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First Greater Glasgow

PaulMc7

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9 Jul 2019
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I am still at a complete loss as to why "variety" is something that needs to be added to any bus network :rolleyes:
If you want more people to use buses then it's essential to have variety because people have different needs from a bus service than others. I'd imagine a lot of people aren't keen on having to catch 2 buses to go anywhere either due to the unpredictability caused by roadworks, congestion and the driver shortage either so if you can make more routes possible by only 1 bus then that always helps.

A reliable app and taking customer feedback on board will be essential with that as well though in this day and age.
 
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XAM2175

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If you want more people to use buses then it's essential to have variety because people have different needs from a bus service than others. I'd imagine a lot of people aren't keen on having to catch 2 buses to go anywhere either due to the unpredictability caused by roadworks, congestion and the driver shortage either so if you can make more routes possible by only 1 bus then that always helps.
I strongly suggest that you choose a phrase other than "add some variety" for this, because that phrase makes you sound like a spotter moaning about how everything's been the same for too long and you're bored of it now. Change purely for the sake of change in a transport network is an exceptionally bad thing because passengers want consistency and stability, and chopping and changing in order to chase new passengers needs to be done with care if it's to avoid frustrating and alienating your current passengers.

I'm also not entirely sure that there are many potential one-seat journeys that are both 1) not currently being provided, and 2) worth providing. If you're saying "make more routes possible by only 1 bus" as meaning "make more cross-city routes" then I disagree vehemently; there are already too many and "due to the unpredictability caused by roadworks, congestion and the driver shortage" (thanks for that) they're more inefficient and unreliable than ever.
 

PaulMc7

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I strongly suggest that you choose a phrase other than "add some variety" for this, because that phrase makes you sound like a spotter moaning about how everything's been the same for too long and you're bored of it now. Change purely for the sake of change in a transport network is an exceptionally bad thing because passengers want consistency and stability, and chopping and changing in order to chase new passengers needs to be done with care if it's to avoid frustrating and alienating your current passengers.

I'm also not entirely sure that there are many potential one-seat journeys that are both 1) not currently being provided, and 2) worth providing. If you're saying "make more routes possible by only 1 bus" as meaning "make more cross-city routes" then I disagree vehemently; there are already too many and "due to the unpredictability caused by roadworks, congestion and the driver shortage" (thanks for that) they're more inefficient and unreliable than ever.
If that's how people take that phrase then they'd be very wrong then. It wouldn't be purely for the sake of change. I mentioned actually getting feedback and discussing things with the public for this reason too.

Change for the sake of it is awful but this network doesn't have much stability due to the fact First won't run timetables that they have the driver resources for. Being 100% honest about the resources that they do have would be a huge start in all honesty and that's where variety comes in as you'd be able to offer more journeys with less resources being required.

Buses being late is unavoidable but not turning up at all is avoidable unless it's a last minute breakdown, last minute sickness or an incident on route. First could make things easier for themselves and I will add that they're not the only company who could by just being realistic with timetables and service frequencies. It's getting slightly better earlier in the week but the night buses especially drain so much out of a Friday and Saturday that cancellations pop up all over the place.

Instead of running timetables they might get to eventually when drivers are trained and have their licences, run what you have and work towards increases only when the resources are there to do so. The public might hate First a bit less if that happens. The other thing to accelerate this would be to be the best employer they can be and make sure all depot management at each depot are as good as they can be instead of it being a lottery like it currently is.
 
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Brimfulofasha

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31 Mar 2020
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37
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Glasgow
I strongly suggest that you choose a phrase other than "add some variety" for this, because that phrase makes you sound like a spotter moaning about how everything's been the same for too long and you're bored of it now. Change purely for the sake of change in a transport network is an exceptionally bad thing because passengers want consistency and stability, and chopping and changing in order to chase new passengers needs to be done with care if it's to avoid frustrating and alienating your current passengers.

I'm also not entirely sure that there are many potential one-seat journeys that are both 1) not currently being provided, and 2) worth providing. If you're saying "make more routes possible by only 1 bus" as meaning "make more cross-city routes" then I disagree vehemently; there are already too many and "due to the unpredictability caused by roadworks, congestion and the driver shortage" (thanks for that) they're more inefficient and unreliable than ever.

I agree that change shouldn't be carried out for the sake of it. Passengers do want consistency and reliability. However, while a reduction in cross-city routes might improve the latter, it would surely be more inconvenient for many. The 2 is a great example which allows me to get from East to West on 1 bus with 1 ticket. If I want to go north, however, it's one bus into town and another out - 2 tickets with a walk/wait in the middle - much less convenient. I used to work in the City Centre, and would walk to Hope Street and get the 10 home. When it was replaced by the 87 from Buchanan Bus Station, they advised passengers to get the 9/9A to connect with it. That was not an improvement for me.

The only other thing I can think of is to have a central interchange (e.g. the bus station) with a number of core routes terminating there, e.g. 38/75/2, whatever are the busiest and cover all the main corridors. Have a common frequency (say every 10 minutes), that way passengers losing their cross-city routes would know that it would only be a short transfer time. And consider each journey with a central transfer as one.

In the examples previously given, my 2 would terminate at the central interchange, but I would know that I should be able to step onto a westbound bus within 10 minutes. I would no longer need to use 2 tickets to get to the north from the east. And I could step onto any northbound bus at Hope Street, knowing I could transfer easily to my 87. I would probably sacrifice my cross-city routes if such an arrangement was viable.
 

Volvodart

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12 Jun 2010
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Yeah but enough operators have managed to de hybridise the E400, in this case I think its just First don't want to spend the money. Tbf they are getting on in years. But still a lot of life left in the body.
The previous managing director said that they applied for Scottish Government funding, I think under the exhaust upgrade programme at the start of that, to convert them, but that must have been unsuccessful. This is covered in a freedom of information request here:-
 
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Tom Gallacher

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19 Mar 2021
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Glasgow
I agree that change shouldn't be carried out for the sake of it. Passengers do want consistency and reliability. However, while a reduction in cross-city routes might improve the latter, it would surely be more inconvenient for many. The 2 is a great example which allows me to get from East to West on 1 bus with 1 ticket. If I want to go north, however, it's one bus into town and another out - 2 tickets with a walk/wait in the middle - much less convenient. I used to work in the City Centre, and would walk to Hope Street and get the 10 home. When it was replaced by the 87 from Buchanan Bus Station, they advised passengers to get the 9/9A to connect with it. That was not an improvement for me.

The only other thing I can think of is to have a central interchange (e.g. the bus station) with a number of core routes terminating there, e.g. 38/75/2, whatever are the busiest and cover all the main corridors. Have a common frequency (say every 10 minutes), that way passengers losing their cross-city routes would know that it would only be a short transfer time. And consider each journey with a central transfer as one.

In the examples previously given, my 2 would terminate at the central interchange, but I would know that I should be able to step onto a westbound bus within 10 minutes. I would no longer need to use 2 tickets to get to the north from the east. And I could step onto any northbound bus at Hope Street, knowing I could transfer easily to my 87. I would probably sacrifice my cross-city routes if such an arrangement was viable.
If this is your journey pattern would it not be prudent to get an all day ticket? Then you can hop on and off as you please.
 

XAM2175

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And consider each journey with a central transfer as one.
Bingo - better accommodation for connections, including an allowance for transfers in single journeys, is the way to make the system work for everybody, rather than just those fortunate enough to have their travel patterns catered for by a one-seat route.

For clarity, I'm not completely and totally opposed to cross-city routes - by all means they should be kept where they serve genuinely significant traffic, but they shouldn't be considered to be the right choice by default.

If this is your journey pattern would it not be prudent to get an all day ticket? Then you can hop on and off as you please.
It would be nice if their m-tickets could be excessed to an all-day, come to think of it, or the tap-and-go prices need to match the caps available on the mobile fares.
 

scosutsut

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scosutsut
This seems to be a horrible waste, considering age profile of some other group companies, and how old some of their ex London acquisitions are. These were expensive buses when new so must still have a considerable book value? It's like the FTR saga all over again.

A few £10k investment in re engineering each to extend life by several years would have been money well spent, surely better to hang onto known quantities rather than buy other peoples cast offs..
I agree it's a complete waste, but it doesn't surprise me because First have a well established record of not looking after their assets so in addition to the need for re-powering they probably needed a full retrim and repaint furthering the case for not bothering?

I'd love to see how much they wrote off and compare it to how much Lothian spent re-engineering 15 of them, then take off the value of the further years service they provided and the subsequent resale value of them.

Penny wise and pound foolish as always.
 

PaulMc7

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Bingo - better accommodation for connections, including an allowance for transfers in single journeys, is the way to make the system work for everybody, rather than just those fortunate enough to have their travel patterns catered for by a one-seat route.

For clarity, I'm not completely and totally opposed to cross-city routes - by all means they should be kept where they serve genuinely significant traffic, but they shouldn't be considered to be the right choice by default.


It would be nice if their m-tickets could be excessed to an all-day, come to think of it, or the tap-and-go prices need to match the caps available on the mobile fares.
My point with cross-city routes is the lack of variety in the options people have with them. I wouldn't necessarily have more of them but if you look at certain areas, their options are all towards one end of the city.

Maryhill is a great example of this. The 60/60A and 61 all follow the same corridor through the city centre and the Gallowgate so without swapping bus you don't have much choice. The 8 and 90 also end up at Parkhead too from there although the 8 is much longer in time it takes.

Saracen Cross is another one with the same issue with the 7/7A and 75. The fact they're due a minute apart during the day towards the City Centre either doesn't really help too.

I'd keep the number of cross-city routes relatively similar but just have more of them go in different directions to others in the same areas so that people have other options.
 

Tom Gallacher

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19 Mar 2021
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I agree it's a complete waste, but it doesn't surprise me because First have a well established record of not looking after their assets so in addition to the need for re-powering they probably needed a full retrim and repaint furthering the case for not bothering?

I'd love to see how much they wrote off and compare it to how much Lothian spent re-engineering 15 of them, then take off the value of the further years service they provided and the subsequent resale value of them.

Penny wise and pound foolish as always.
The number of bizarre engineering and purchasing decisions that First have made over the past 25 years is truly staggering. They must have wasted millions over this period.
 

PaulMc7

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I had a rather strange experience today with the 1C. The driver had clearly mistakenly put 1D at the front and as I had been tracking it I knew it was meant to be a 1C as it was showing as one on the app. I got on at Osborne Street and at the next stop on Argyle Street, the driver pulled in and told everyone it was actually a 1C when my girlfriend went to tell him and he realised his mistake.

I felt bad for 2 women who then had to get off as a result of this though. A 1 and 1A had just been about a minute infront of the 1C and 2 1Ds were another couple of minutes ahead of them.

It's actually not the first time this has happened either and funnily enough, it's been the exact same 17:09 from Osborne Street 1C that has been incorrectly displaying as a 1D on all 3 of the occasions it has happened.

On the subject of 1s too, I seen an E200 with white LEDs on a 1 coming into the City Centre with a 1A as a Streetlite not too far behind that either. The E300s must be taking a bit of a battering with how much they've been up and down the expressway as I'm starting to see E200s and Streetlites popping up on the 1s each day now.
 
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I had a rather strange experience today with the 1C. The driver had clearly mistakenly put 1D at the front and as I had been tracking it I knew it was meant to be a 1C as it was showing as one on the app. I got on at Osborne Street and at the next stop on Argyle Street, the driver pulled in and told everyone it was actually a 1C when my girlfriend went to tell him and he realised his mistake.

I felt bad for 2 women who then had to get off as a result of this though. A 1 and 1A had just been about a minute infront of the 1C and 2 1Ds were another couple of minutes ahead of them.

It's actually not the first time this has happened either and funnily enough, it's been the exact same 17:09 from Osborne Street 1C that has been incorrectly displaying as a 1D on all 3 of the occasions it has happened.

On the subject of 1s too, I seen an E200 with white LEDs on a 1 coming into the City Centre with a 1A as a Streetlite not too far behind that either. The E300s must be taking a bit of a battering with how much they've been up and down the expressway as I'm starting to see E200s and Streetlites popping up on the 1s each day now.
YX59 BYA 44463 is the E200, 67728 was involved in an RTC today on Dumbarton Road so that will be off the road for the time being too.
 

PaulMc7

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YX59 BYA 44463 is the E200, 67728 was involved in an RTC today on Dumbarton Road so that will be off the road for the time being too.
Thanks for the info. Are there any fleet movements into Dumbarton and Scotstoun still to come or are the next things related to the end of the lease on some of the E300s and Scotstoun getting the E200EVs? I've completely lost track of everything going on since it was previously discussed.
 

Volvodart

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2 have arrived at Slough. Some are to be painted before arrival, but unsure if this is to be done at Glasgow before departure or elsewhere en route.
34379 has been painted in Glasgow into a half purple half orange livery.
 

Glasgowbusguy

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21 Feb 2019
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544
I had a rather strange experience today with the 1C. The driver had clearly mistakenly put 1D at the front and as I had been tracking it I knew it was meant to be a 1C as it was showing as one on the app. I got on at Osborne Street and at the next stop on Argyle Street, the driver pulled in and told everyone it was actually a 1C when my girlfriend went to tell him and he realised his mistake.

I felt bad for 2 women who then had to get off as a result of this though. A 1 and 1A had just been about a minute infront of the 1C and 2 1Ds were another couple of minutes ahead of them.

It's actually not the first time this has happened either and funnily enough, it's been the exact same 17:09 from Osborne Street 1C that has been incorrectly displaying as a 1D on all 3 of the occasions it has happened.

On the subject of 1s too, I seen an E200 with white LEDs on a 1 coming into the City Centre with a 1A as a Streetlite not too far behind that either. The E300s must be taking a bit of a battering with how much they've been up and down the expressway as I'm starting to see E200s and Streetlites popping up on the 1s each day now.
Tbf incorrect destination screens seems to be a issue at the moment
 
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Tbf incorrect destination screens seems to be a issue at the moment
I cannot vouch for it being the same in Glasgow, but with the last timetable change in other first-run areas there are now a number of duties on routes like the 1s where you ‘swap’ the route when you aren’t expecting. I.e you’ve been a 1D all day then your last trip of the duty you’re a 1C. I would imagine if it’s happening at one First OpCo, it’ll be happening st every First OpCo, all in the name of cutting down on duties
 

Non Multi

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11 Dec 2017
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34379 has been painted in Glasgow into a half purple half orange livery.
**Raises eyebrows**

That's the current route livery for route 4, Maidenhead-Slough-Heathrow (via the A4 Bath Road).

It also happens to be my local First Berks route...
 

Brimfulofasha

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31 Mar 2020
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Glasgow
If this is your journey pattern would it not be prudent to get an all day ticket? Then you can hop on and off as you please.

I buy sets of 10 singles on the app - currently 22.40, so 2.24 each, or 4.48 for 2. A 2-journey ticket is 4.50 (gotta save that 2p!) An all-day is 4.90 so it only makes sense to get that if I am planning on more than 2 journeys in a day. I've not actually looked into the tapping fares, would that be cheaper?
 

SarahDFIG

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9 Jan 2019
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407
Terrible behaviour.


Police are hunting for three teenagers after a bus was wilfully set on fire in Glasgow.

At around 10.05pm on Thursday evening, the bus stopped in Corkerhill Road at the junction with Braidcraft Road when it was established there was a fire on the top deck.

The bus has been “extensively damaged” and 12 passengers were evacuated as a result of the incident.

Police are now attempting to trace three youths, aged between 15 and 18, who boarded the bus at Silverburn Shopping Centre and left the bus on Corkerhill Road just after the Braidcraft Road roundabout.
 
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PaulMc7

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Terrible behaviour.

There seems to be a lot of anti-social behaviour around in recent times and I'm not surprised that area has cropped up given that Silverburn is generally full of kids out with their mates with no signs of any parents whatsoever.

People wonder why there are driver shortages around and stuff like this absolutely contributes to it.
 
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Presumably they did not use young persons travel cards, cross referencing the onboard cctv times with there registered cards is an easy gateway to identifying those people.

If they had day tickets and paid for those with a bank card even on a previous bus then boarding another bus later and scanning the QR code you would think would leave an identifiable trail for the specific ticket purchased.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There seems to be a lot of anti-social behaviour around in recent times and I'm not surprised that area has cropped up given that Silverburn is generally full of kids out with their mates with no signs of any parents whatsoever.

People wonder why there are driver shortages around and stuff like this absolutely contributes to it.
If indeed they have boarded with the intention of doing this presumably they may just have paid for there journey with cash.

In my opinion having driven buses in Glasgow these sort of yobs are usually traveling with day tickets if not the previously mentioned ways of paying or traveling.
 
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PaulMc7

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Presumably they did not use young persons travel cards, cross referencing the onboard cctv times with there registered cards is an easy gateway to identifying those people.

If they had day tickets and paid for those with a bank card even on a previous bus then boarding another bus later and scanning the QR code you would think would leave an identifiable trail for the specific ticket purchased.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


If indeed they have boarded with the intention of doing this presumably they may just have paid for there journey with cash.

In my opinion having driven buses in Glasgow these sort of yobs are usually traveling with day tickets if not the previously mentioned ways of paying or traveling.
You definitely could be right although it's hard to tell. A lot of the anti-social behaviour I've witnessed with kids being obnoxious on buses has involved those with under 22 passes since the scheme began.

There are two kids I see locally on buses here and there who probably aren't even 10 years old yet and they just use vapes and insult other passengers on a regular basis. They both have under 22 passes and clearly know that drivers won't do anything because they're kids and the bus is normally late so it would just make them even later.

I've also noticed that in the east end of Glasgow in particular, there are usually large groups of kids more often than not when I'm there. The 8 is especially bad from experience and I've noticed it on the 38, 60 and 60A too.
 

92002

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27 Mar 2014
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Clydebank
Having only ever driven the 200EV at First Glasgow I’ve no idea about being a passenger.

The 400EV picture below shows a shocking passenger seat arrangement downstairs. This is the first I’ve ever been a passenger on one. All but 4 seats are on raised plinths and it feels notably cramped compared to the diesel equivalent. At 10.9m the 400EV is not what I expected when coming from ADL. Possibly this was another oversight to get their BYD powered product on the market.
Presumably the seats on plinths are where the batteries are installed.
 
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Presumably the seats on plinths are where the batteries are installed.
Correct, that is exactly where some of the batteries are whilst some are on top of the front wheel arches and at the rear upper deck. However, on further inspection it seems that BYD have purposely kept the rear overhang very short therefore any batteries are naturally being pushed forward and consequently leaving less interior space. They're not particularly great compared with equivalent 10.9m diesel models.
 

Jordan Adam

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Correct, that is exactly where some of the batteries are whilst some are on top of the front wheel arches and at the rear upper deck. However, on further inspection it seems that BYD have purposely kept the rear overhang very short therefore any batteries are naturally being pushed forward and consequently leaving less interior space. They're not particularly great compared with equivalent 10.9m diesel models.
Presumably the seats on plinths are where the batteries are installed.
That's not quite the cause though, it's more to do with the really short rear overhang therefor meaning the rear axle is further back than normal, the second last row of seats on the lower deck is on top of the wheels whereas on a conventional decker it's rearwards facing and behind the rear wheels.

The new generation Enviro400EV should rectify this.
 

Glasgowbusguy

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In defence of the E400 EV the seats directly behind the driver's are the best designed seats for tall passengers on any UK bus. I am 6ft4 and these are by far the most comfortable.
 
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92002

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In defence of the E400 EV the seats directly behind the driver's are the best designed seats for tall passengers on any UK bus. I am 6ft4 and these are by far the most comfortable.
Certainly a vast improvement on the Geminis that they replaced.
 

Jordan Adam

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In defence of the E400 EV the seats directly behind the driver's are the best designed seats for tall passengers on any UK bus. I am 6ft4 and these are by far the most comfortable.
I disagree, the back on that particular seat is far too upright which makes it near impossible to sit in comfortably.
 

PaulMc7

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I disagree, the back on that particular seat is far too upright which makes it near impossible to sit in comfortably.
I'm not even that tall and I agree with this. I done it once when we first got E400EVs and it's not something I'd do again. I tend to go upstairs every single time I get one now.



On another note, some changes to where buses are stopping on the 26th https://www.firstbus.co.uk/greater-...updates/updates/changes-city-centre-bus-stops

From Sunday 26th March, some bus stops will no longer be served by selected services.


Stop 609073 (GM) – George Square South

Service 6/6A, 18, 21 & 500 will no longer stop here.



Stop 609075 (VA) – St Vincent Place

Service 41 will no longer stop here.



Stop 609065 (GP) – Glassford Street prior to Wilson Street

Service 1/1A/B/C/D/E & X4 will no longer stop here.



Stop 609063 (SE) – Stockwell Street at Osborne Street

Service 65 will no longer stop here.



Stop 6090125 (CF) – Cathedral Street after Stirling Road

(opposite Strathclyde University Sport Centre)

No First Glasgow services will use this stop.
 
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