• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Group: General Discussion

mbonwick

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2006
Messages
6,311
Location
Kendal
Without seeing the exact details I can't really comment, but if they're anything like Stagecoach graduates get moved all around the country to see first hand the different engineering challenges.

As such, you tend to apply to Stagecoach/First HQ - not the local divisions, though they may advertuse the schemes.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
No.

Give them some time, the paralympics have only just finished and the media spotlight is still very much on London and the transport as athletes start to head home.

I'm not sure why First can't make an announcement because of the post-Paralympic journeys? The rest of the business world hasn't stopped moving.
 

mbonwick

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2006
Messages
6,311
Location
Kendal
What you have to remember is that First is a global business - announcing significant divestments amid poor performance while the world's media is focused on London/the UK - and especially the transport contractors - is not a smart move.

Personally I think its good planning from First, protecting their future international hopes as best they can.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
What you have to remember is that First is a global business - announcing significant divestments amid poor performance while the world's media is focused on London/the UK - and especially the transport contractors - is not a smart move.

Personally I think its good planning from First, protecting their future international hopes as best they can.

You're assuming that this will be seen as A Bad Thing - if First think it's good news then why not announce it? It's not like the markets are unaware of the struggles that parts of their bus business face.
 

plannerman

Member
Joined
16 Mar 2010
Messages
129
Location
Driving my desk...
I still don't buy this 'wait till the Olympics has finished' theory. Listed companies are bound by stock exchange rules which effectively say that any major news has to be divulged as soon as possible. Organising the sell-off of an operating division but witholding the news for a significant period would surely breach those rules. In the event of for example First selling a business to Stagecoach, both firms would be in breach. I just can't see their corporate governance departments allowing them to be exposed to that accusation - the fines/sanctions can be severe.
 

robertclark125

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2008
Messages
1,646
Location
Cardenden, Fife
My understanding is the rules state the announcement must be made to the stock exchange 24 hours before the official announcement. The example I gave earlier re Heart of Midlothian and the SPL from 1997, and Rotala PLC with Preston Bus from 2011, are both instances where the LSE was told 24 hours before it was completed.
 

mbonwick

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2006
Messages
6,311
Location
Kendal
You're assuming that this will be seen as A Bad Thing - if First think it's good news then why not announce it? It's not like the markets are unaware of the struggles that parts of their bus business face.

I guess it depends on the sums involved - if they've got a figure in excess of what they anticipated, then its good news.
If things haven't made as much as First wanted, then coupled with the credit warning from S&P, it could be seen as the start of a firesale, rather than controlled divestment...

Nothing illegal in what First/Stagecoach are doing as nothing has been signed yet.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,097
But as you must be aware there no spare buses, so even if there brought a company where are all the.spare buses?

From today onwards there plenty of spares
 

mbonwick

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2006
Messages
6,311
Location
Kendal
Not really - Stagecoach vehicles start going home tomorrow, and don't really get shifting until the weekend.

Remember also that some will be on media work until the end of the month - just like it was the start of July (a month ish before the start of the games) that vehicles entered service down there.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
But as you must be aware there no spare buses, so even if there brought a company where are all the.spare buses?

From today onwards there plenty of spares

There was no requirement for any takeover/ sell off to be immediate - they could announce it today to take effect from the end of the year.

And I presume that the new buses aren't "spare" in that they've been built/bought for specific areas. The only stuff "spare" is the scrapyard bound stuff.
 

robertclark125

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2008
Messages
1,646
Location
Cardenden, Fife
Company takeovers have taken place in the past where the announcement of the takeover is made 6 months before the takeover takes place. An example was when my former employers, now defunct Focus DIY, announced in early 2001 it had acquired Great Mills from RMC, though the takeover and final signing off of the legal documents didn't take place until that May, four months later.

The reason for the timespan is that there may be a cooling off period, where both parties can change minds. In addition, there may be negotiations with staff, management and/or trade unions. There could be an examination of suppliers, customers, and any contracts. A reason for the delay with the acquisition of Great Mills was that RMC, as Great Mills parent company at the time, supplied GM with their aggregates, such as gravel and decorative chippings. Focus used a different supplier, Supamix. In the end, Focus went to a new supplier, Mixit.

To further this on, and explain again why takeovers take a long time to complete, in 2004, Mixit were then taken over by Supamix, although it wasa few months before it was completed. During this time, Supamix had to inform Focus, Dobbies, Klondyke, and Jewsons, who all used Mixit, of the new arrangements, and to inform them of the fact the current contracts would be vaild, but that products would change from Mixit to Supamix, and so there would be changes in range.

And of course Mixit staff found themselves working for supamix, which led to negotiations no doubt.

That example demonstrates why takeovers can often be protracted affairs. It doesn't always work out that long; the 2011 Rotala acquisition of Preston Bus from stagecoach saw Rotala do the examination of staff contracts and suppliers AFTER the acqusition was completed, not before. Which reminds us of something in law that can affect takeovers, ever so slightly, TUPE. Whilst John Asquith of Rotala Preston Bus confirmed to me that takeover went through with no issues, TUPE protects an employees rights if undertakings transfer from one employer to another.

Going back to Focus, when it called in Administrators in May 2011, B&Q bought 31 sites (though the OFT blocked the purchase of one site subsequently), but by buying only the site, the staff at the Focus stores affected all had to reapply for their jobs, as they were being made redundant by the administrators at Focus. B&M homestores bought 10 stores, as did Wickes, and all staff transfered over, and in that instance TUPE covered the staff, namely any new staff could be employed on worse conditions, and worse pay, but the ex Focus staff were still covered by their Focus conditions. However, the staff did have the right to not move if they so wished.

Which is the last thing to consider - you need to know how many staff are going to stay with your new acquisition. It's no good buying a depot, only to find that the staff don't want to join you. But, TUPE exists to encourage staff to stay with their new employer, and to do so under their existing conditions, if they so wish. It can also help keep the dole queue down.
 

MK Tom

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
2,456
Location
Milton Keynes
Is there a reason Leicester hasn't received the new First livery at all yet? Is that a sign about the future of that operation?
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,097
Is there a reason Leicester hasn't received the new First livery at all yet? Is that a sign about the future of that operation?


Nope. Midland part of first Scotland east has none yet either but a major overhaul is due to take place.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
I've found the list of how much each bus operator receives in grants in 2009 (so obviously not up to date)

At the time Chester City Transport (now First's Chester operations) received 169K, while First Halifax (just Halifax not Halifax and Huddersfield) received £1.86M.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/bsog-payment-data/bsog-payment-data.pdf

Any wonder First aren't interested in running buses in a small city for a small fraction of the subsidy they get elsewhere?
 

MCW

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2011
Messages
699
Location
Leicester UK
Is there a reason Leicester hasn't received the new First livery at all yet? Is that a sign about the future of that operation?

who really knows.... I don't know if a new livery would help them in Leicester, we just need a refurbished fleet!

The more I put it through my head the more I'm starting to think that they may well be up to something. they do face competition on some of their routes such as the 54's from Centrebus. Also First dropped? / scaled back their service 22 operations and Centrebus have been operating them to a good success starting a few months back.

But Alas, it is all speculation... we shall wait and see...
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,445
The more I put it through my head the more I'm starting to think that they may well be up to something. they do face competition on some of their routes such as the 54's from Centrebus. Also First dropped? / scaled back their service 22 operations and Centrebus have been operating them to a good success starting a few months back.

It was the death knell for First operation on the 22 when they decided to scale back the evening operations to 1900. If they can't make a profitable route like the 22 work, they really have their work cut out. Either that or they took the p*ss when they scaled back lots of evening services on that occasion in the bid to save money. Many areas were left without an evening service such as Highfields as a result.

Their focus seems to be on the 14 at the moment, having just enhanced daytime frequencies to 7.5 minutes. The only successes they have had in recent years is the incursion of the 38/A into Thurnby Lodge, and possibly the 21A to Hamilton. Everything else new they have done in recent years have been dropped.

Going past the Abbey Road depot the other day reminded me what a magnificent structure that was. Would be a shame if they have to pull out.
 

MCW

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2011
Messages
699
Location
Leicester UK
It was the death knell for First operation on the 22 when they decided to scale back the evening operations to 1900. If they can't make a profitable route like the 22 work, they really have their work cut out. Either that or they took the p*ss when they scaled back lots of evening services on that occasion in the bid to save money. Many areas were left without an evening service such as Highfields as a result.

Their focus seems to be on the 14 at the moment, having just enhanced daytime frequencies to 7.5 minutes. The only successes they have had in recent years is the incursion of the 38/A into Thurnby Lodge, and possibly the 21A to Hamilton. Everything else new they have done in recent years have been dropped.

Going past the Abbey Road depot the other day reminded me what a magnificent structure that was. Would be a shame if they have to pull out.

well they chopped back the 88/A frequency to every 12 minutes from every ten, monday - saturday daytime.

At least the 14 HAS been improved, if First didn't do anything it would be just as bad as before, Arriva don't seem to be bothered on that route. then again... we are talking arriva....

also I think the worse thing they ever did was cut the long through routes into two parts, like the 38 used to be Eyres Monsell to Mowacre Hill. I think that used to operate a lot smoother as well!

in terms of the depot etc. I don't know.... if First left we would either see a stagecoach expansion or we would see centrebus inhabit the depot!!!! either way if they did leave we would definitely need another operator who is ready to go to be able to run the missing routes. It's also pointless getting the council involved as they never do anything right in the bl***y first place! (from my campaign, trust me, I know!)

This all went wrong way back in 1993/94 when LCB/council sould out to GRT group, soon as that happened the whole lot started going t**s up. (same for arriva and Midland Fox)
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,445
if First left we would either see a stagecoach expansion

I don't particularly mind, as they will possibly give Arriva a kick up the backside, and I can see Stagecoach being interested, linking up their Warwickshire operations and Northants operations.

or we would see centrebus inhabit the depot!!!!

God no! I don't mind them at the moment but don't want to see them going mainstream any day soon.

It's also pointless getting the council involved as they never do anything right in the bl***y first place! (from my campaign, trust me, I know!)

Do you have a way to get the Transport team to reply to my letter about incorrect roadside publicity? ;)
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,097
What happened to the great Arriva overhaul that kirk started improvement and also upset both stagecoach and First?

Also isn't Arriva also causing first problems in PMT area, with its Wardle Transport company?
 

MCW

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2011
Messages
699
Location
Leicester UK
I don't particularly mind, as they will possibly give Arriva a kick up the backside, and I can see Stagecoach being interested, linking up their Warwickshire operations and Northants operations.

true I suppose....

God no! I don't mind them at the moment but don't want to see them going mainstream any day soon.

Why not??? I think they're great! I prefer them to arriva!

Do you have a way to get the Transport team to reply to my letter about incorrect roadside publicity? ;)
Sned me a PM about what it was about and I'll have a nag at them, I'm doing a few emails this week.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,097
Well to give you some clue, the depot is stuck with first until at least Xmas, i doubt the TC will allow them to make more changes to the main service until that point.

Whats happened to the announcements for Cumbernauld, Chester and Northampton? OR has alot of people being span a lie and alot of people just getting caught up in it? We're now 6months in to the sell offs and what have we had? Nothing. We're now 4 months into the speedy up sell offs and what do we have? Nothing.

There still £80million still waiting to be raised and it does not seem to be forthcoming, while First continues to changes which does not help a number of depots which still continue to fail to make profits.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,097
I doubt this will cause this, the awful crippling debt from buying greyhound or payment for trains are more likely. But how are first going to solve the basket cases area? How are first going to buy more single deckers? There running out of time.......
 

Scania3379man

Member
Joined
20 Aug 2012
Messages
70
So there is no sell in wigan correct? Mean Wigan carry on on first operation?

Thank you, guys

Martyn
 

Polarbear

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2008
Messages
1,895
Location
Birkenhead
Well to give you some clue, the depot is stuck with first until at least Xmas, i doubt the TC will allow them to make more changes to the main service until that point.

Whats happened to the announcements for Cumbernauld, Chester and Northampton? OR has alot of people being span a lie and alot of people just getting caught up in it? We're now 6months in to the sell offs and what have we had? Nothing. We're now 4 months into the speedy up sell offs and what do we have? Nothing.

There still £80million still waiting to be raised and it does not seem to be forthcoming, while First continues to changes which does not help a number of depots which still continue to fail to make profits.

As regards Chester & Rock Ferry, no news yet as far as I can tell. I overheard some drivers talking about an announcement being made (to both depots) back in July & that is was being held "because of the olympics".
 

robertclark125

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2008
Messages
1,646
Location
Cardenden, Fife
Well I decided to take the bull by the horns (or do a foolish thing, depending on how you see it), and asked Stagecoach Merseyside directly!

You won't be surprised to learn I got a "no comment" from them, but in polite terms!
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,097
Well I decided to take the bull by the horns (or do a foolish thing, depending on how you see it), and asked Stagecoach Merseyside directly!

You won't be surprised to learn I got a "no comment" from them, but in polite terms!

No comment means something is going no, or course anyone would have flat lines said no :D so were back to Square one.
 

Rich McLean

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2012
Messages
1,757
On my recent visit to Plymouth, First seemed to have chopped a lot of routes, which they introduced not too long ago up against competition to CityBus, but have since withdrawn them.

It is rumored that they are looking at withdrawing routes 6 & 7, as much of the route is covered by CityBus 5/5A Plymstock Circular. It's just a question of will Go Ahead pull the route before First do, and personally I think First will can the route in the new year after the Christmas rush if they fail to meet targets
 

Top