 

[route101]

Take this with a pinch of salt as I only overheard what was said...

A couple of drivers were talking on the bus home tonight and from what I heard, 25 E400MMCs are coming to Glasgow in April, the 51 plated Tridents are leaving/disposed of and the 53 played Tridents could be going to different operations and the potential of more stuff coming up from down south.

I'm sure they said Levantes were going to Aberdeen, but yet again that could also be a rumour. Just need to wait and see if anything happens come April time.

The 53 plates are a bit better than the tridents . They still stay for the most part on ex parkhead routes . The tridents are suffering , been on a few breakdowns of late .

 

[Dentonian]

Begs a bigger question, Scottish Government are committed to LEZs for Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow, with a launch date of 2020 (no specific date that I can find), exact geography/boundaries still to be decided - presumably city centres and some.
England have just announced (Green Bus Fund) lots of cash for Euro 6 upgrades for English LEZ cities plus many others with air quality problems.
Sticking with Firstbus (In Scotland) and their large elderly fleets, allowing for some new vehicles to be ordered, I can only guess that Holyrood is going to have to come up with funding to Retrofit the older Bus fleets to Euro 6 spec, I assume it would only make sense to Retrofit vehicles which were say, no more than 7/8 years old? - These vehicles would already be built to Euro 5 spec, yet the Glasgow fleet has many vehicles much older than this, does this mean that in the case of Glasgow (& to a lessor extent Aberdeen)First are going to have organize a major reshuffle of vehicles from around the UK in order to find suitable buses to upgrade?
I accept that they may not have to upgrade 100% of fleet as not all routes go into the centre?

This is a problem throughout First, with the possible exception of Leeds and Bristol. The majority of the Manchester fleet, for instance is 9 years old or more - not sure when their Euro4s kicked in in terms of B9 Geminis - with their newest non-Vantage buses now almost 4 years old.

 

[cactustwirly]

This is a problem throughout First, with the possible exception of Leeds and Bristol. The majority of the Manchester fleet, for instance is 9 years old or more - not sure when their Euro4s kicked in in terms of B9 Geminis - with their newest non-Vantage buses now almost 4 years old.

Leicester has a good fleet, with the exception of the 02 plate Eclipses which are a bit long in the tooth.
& the 05 Eclipses could do with a refurbishment.

It's not all about age, it's all about the quality of the vehicle, and First buses are much better specced than Stagecoach & Arriva buses.
Although Stagecoach probably has the newest fleet (they still have some old clapped out darts around Peterborough) they are very cheap and poorly specced.

Ie a 5 year old Mercedes or BMW is better than a brand new Fiat IMO.

 

[Robertj21a]

Can any 'Euro' engine be upgraded to Euro 6, or just those already Euro 5 ? Presumably, there's a point where it wouldn't be cost effective anyway.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Was confirmed ages ago that 23501 - 23504 (Levantes) are for First Aberdeen Coach Hire. 501/2 have been here since last August and are being repainted currently (23501 already done). All 4 will be required here for when the Rail Replacement contracts start in May.

 

[overthewater]

Even if there did Upgrade 150 buses to get them to Euro 6, you'll probably need 150 new buses on top of that to get somewhere to comply with LEZ

 

[Surreyman]

Can any 'Euro' engine be upgraded to Euro 6, or just those already Euro 5 ? Presumably, there's a point where it wouldn't be cost effective anyway.

I have seen adverts from various 'Engine Emission' specialist companies, which seem to indicate that they can upgrade almost anything, but as you say, I can't see how it would make sense on vehicles beyond a certain age. The irony being that in the short term, Euro 5 gets upgraded to Euro 6, whilst older vehicles soldier on until replaced.
I wonder if some of Firsts 'less well performing' companies might receive a cascade of older B7/Trident/Dart/older B7RLE in exchange for post '59 reg Euro 5 for upgrade?
A wicked thought; given Manchesters current 'huge' profit margins and Andy Burnhams hints about some form of re-regulation whats to stop First from transferring Manchesters entire fleet of '12 reg E400s to Glasgow in exchange for Glasgows B7 fleet? (Tongue in cheek, only maybe!).

 

[overthewater]

I wonder if some of Firsts 'less well performing' companies might receive a cascade of older B7/Trident/Dart/older B7RLE in exchange for post '59 reg Euro 5 for upgrade?
A wicked thought; given Manchesters current 'huge' profit margins and Andy Burnhams hints about some form of re-regulation whats to stop First from transferring Manchesters entire fleet of '12 reg E400s to Glasgow in exchange for Glasgows B7 fleet? (Tongue in cheek, only maybe!).

Are those 12 reg euro 4?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Aberdeen would happily swap it's 26 Streetlites for 26 B7RLEs :P

Are those 12 reg euro 4?

Euro 5.

 

[Volvodart]

Begs a bigger question, Scottish Government are committed to LEZs for Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow, with a launch date of 2020 (no specific date that I can find), exact geography/boundaries still to be decided - presumably city centres and some.
England have just announced (Green Bus Fund) lots of cash for Euro 6 upgrades for English LEZ cities plus many others with air quality problems.
Sticking with Firstbus (In Scotland) and their large elderly fleets, allowing for some new vehicles to be ordered, I can only guess that Holyrood is going to have to come up with funding to Retrofit the older Bus fleets to Euro 6 spec, I assume it would only make sense to Retrofit vehicles which were say, no more than 7/8 years old? - These vehicles would already be built to Euro 5 spec, yet the Glasgow fleet has many vehicles much older than this, does this mean that in the case of Glasgow (& to a lessor extent Aberdeen)First are going to have organize a major reshuffle of vehicles from around the UK in order to find suitable buses to upgrade?
I accept that they may not have to upgrade 100% of fleet as not all routes go into the centre?

Of course it is not just a problem for First. If it comes to Aberdeen, the most polluted road in Aberdeen is the one which Stagecoach Bluebird uses to get to the bus station, so virtually all the Aberdeen allocation will need to comply (maybe excluding a very few at outstations which should not come into Aberdeen in service) together with all the Buchan and Moray buses and coaches coming into Aberdeen.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Can any 'Euro' engine be upgraded to Euro 6, or just those already Euro 5 ? Presumably, there's a point where it wouldn't be cost effective anyway.

As reported elsewhere, various fleet in the West e.g. 2009 B9s are being upgraded - https://travelwest.info/bus/funding...ons-across-bristol-bath-south-gloucestershire

 

[Robertj21a]

Anyone have a rough idea of when volume production of Euro 3 and 4 started/finished ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Anyone have a rough idea of when volume production of Euro 3 and 4 started/finished ?

Ta dah!

• Euro 1 (1993)
• Euro 2 (1996)
• Euro 3 (2000)
• Euro 4 (2005)
• Euro 5 (2009)
• Euro 6 (2014)

 

[Robertj21a]

Ta dah!

• Euro 1 (1993)
• Euro 2 (1996)
• Euro 3 (2000)
• Euro 4 (2005)
• Euro 5 (2009)
• Euro 6 (2014)

Well done that man !!

So, most probably only Euro 5 are likely to be really cost effective.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well done that man !!

So, most probably only Euro 5 are likely to be really cost effective.

One of the routes proposed is the 17 in South Glos - currently operated by 2005 B7TLs!

 

[Surreyman]

Of course it is not just a problem for First. If it comes to Aberdeen, the most polluted road in Aberdeen is the one which Stagecoach Bluebird uses to get to the bus station, so virtually all the Aberdeen allocation will need to comply (maybe excluding a very few at outstations which should not come into Aberdeen in service) together with all the Buchan and Moray buses and coaches coming into Aberdeen.

Yes but this is Stagecoach you are talking about, time enough to order some new vehicles, transfer in others and upgrade to Euro 6, the numbers involved are easily manageable.

 

[Surreyman]

Well done that man !!

So, most probably only Euro 5 are likely to be really cost effective.

To be Uber Pedantic, most '59 reg vehicles onward are Euro 5 (a very small number of early '59 reg will be Euro 4, the switch date I think was 1st October 2009).

 

[Robertj21a]

Thanks for the Euro responses. I was just trying to guess what else might be worth upgrading to Euro 6. If the bulk deliveries of Euro 4 finished during 2009 then all those vehicles are already 8+ years old - so probably not worth doing many Euro 4s unless it's a fairly cheap upgrade (?) - or you have a major problem with an elderly fleet (First Group ?).

 

[Volvodart]

A recent trade article said the cost was around £12,000 to upgrade from 4 to 6.

 

[Robertj21a]

A recent trade article said the cost was around £12,000 to upgrade from 4 to 6.

Ah, no doubt First Bus have kept that bookmarked for future use !

 

[Dentonian]

Leicester has a good fleet, with the exception of the 02 plate Eclipses which are a bit long in the tooth.
& the 05 Eclipses could do with a refurbishment.

It's not all about age, it's all about the quality of the vehicle, and First buses are much better specced than Stagecoach & Arriva buses.
Although Stagecoach probably has the newest fleet (they still have some old clapped out darts around Peterborough) they are very cheap and poorly specced.

Ie a 5 year old Mercedes or BMW is better than a brand new Fiat IMO.

I think this depends on either location (again) or perception of what is good or bad spec. In GM, virtually every bus is just bog standard. Arriva are a minor operator, with only a handful of commercial routes left in the county, but a high proportion of the buses left are "Sapphire" branded with reasonable seating. Stagecoach buses do the job or would do if the cushions were replaced from one decade to the next, but First Manchester's fleet not only has a frightening average age (and emissions to match), but the seating ranges from just about acceptable to excrutiating, with the only exception being a fleet of 29 Enviro300s (First East nicked the 30th for a P&R contract in Ipswich) delivered five years ago, and obviously the Vantage fleet.

 

[317 forever]

I have seen this pic with some StreetDecks in First corporate livery. These contrast with those recently delivered to First Leeds in a local 2-tone green with red relief livery.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81709772@N07/39779584825/

 

[route101]

I have seen this pic with some StreetDecks in First corporate livery. These contrast with those recently delivered to First Leeds in a local 2-tone green with red relief livery.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81709772@N07/39779584825/

Wonder if Glasgow will get these ? Glasgow seems to get the E400MMCs that are now mostly off city routes and on Motorway express routes