First Greater Glasgow

[PaulMc7]

Having only ever driven the 200EV at First Glasgow I’ve no idea about being a passenger.

The 400EV pictures has a shocking passenger seat arrangement downstairs, this is the first I’ve ever been a passenger on one, all but 4 seats are on raised plinths and it feels notably cramped compared to the diesel equivalent, at 10.9m the 400EV is not what I expected when coming from ADL, possibly this was another oversight to get there BYD powered product on the market.

I always go upstairs on them regardless of how busy they are because of it and I'm not even that tall either. I've cracked my head off of the ceiling downstairs pretty badly on a couple of the first occasions I used them so avoiding it now. They feel really cheaply built compared to older buses too.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Having only ever driven the 200EV at First Glasgow I’ve no idea about being a passenger.

The 400EV picture below shows a shocking passenger seat arrangement downstairs. This is the first I’ve ever been a passenger on one. All but 4 seats are on raised plinths and it feels notably cramped compared to the diesel equivalent. At 10.9m the 400EV is not what I expected when coming from ADL. Possibly this was another oversight to get their BYD powered product on the market.

I believe this has been corrected for the new generation E400EVs. They look to be more based around the E400MMC design.

 

[PaulMc7]

I believe this has been corrected for the new generation E400EVs. They look to be more based around the E400MMC design.

I do wonder if First will make an order of them later this year or early 2024. I've seen a few photos of them and that combined with the higher potential mileage range, they certainly seem a lot better than the current ones we have.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I do wonder if First will make an order of them later this year or early 2024. I've seen a few photos of them and that combined with the higher potential mileage range, they certainly seem a lot better than the current ones we have.

I imagine they’ll be the preferred option to replace the B9TLs.

 

[PaulMc7]

I imagine they’ll be the preferred option to replace the B9TLs.

I agree with you. I hope the Yutongs are a success in Aberdeen so they may be considered for here too. They're the only thing that's not Alexander Dennis built that I can see here ending up with anytime soon.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I agree with you. I hope the Yutongs are a success in Aberdeen so they may be considered for here too. They're the only thing that's not Alexander Dennis built that I can see here ending up with anytime soon.

I’m hoping once Scotstoun goes electric that they’ll move on to Blantyre and possibly Dumbarton. Those are the routes I can imagine seeing Yutongs due to distance.

I still don’t understand why First have ordered more E200EVs when the Yutongs have the best range and are the more superior product. Ordering E200EVs for the 2 and 3 is a mistake IMO. Most of the electric vehicles First have just now are in the depot by tea time. I’m hoping the Yutongs are a success here also and we see some.

 

[PaulMc7]

I’m hoping once Scotstoun goes electric that they’ll move on to Blantyre and possibly Dumbarton. Those are the routes I can imagine seeing Yutongs due to distance.

I still don’t understand why First have ordered more E200EVs when the Yutongs have the best range and are the more superior product. Ordering E200EVs for the 2 and 3 is a mistake IMO. Most of the electric vehicles First have just now are in the depot by tea time. I’m hoping the Yutongs are a success here also and we see some.

The 2 and 3 could easily be all double decker at peak times on the current frequencies so I'm baffled by it. The only way they'll work is if they get enough drivers to increase the frequencies of both services. Capacity issues are really showing just now due to the roadworks through Partick leaving large gaps in between buses. The problem is that the roadworks are long term too due to the changes with Byres Road taking place making the bottom of it one way upwards. Summer 2024 is the target for completion of the works.

 

[sannox]

What is the difference in range between the EV200 and the Yutongs?

 

[voidwxrranty]

What is the difference in range between the EV200 and the Yutongs?

Yutongs have 320miles, i’m pretty sure BYD’s are less than 200.

 

[PaulMc7]

Interestingly, I saw a Streetlite being used for driver training earlier near Scotstoun. It's the first time I've seen one used for that.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Interestingly, I saw a Streetlite being used for driver training earlier near Scotstoun. It's the first time I've seen one used for that.

It will be for route learning and vehicle familiarisation purposes rather than "brand new" driver training itself as extra equipment is required for training buses (instructor's seat, mirrors, etc.)

 

[PaulMc7]

It will be for route learning and vehicle familiarisation purposes rather than "brand new" driver training itself as extra equipment is required for training buses (instructor's seat, mirrors, etc.)

I was thinking that to be fair. The Streetlites are prone to drifting onto the longer routes from time to time too. The 2, 3 and 6 occasionally see them although it's not a daily occurrence. If Bustimes.org is accurate today (it may not be) the only other bus one is on is the 90.

 

[Jarcoed]

64153-57 all at Caledonia depot, fully green electric branded including a bright green rear vinyl (assuming it has something to do with being electric), saw them whilst walking by this evening

 

[PaulMc7]

Is this us now into a quiet time for First now that the 126 buses are now all here from that order? It's just a few fleet movements in and out and the 50 E200EVs to come now in 2023/early 2024 isn't it? Some more service changes wouldn't surprise me either to be fair but I don't know when to expect them to be honest as we've just had 2 different sets of them this month.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Is this us now into a quiet time for First now that the 126 buses are now all here from that order? It's just a few fleet movements in and out and the 50 E200EVs to come now in 2023/early 2024 isn't it? Some more service changes wouldn't surprise me either to be fair but I don't know when to expect them to be honest as we've just had 2 different sets of them this month.

It doesn’t seem like that long ago that Scotstoun were taking delivery of 50 E300s. I’m interested to see how well the E200EVs work on the 2 and 3. They’re quite lengthy routes and the current electrics aren’t great for range but I’m sure First have tested them for suitability.

The B9TLs are ageing so I imagine we’ll be hearing of a new order in the not too distance future. Perhaps these will be the new generation E400EVs with better range. Also with Aberdeen’s Yutongs trialing here - I’m hoping we may see some of those too!

 

[Volvodart]

I am pretty sure they are Hoeford bound (13) and Essex are due to get 339xx buses (8)

2 have arrived at Slough. Some are to be painted before arrival, but unsure if this is to be done at Glasgow before departure or elsewhere en route.

 

[PaulMc7]

Are there more issues with trackers on buses now than there has been recently because I've had quite a few buses now turn up despite not tracking on the app and I've either just missed them or just caught them as a result? The app is hopeless as I've said before and this is where cancellations all being entered would actually help as I've also said before. People won't get buses if they need to play guesswork on whether they'll turn up or not.

The only reason I mention this on here is that I've had a straight answer that isn't a lie over cancellations compared to the social media team and the people monitoring any customer service emails. I was told by both that it was a feature still in testing for months when it wasn't as I was informed on here.

The whole really does show a lot of incompetence and laziness on First's front though. It's not a hard thing to get right and it helps passengers meaning they're more likely to stay using buses. The whole "they can't be inputted as they're last minute" excuse is so bad too.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Saw a photo on Facebook from Campbell’s of Alexandria where the Hybrid E400s are being scrapped along with some B7TLs and B7RLEs.

However there’s an ex-FSE gold branded E300. Does anyone know what’s actually happened to this bus? I remember it being moved to Scotstoun just as McGills took over: It’ll be just over 10 years old and being scrapped already?

 

[voidwxrranty]

Saw a photo on Facebook from Campbell’s of Alexandria where the Hybrid E400s are being scrapped along with some B7TLs and B7RLEs.

However there’s an ex-FSE gold branded E300. Does anyone know what’s actually happened to this bus? I remember it being moved to Scotstoun just as McGills took over: It’ll be just over 10 years old and being scrapped already?

Would’ve been the one that caught fire at Mollinsburn just at the start of last year.

 

[Volvodart]

Saw a photo on Facebook from Campbell’s of Alexandria where the Hybrid E400s are being scrapped

They were supposed to be stored, as there is still value to be written off. That was why the ones in England were donated rather than scrapped.

 

[Jordan Adam]

However there’s an ex-FSE gold branded E300. Does anyone know what’s actually happened to this bus? I remember it being moved to Scotstoun just as McGills took over: It’ll be just over 10 years old and being scrapped already?

As @voidwxrranty mentions it'll be 67778 which caught fire last year. When Scotland East was sold to McGill's 67778 transferred 'on paper' to Glasgow with 67804 going from Aberdeen to Scotland East in it's place, it's believed this was done for insurance purposes. It should be noted 67804 had already been earmarked to transfer to Scotland East anyway.

 

[PaulMc7]

While scrolling the internet tonight, I found a screenshot of the Overground network and it's wild how little has lasted to the present day in terms of routes.

There are a few routes or numbers that have changed with some differences but the only services I could find that haven't really changed at all are the 5, 61, 75, 81 although it went to Linnvale for a while, 88 and 201 although that was tied in with a 202 for a while in a circle in East Kilbride. I was very young at the time so I don't remember it too well but at the time, did anyone think more of the routes would last 20-25 years into the future?

 

[JumpinTrainz]

While scrolling the internet tonight, I found a screenshot of the Overground network and it's wild how little has lasted to the present day in terms of routes.

There are a few routes or numbers that have changed with some differences but the only services I could find that haven't really changed at all are the 5, 61, 75, 81 although it went to Linnvale for a while, 88 and 201 although that was tied in with a 202 for a while in a circle in East Kilbride. I was very young at the time so I don't remember it too well but at the time, did anyone think more of the routes would last 20-25 years into the future?

Most east end routes have barely changed other than some renumbering. The 61, 62 and 40 are all the same route except the 62 is now the 2 and the 40 is now the 60 and now there’s a variation to Milngavie but other than that.

Simplicity really did cut back on a lot of routes. It’s crazy to think it’s nearly been 10 years.

 

[PaulMc7]

Most east end routes have barely changed other than some renumbering. The 61, 62 and 40 are all the same route except the 62 is now the 2 and the 40 is now the 60 and now there’s a variation to Milngavie but other than that.

Simplicity really did cut back on a lot of routes. It’s crazy to think it’s nearly been 10 years.

May 26th 2013 feels like an entire lifetime ago to be honest. I think that when the industry stabilises eventually, First might try another Simplicity just to eliminate less profitable services and change up a few services in order to add a bit of variety.

I can also see a world in which the evening services are cut down even more just to save a few driver requirements too. I can't recall a time before now where people have wanted a work-life balance more than now. It'll also be interesting to see just how much a 4 day week will be pushed in society too and this may force First's hand a little too as their full time shifts tend to be very long and they've probably never required overtime more from their staff as much as they do now to cope.

I also wonder if wages will be increased again anytime soon in order to try and attract more staff because First are lucky enough to be one of the few operators in Scotland who could probably comfortably afford to increase wages without a lot of issues. Having a double pay overtime rate is very rare in any industry these days and they can manage that so I wouldn't say £14.50-15 an hour is impossible for them. I'd also like to see Dumbarton, Overtown and Blantyre get equal pay to the Glasgow depots too.

I definitely do think there are far less cancellations than even a couple of months back especially earlier in the week but they still need to find a lot more cover for Fridays and Saturdays due to the night buses. Reliability tends to walk straight off of a cliff at the weekend although from experience, Sundays haven't been too bad.

 

[ChrisPJ]

They were supposed to be stored, as there is still value to be written off. That was why the ones in England were donated rather than scrapped.

This seems to be a horrible waste, considering age profile of some other group companies, and how old some of their ex London acquisitions are. These were expensive buses when new so must still have a considerable book value? It's like the FTR saga all over again.

A few £10k investment in re engineering each to extend life by several years would have been money well spent, surely better to hang onto known quantities rather than buy other peoples cast offs..

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

This seems to be a horrible waste, considering age profile of some other group companies, and how old some of their ex London acquisitions are. These were expensive buses when new so must still have a considerable book value? It's like the FTR saga all over again.

A few £10k investment in re engineering each to extend life by several years would have been money well spent, surely better to hang onto known quantities rather than buy other peoples cast offs..

I know that retrofitting has been done before to Enviro 300-bodied models, either a Scania or MAN chassis and been fitted with the Cummins 6.7 engine instead.

Where a larger engine is being replaced with a smaller unit, I guess significant fabrication work needs to take place for this to happen in most circumstances.

I’m unsure how it goes if a smaller unit was removed to fit a larger unit, given that tail length regarding bodywork often increases for a chassis with a larger engine.

It would be much more difficult to take the 400H, remove its 4.5ltr engine, electric motor, rear axle & batteries then refit a 6.7ltr engine, angle drive, gearbox and new rear axle if the chassis hasn’t been design to accommodate it.

 

[ChrisPJ]

I know that retrofitting has been done before to Enviro 300-bodied models, either a Scania or MAN chassis and been fitted with the Cummins 6.7 engine instead.

Where a larger engine is being replaced with a smaller unit, I guess significant fabrication work needs to take place for this to happen in most circumstances.

I’m unsure how it goes if a smaller unit was removed to fit a larger unit, given that tail length regarding bodywork often increases for a chassis with a larger engine.

It would be much more difficult to take the 400H, remove its 4.5ltr engine, electric motor, rear axle & batteries then refit a 6.7ltr engine, angle drive, gearbox and new rear axle if the chassis hasn’t been design to accommodate it.

Yeah but enough operators have managed to de hybridise the E400, in this case I think its just First don't want to spend the money. Tbf they are getting on in years. But still a lot of life left in the body.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Yeah but enough operators have managed to de hybridise the E400, in this case I think its just First don't want to spend the money. Tbf they are getting on in years. But still a lot of life left in the body.

It’s also a half baked approach by directly connecting a small 4.5ltr up directly to the wheels.

 

[PaulMc7]

I've never really known what to make of E400s in general to be honest. I've used them a lot by being a fairly regular user of the 6 and in more recent times, they've been so spread around that I've used them on the 2, 3 and X4 too recently. I wouldn't say that they're the most comfortable buses I've used but I also wouldn't say they're the worst either.

I also recall a period where the 1C and 1D seen a few of them at peak times and now there is still usually one on the 1D at 17:29 from Osborne Street as that run is connected to runs off of the 6 before that.

 

[XAM2175]

I think that when the industry stabilises eventually, First might try another Simplicity just to eliminate less profitable services and change up a few services in order to add a bit of variety.

I am still at a complete loss as to why "variety" is something that needs to be added to any bus network