First Group: General Discussion

[robertclark125]

In GRT days, didn't they share the same GRT style livery (red and orange bands) and also have a combined management team, based in Leicester?

And I think it was just recently, 2009, that First scaled back some operations in Northampton, and stagecoach replaced those routes.

Just out of interest, what's the population of Northampton? Be interesting to see how it compares with towns here in Fife, such as Dunfermline.

 

[MK Tom]

In GRT days, didn't they share the same GRT style livery (red and orange bands) and also have a combined management team, based in Leicester?

And I think it was just recently, 2009, that First scaled back some operations in Northampton, and stagecoach replaced those routes.

Just out of interest, what's the population of Northampton? Be interesting to see how it compares with towns here in Fife, such as Dunfermline.

Yeah in 2009 First gave up the 3, 5, 27 (now the 9), 22 and 207 to name a few major ones. The 207 had been the last long-distance route run from the Northampton depot. It's now called the 96.

Approximately 210,000 for the urban area going by 2010 estimates. For this reason I apply the same principle I do to MK and resolutely refuse to call such a large place a town.

Northampton and Leicester shared a fleet for a while in GRT and early First days.

 

[robertclark125]

210'000 makes it bigger than Dundee, whos major operator (Nat Ex Dundee) has 120 buses in its fleet, and doesn't face much competition from Stagecoach Strathtay. It would also be roughly the same size as Blackpool, with a municpal operator, and about a little bit smaller than Preston, whose main city operator is enjoying a revivial.

Now, one thought, which springs to mind mentioning Preston. When Stagecoach was requried to sell a smaller Preston Bus by the competition commission, one of the unsuccessul bidders was an employee bid. Which makes this thought come through, could an employee bid for any areas at risk, such as Northampton, be possible?

 

[overthewater]

I doubt it would be, unlike Preston, First in Northampton is not made making money and its routes, fleet etc are all down at the heal,

Also here is nice pic of I believe a brand new bus in Worcester, I doubt that going to get sold off, now: https://twitter.com/firstbuscoo/status/244009994373189632/photo/1

 

[mbonwick]

It's secondhand, bought via Ensign It's new to First though.

 

[overthewater]

It's secondhand, bought via Ensign It's new to First though.

Do you know how many has been brought and what regs there area?

Also What a shame there have those bloody awful Urban90 seats

 

[Tomonthetrain]

It's only Redditch and Kidderminster that are going.

 

[overthewater]

It's only Redditch and Kidderminster that are going.

For some strange reason I doubt these depot will. I'm as starting to think we won't see much sell off this year.

 

[bb21]

In GRT days, didn't they share the same GRT style livery (red and orange bands) and also have a combined management team, based in Leicester?

That was still the case many years later. Ticket rolls pre-standardisation was printed with both First Leicester and First Northampton names.

 

[Polarbear]

For some strange reason I doubt these depot will. I'm as starting to think we won't see much sell off this year.

I think Chester & Rock Ferry will be going. It appears to be an open secret that Stagecoach have been more than interested & an announcement is expected fairly soon.

Given the state & age of the majority of First's fleet in this area, I'll be glad to see the back of them. The vehicles are generally sound mechanically but the bodywork on many is akin to a colander & when it rains, some of the older Scania's may as well be open top...!!

 

[overthewater]

Im lead to believe its only Rock Ferry Stagecoach are after.

 

[robertclark125]

Someone suggested Wigan may be up for sale. First Manchester only opened their new Wigan depot last year, so I would find that a surprising move if they did sell it.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Most of Dorset has gone. A wad of services going to South West Coaches or Wilts + Dorset and probably the most significant service in Bridport the 45 being completely wiped away!
Apologies if this has been mentioned already, I'm not looking through 29 pages

 

[overthewater]

Wigan is on that list, which I have some doubt. I think that list had some depots which are never going to get sold off, to put people of the track. First needs to sell at least ONE BIG depot to many any decent money: That list doest have anything from Scotland, which had umpteen depots which made no money.

 

[Blindtraveler]

May be there gunna do Scotland seperately, maybe all to one opperater? Could be a way of avoiding CC if they take on a ton of areas and routes some in areas with no competition and some with loads?

 

[tbtc]

I'm surprised that there's been no suggestion of getting rid of the Borders operation - surely this can't be making sufficient money for First?

 

[overthewater]

I'm surprised that there's been no suggestion of getting rid of the Borders operation - surely this can't be making sufficient money for First?

Im lead to believe it does make money, hence the reason said depot has the newest fleet in the whole company. Following is where the problems l

* Livingston makes no money
* Cumbernauled and Blantyre also make nothing,

Add on, Northampton, Chesters and Worcester being the 3 English areas.

It strange that no press stories have appeared about which first Sub division don't make money this year. Its been said everything that made losses last year still do this year,

 

[185]

And I think you're wrong on the fares as well, take a look at a 'Dayrider' ticket for Northampton:

Stagecoach £ 3.40

http://www.stagecoachbus.co.uk/northampton-dayrider-megarider.aspx

First £ 3.90

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/northampton/tickets/firstday/

And Stagecoach cover more of the town, usually with higher frequencies and run their buses much later into the evening, so to my mind, it really is no contest who offers better value.

Of course, once the competition disappears it will be

Stagecoach £6.10

First £bzzzt ...no buses.

 

[tbtc]

Im lead to believe it does make money, hence the reason said depot has the newest fleet in the whole company

The problem with the Borders operation is that:

• Much of the work in the area is tendered
• There's not a lot of scope for enhancements
• The Borders rail link (if and when it happens) is going to cut into the profits from the X95 - take that away and what's left?

 

[robertclark125]

May be there gunna do Scotland seperately, maybe all to one opperater? Could be a way of avoiding CC if they take on a ton of areas and routes some in areas with no competition and some with loads?

Aberdeent get sold. I know that it's where First are based, and I know you don't have to have operations in the town or city where your UK HQ is (arriva being Sunderland based), but Aberdeen is making money.

 

[Blindtraveler]

can see Nat Ex wanjing Aberdeen, v similar opperation to dundee

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Seriously doubt it

 

[overthewater]

I cant see Aberdeen getting sold either,

 

[MK Tom]

Of course, once the competition disappears it will be

Stagecoach £6.10

First £bzzzt ...no buses.

I've been trying to say this for ages. Stagecoach love having excessive fares and them having the place to themselves will exasperate that. Look at the disgusting £7.50 return on the 89 as an example.

 

[tbtc]

I've been trying to say this for ages. Stagecoach love having excessive fares and them having the place to themselves will exasperate that. Look at the disgusting £7.50 return on the 89 as an example.

Disgusting? It is a sixty mile round trip from Northampton to Milton Keynes, and the fares aren't subsidised (in the way that train fares often are).

 

[MK Tom]

Disgusting? It is a sixty mile round trip from Northampton to Milton Keynes, and the fares aren't subsidised (in the way that train fares often are).

It is a subsidised service - NCC subsidise the sections through Blisworth and Deanshanger and MKC subsidise the section through Kiln Farm. I compared it with other MK-Northampton routes before and yes it is a bit longer so I won't go there again but the single and return fares between Stony and CMK are significantly higher than the Arriva equivalents. People in Old Stratford and Deanshanger and Kiln Farm don't have that choice and are stuck with the very high fares SC charge. Likewise for people travelling to Northampton from any of the stops between Blisworth and Kiln Farm.

Another interesting comparison can be made in price between the Stagecoach Midlands Dayrider and the Arriva Explorer which cover similar sized areas. Or Arriva's £5.50 'Bucks Plus' ticket which covers distances that literally cost twice as much in SC Midlands territory.

 

[overthewater]

Council will have a say on all fares if that 89 is sub, maybe speak with the council.

 

[MK Tom]

Weren't we supposed to get some news today?

 

[mbonwick]

No.

Give them some time, the paralympics have only just finished and the media spotlight is still very much on London and the transport as athletes start to head home.

 

[MK Tom]

No.

Give them some time, the paralympics have only just finished and the media spotlight is still very much on London and the transport as athletes start to head home.

I notice also that First Northampton are taking graduates for engineering placements starting this month. Would that suggest closure is still a while off yet? In the likely event that nobody does buy of course.