TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Glasgow was getting loads of investment when other OpCos weren’t, and the Kernow mmcs will help replace some of the over 100 B9s still in Bristol.
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First Greater Glasgow
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Things have gone full circle in Cumbernauld. Stagecoach successfully eliminated First’s X4/X5 many years ago and now First are taking Stagecoaches X25/25A!
Cumbernauld is a tough town for a bus company to make a decent margin for several reasons.
A high quality rail service is probably the key reason, with no less than 3 stations for a population of less than 60,000. Two stations, Cumbernauld and Greenfaulds, the later with a large free car park, provide a half hourly service into Glasgow in less than 30 minutes. Croy, on the main Glasgow to Edinburgh line, has a huge free car park, with 4 trains an hour to Glasgow, the slowest one taking just 15 minutes. Recognising Croy is also used by commuters who don’t live in the town. These fast and frequent train services are provided by modern electric trains, where you’re virtually guaranteed a seat on every journey, and are way faster than commuting by bus into Glasgow especially at peak times when traffic can be backed up from the M8 onto the M80, seriously impacting bus time reliability.
Cumbernauld is unusual in being served by the 3 big Scottish bus companies, Stagecoach, First and McGills Bluebird, although they run on separate routes, but they share the M80 corridor into Glasgow, which of course is devoid of passengers, unlike a continuous stop start city route. You might get good loads in the peaks, maybe a decent load (just) one way into Glasgow in the morning but the same bus will be carrying fresh air on the way back. Before the M80 was built, buses went to Glasgow via Stepps, stop start like, but there’s no demand for such a slow service now.
Then there’s a plethora of independents operating local services, some commercial, some tendered. So it’s difficult to get any leverage to spread some of the overhead. Given Stagecoach don’t have any significant presence within Glasgow, I’m not surprised they’ve given up.
Cumbernauld was originally built as a new town in the 1960s, designed around the car, with plenty of segregated junctions, and the bus routes to/from the town centre were “loop” routes with no traditional radiating roads from it’s centre. I always thought this was an added problem for designing effective bus routes within the town. From the 1980s onwards private housing was built on the north side of the town and First tried very hard with their original X3, subsequently replaced by a faster X2 into Glasgow, but people preferred the car or Croy station, and First abandoned that part of the town.
Long story short, the town just doesn’t lend itself well to running a successful bus operation.
Cumbernauld is a tough town for a bus company to make a decent margin for several reasons.
A high quality rail service is probably the key reason, with no less than 3 stations for a population of less than 60,000. Two stations, Cumbernauld and Greenfaulds, the later with a large free car park, provide a half hourly service into Glasgow in less than 30 minutes. Croy, on the main Glasgow to Edinburgh line, has a huge free car park, with 4 trains an hour to Glasgow, the slowest one taking just 15 minutes. Recognising Croy is also used by commuters who don’t live in the town. These fast and frequent train services are provided by modern electric trains, where you’re virtually guaranteed a seat on every journey, and are way faster than commuting by bus into Glasgow especially at peak times when traffic can be backed up from the M8 onto the M80, seriously impacting bus time reliability.
Cumbernauld is unusual in being served by the 3 big Scottish bus companies, Stagecoach, First and McGills Bluebird, although they run on separate routes, but they share the M80 corridor into Glasgow, which of course is devoid of passengers, unlike a continuous stop start city route. You might get good loads in the peaks, maybe a decent load (just) one way into Glasgow in the morning but the same bus will be carrying fresh air on the way back. Before the M80 was built, buses went to Glasgow via Stepps, stop start like, but there’s no demand for such a slow service now.
Then there’s a plethora of independents operating local services, some commercial, some tendered. So it’s difficult to get any leverage to spread some of the overhead. Given Stagecoach don’t have any significant presence within Glasgow, I’m not surprised they’ve given up.
Cumbernauld was originally built as a new town in the 1960s, designed around the car, with plenty of segregated junctions, and the bus routes to/from the town centre were “loop” routes with no traditional radiating roads from it’s centre. I always thought this was an added problem for designing effective bus routes within the town. From the 1980s onwards private housing was built on the north side of the town and First tried very hard with their original X3, subsequently replaced by a faster X2 into Glasgow, but people preferred the car or Croy station, and First abandoned that part of the town.
Long story short, the town just doesn’t lend itself well to running a successful bus operation.
If they need more buses some of the West of England buses replaced from Cornwall could come up. The Aberdeen buses will not be available until at least the end of the year depending on the green hydrogen facility being constructed on time.
overthewater
Established Member
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Lets be fair here, there a bit of white washing here, If Cumbernauld was a tough town no one would start a bus war let alone keep it going on for 20 years. Even back in the Midland Scottish/ Kelvin Scottish days route 40/50 were every 10mins from half the town into Glasgow. Plus the 36 which was also every 15mins. Just before the bus war started in 97 you still had a frequent group of services.
It was up until the missing link of the M80 was opened in 2011 when all the service (bar the fife ones) would stop at Moodiesburn crossroads, I think that's what cause some damage to the X25, but overall the journey time was only a few mins more.
Back in the 90s when Fife were running it's Non stop express to Glasgow they started to pick up alot of passengers from the Town centre, so had to put duplicates out. It's mad to think people were going out of thier way to pick up this non stop service. IE alot of people had to switch buses to get the X24/6.
Another important fact was Stagecoach operated coaches for a very long time. Since 2016? they switched to decker's on X25 which annoyed alot of thier customers, you have to wonder how many went back to the trains? The passengers loved those coaches...
Before covid you could operate a successful bus operation, even the independents are having a tough time now. Canavan used to operate
43: Kilsyth - Cumbernauld every 20mins
45: Condorrat - Cumbernauld - Abronhill every 10mins ( that used to compete with First and stagecoach at one point you had 15ph to Abronhill)
Now its one route every 30mins Kilsyth - Condorrat - Cumbernauld - Abronhill
Of course Seafar has lost it's direct bus to Glasgow aswell of late, when Stagecoach pulled the X28, mainly down to driver shortages. Condorrat has managed to hold on because Midland Bluebird reroute its X36/37 to operate via this location instead of Greenfaulds.
Most of the daytime tenders are either train links, or in the case Seafar & Greenfaulds links to the Town centre and in the case of Seafar you could walk it within 5mins.
I’m not whitewashing, just giving a opinion.
The rail services are much improved since the days of Midland/Kelvin. That in my opinion has been the key factor along with the M80 in reducing bus passenger numbers, more so than covid.
The fact is Stagecoach couldn’t make it work. I drive on the M80 a couple of times a week and can assure you there are lots of empty seats on passing buses, alarmingly so off peak, with some buses seemingly empty. Even some peak buses have plenty seats. The same cannot be said of the trains. Im doubtful First will maintain the off peak frequency of the X25/25A for very long.
smtglasgow
Member
Yes, once First get some real passenger data I’m sure they’ll be quick to match resources to demand – and put in an unwieldly AI timetable to bamboozle folk with too. I wonder if concentrating on the X25A variant, but also serving Condorrat all day would work at a lower frequency? My one and only bus journey to Cumbernauld Town Centre was on a bus to North Carbrain and it was a very short walk to the shops. Not exactly conclusive evidence, I know!
The X3 does OK, so hopefully First can work out a level of service on the X25 that is popular and profitable.
duffers2324
Member
my thought on this is if Stagecoach are coming out and saying its a loss making service then i certainly cant see First holding onto it for long either, wouldnt be surprised if it gets culled completely at some point.
overthewater
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There is more chance as others have said, the service will become every 20mins. I also suspect the route will no longer go to Cumbernauld Railway station.
Does anyone know how busy the section is up to the Uni? if there not good either that will get the chop come September aswell. First are not going to take it on if they believe it's not worth it's while.
Does anyone know how busy the section is up to the Uni? if there not good either that will get the chop come September aswell. First are not going to take it on if they believe it's not worth it's while.
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I think they should of ordered more deckers than the E200evs, Typical FG though.
computerSaysNo
Established Member
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- 14 Dec 2018
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- 1,666
Why didn't Stagecoach try reducing the frequency or using more efficient vehicles before withdrawing entirely? (is there a simple answer?)
Metal Mickey
Member
Back in the late 80s/early 90s:
Kelvin Scottish / Kelvin Central Buses
40 Abronhill - Kildrum - Seafar - Condorrat Village - Moodiesburn - Muirhead - Stepps - Alexandra Park - Glasgow - every 30 mins
50 Abronhill - Kildrum - North Carbrain - Condorrat Ring Road then as 40 - every 30 mins
36 Abronhill - Kildrum - Town Centre - Westfield then as 40 - every 15 mins
The 36/40/50 combined from Moodiesburn onwards to form an every 7/8 mins frequency.
Strathclyde’s Buses
11/11A - Abronhill - Kildrum - Town Centre (11) or North Carbrain (11A) - Condorrat - Moodiesburn - Muirhead - Stepps - Royston Road - City Centre - Great Western Road - Knightswood - Yoker - Clydebank - Every 15 mins
Then Kelvin had the market largely to themselves during the mid 90s and had introduced the X5 to run Monday to Saturday every 30 mins before it was increased to run all week when Stagecoach had introduced the X25 in 1997.
But during the years when there were two operators competing on the Cumbernauld to Glasgow corridor, 1986 to 1993 Kelvin & Strathclyde and 1997 to 2016 First & Stagecoach, profit margins would’ve been almost non existent. The X25 (as well as its competitors/predecessors) relied heavily on peak time commuters and since Covid with hybrid working it would’ve lost a lot of that trade. Also, the ongoing decline of Cumbernauld Town Centre would have had quite an impact on local traffic from Abronhill and Kildrum.
Seems First Glasgow has now found a solution to update the internal signs on the re-powers.
Was on 71042 today and it's been removed. Not a very professional job of course, just covered with insulating tape which won't last very long
Other option and one I'm completely forgetting is the MMCs from Scotstoun moving to Caledonia once they get all their NewPowers. Much easier job.
JumpinTrainz
Established Member
- Joined
- 30 Jul 2018
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- 1,930
I wonder if they’ll keep the luggage racks on the MMCs
AndrewTaylor95
Member
Seems to be taking forever for that to happen, I hope the MMCs don't get moved elsewhere in a last minute change of plans, they're 78 seaters as well so 4 seats more than the rest of the other examples, Take luggage racks out and you'll get 80 seats
What is the capacity of the street decks
AndrewTaylor95
Member
69 so considerably less
cheers
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Why is scotstoun depot giving cally depot 400mmcs, when they have not recieved all of their newpowers yet, madness
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JumpinTrainz
Established Member
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Which ones? I only know of 34361 going over which was always the odd one out in a sense
AndrewTaylor95
Member
There's none of the 19 plates are at Caley yet, only SO68 HFE 34361
34400 is tracking on the 60, am sure i seen other ones to on the 60
AndrewTaylor95
Member
34400 has always been a Caley bus with some of that batch being 68 and 19 plates and some went South to Slough a few years ago, 34401 is the last 19 plate in Caley then 34402 being the only 72 plate Diesel, we're talking about the 19 plates at Scotstoun that where originally bought for the 77
Ok thanks
AndrewTaylor95
Member
They can't be used on those routes for legal reasons due to the bridge on Maryhill Road displaying 14"3', So you won't see them on those routes again
When did that happen? I thought the bridge was higher than that, they use to get under it for years with no issues.
AndrewTaylor95
Member
It's always displayed 14"3', They shouldn't have been going under it in the first place due to the Geminis being 14"5', Was the reason the X10s by McGill's never got the 62 plate E400s that they where originally bought for either as they're 14"6'
I’m still surprised that it wasn’t an issue for years, and that the Gemini was such a common bus for years on those routes. (I mean, your pfp is one of the 61 branded ones).
That makes me wonder, did the Plaxton Presidents and ALX400s also break that rule too?
AndrewTaylor95
Member
Anything over the height of the bridge broke the Rules so of course, They where full height deckers as well
Huh, I wonder what happened for First Glasgow to actually care about it?
It seems like nobody had issues with it for 25-26 years when the B7TL Geminis were brand new (maybe even before that, back with the older Strathclyde buses).