First Greater Glasgow

[318266]

I cannot remember if it was several pages ago in this thread or if it was in one of the other West of Scotland threads, but regarding route branding, the only routes in Glasgow that would be branded are the 500 that runs Buchanan - Airport and Stagecoach (Ayr) X19 Clyde Fastlink Easterhouse - New Southern General.

No other routes are to be branded - after all, there are no branded routes in London.

The X19 is slowly getting un-route branded with the new livery repaints, but it is to be noted that McGill's has a fair few routes that are branded - X7, ClydeFlyer 901/906, X23, 23, 26 and 38.

 

[vla50]

What will see off the last few B7TLs?

 

[JumpinTrainz]

What will see off the last few B7TLs?

I’d imagine the next batch of E400EVs will fully see them off.

I cannot remember if it was several pages ago in this thread or if it was in one of the other West of Scotland threads, but regarding route branding, the only routes in Glasgow that would be branded are the 500 that runs Buchanan - Airport and Stagecoach (Ayr) X19 Clyde Fastlink Easterhouse - New Southern General.

No other routes are to be branded - after all, there are no branded routes in London.

That makes sense. I do see the benefits of route branding but like I said - it doesn’t work very well for somewhere like Glasgow that runs a lot of routes especially from a depot like Caledonia.

 

[Joerf21]

Aww well, it will be sad to see First Glasgow's colourful buses disappear.

 

[vla50]

I’d imagine the next batch of E400EVs will fully see them off.


That makes sense. I do see the benefits of route branding but like I said - it doesn’t work very well for somewhere like Glasgow that runs a lot of routes especially from a depot like Caledonia.

How many EVs are expected?

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Aww well, it will be sad to see First Glasgow's colourful buses disappear.

But it would be a tearful pleasure to watch the Orange & Black make a return.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

But it would be a tearful pleasure to watch the Orange & Black make a return.

Maybe it's an age thing but I thought that was a terrible colour scheme. Then again with all the variations they tried in the 70's and 80's maybe they had run out of ides by then. For me the colour scheme pre GGPTE was more than adequate.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I've finally managed to get my semi-diagrammatic map to a stage where it is acceptable to release.
It was supposed to be a "quick and dirty" effort; I've certainly managed the "dirty" but unfortunately not so much the "quick"!

You can download or view the file here, or go to this address if the link doesn't work: https://github.com/40414148/Transport-Published/raw/main/Maps/GreaterGlasgowBusNetwork.pdf
Alternatively click here to view the file on GitHub; this will let you see when it was last updated.
These links will always take you to the most recent file version and will never change for as long as the file remains online.

The map shows weekday daytime routes which has a frequency of hourly or better, across all operators.
There will be many errors that I haven't caught, if you see any let me know.
Issues I'm aware of:
- Some areas of one-way routes are missing arrows.
- Citylink service 900 missing from Baillieston area.
Some elements look very rough due to the conversion from SVG to PDF, I'm going to fix these when I get the time.
I'm going to add in the missing route termini and add in the Paisley and Lanarkshire area when I get the time.
I've put an image preview below, note that this may not be updated when I release new versions of the map.
View attachment 122453

oh wow that is amazing!

thanks so much for sharing, it's a much better map than any map recently made by an operator.

 

[Joerf21]

It would be good if First Glasgow came up with a cooperative livery, marking Glasgow's bus liveries. One incorporating Glasgow Corporation, SMT red and Midland blue, to mark Glasgow bus companies' colours.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

It would be good if first glasgow came up with a coperative livary, marking glasgow,s bus livaries incorparating glasgow corporation, smt red midland blue, to mark glasgow bus companies colours

I still think Glasgow should have had it’s own unique livery. There’s so much heritage and history surrounding Glasgow, not to mention First have been the main operator for nearly 30 years. A black and orange livery would have been great or at least something that celebrated the city.

I find the urban livery to be very plain and dull. I really don’t know what First were thinking with it.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

I still think Glasgow should have had it’s own unique livery. There’s so much heritage and history surrounding Glasgow, not to mention First have been the main operator for nearly 30 years. A black and orange livery would have been great or at least something that celebrated the city.

I find the urban livery to be very plain and dull. I really don’t know what First were thinking with it.

What does black and orange have to do with Glasgow's transport heritage? Serious question.

 

[route101]

I think with the historic liveries, it depends on what you grew up with.

I used McGills bus on Saturday and was frustrated that I to use McGills and First Glasgow networks I would have to buy two day tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==

I still think Glasgow should have had it’s own unique livery. There’s so much heritage and history surrounding Glasgow, not to mention First have been the main operator for nearly 30 years. A black and orange livery would have been great or at least something that celebrated the city.

I find the urban livery to be very plain and dull. I really don’t know what First were thinking with it.

Other cities seem to have local liveries, for example the Red Southampton livery.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==

What will see off the last few B7TLs?

I haven't seen any for a month. What routes are they on?

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

So my understanding is that Strathclyde red ,( the oranges official name)
Was picked for two reasons
1 it wasn't green or blue
2. It matched the underground trains

 

[ScotRail158725]

I think with the historic liveries, it depends on what you grew up with.

I used McGills bus on Saturday and was frustrated that I to use McGills and First Glasgow networks I would have to buy two day tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==


Other cities seem to have local liveries, for example the Red Southampton livery.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==


I haven't seen any for a month. What routes are they on?

There’s 6 left, they’re used on any Caledonia route

 

[Tom Gallacher]

I think with the historic liveries, it depends on what you grew up with.

Perhaps but I hardly call a livery, which lasted for about 12 years, historic compared to a colour scheme that was used for over 60 years. I take your point about what people grew up with but if you're talking about history I think you need to acknowledge what was the predominant colour scheme for the majority of the systems existence. The orange and black was a Strathclyde Buses colour scheme. If First had called themselves First Strathclyde then I could see the relevance but they didn't.

 

[PaulMc7]

I've never really been a big fan of any livery First have had here to be quite honest. I think the current one is very plain too though.

I don't think the average person cares what colour they turn up in to be fair. The main thing is them actually turning up at all and that's why I think First not making timetable changes is going to make some people switch away from buses unfortunately.

The biggest challenge First have is balancing peak services being covered with improving passenger loadings in the off peak services. Once this is sorted then focus on liveries. No branding will help too though. Even as someone who knows the network inside out, I have to look twice a lot of the time because of how often branded buses aren't on their route.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I've uploaded the next version of the map. The link to it is the same as in the initial post, which I've quoted below. I've also added a changelog file to the GitHub folder for if you want to know what has changed in more detail.
In summary:

• Added more route number annotations.
• Added more arrows to show on-way sections of route.
• Removed black border from route numbers as these looked bad when the file is converted to PDF.
• Started adding Lanarkshire routes though these are at an early stage.

Issues I'm aware of:

• Lanarkshire.
• Some route operator text overlaps with other elements.
• I've just noticed the southern terminus of the First 5 is missing an annotation, I'll add it for the next version.

I've finally managed to get my semi-diagrammatic map to a stage where it is acceptable to release.
It was supposed to be a "quick and dirty" effort; I've certainly managed the "dirty" but unfortunately not so much the "quick"!

You can download or view the file here, or go to this address if the link doesn't work: https://github.com/40414148/Transport-Published/raw/main/Maps/GreaterGlasgowBusNetwork.pdf
Alternatively click here to view the file on GitHub; this will let you see when it was last updated.
These links will always take you to the most recent file version and will never change for as long as the file remains online.

The map shows weekday daytime routes which has a frequency of hourly or better, across all operators.
There will be many errors that I haven't caught, if you see any let me know.
Issues I'm aware of:
- Some areas of one-way routes are missing arrows.
- Citylink service 900 missing from Baillieston area.
Some elements look very rough due to the conversion from SVG to PDF, I'm going to fix these when I get the time.
I'm going to add in the missing route termini and add in the Paisley and Lanarkshire area when I get the time.
I've put an image preview below, note that this may not be updated when I release new versions of the map.
View attachment 122453

It's a good bit of work!

Thank you.

The main issue I've spotted is that the X10's colour is very very hard to spot, haha.

I've adjusted the colour of the X10 slightly, it's still not ideal though. I think I'll maybe darken it further towards the colour of the First route 3; I don't think it would matter too much if they both ended up the same colour as they don't run parallel or near parallel anywhere.

Also the 90's one-way section on Maryhill Road heading towards Partick isn't shown, but that could be covered by your existing note on one-way sections.

Fixed.

The only issue I noticed is that the x19 motorway section is missing.

Fixed, sort of. I don't want to include routes on long sections where they don't serve any stops (e.g. on the M8) so I'm going to leave all the motorway sections as a thin black line (though as a curved line rather than as a series of straight-line segments).

A reasonable effort here with the above points noted.

Thank you.

Excellent effort, only things I have spotted is wrong destinations in the South 49- South Park Village/Darnley (not Govanhill), and 57A - Kennishead (not Mosspark),

Fixed.

I’d ask for more clarity of the M8/M80 situation - you can’t cram on all of the services heading to Cumbernauld etc but having just a black line with no explanation may confuse people unfamiliar with the routes

Yeah I'm going to add more annotation as I progress with the routes further north. I've added a small amount on the M8 for now.

(also, I’d swap the colour of the First 19 to something more colourful, since a black route running parallel with the motorways makes it look like another bit of motorway)

It was actually dark blue but I take your point, I've lightened it a bit now.

oh wow that is amazing!

Thank you.

 

[Brimfulofasha]

Took a 61 into town yesterday at 1345 - it went out of service at Trongate - and we were put off. Some of us then boarded a 60 which turned onto Stockwell Street, then Stockwell Place (at the St Enoch car park) where it also went out of service due to no relief driver. I'm not one to jump on the 'major reorganisation required' bandwagon, but surely that level of service is becoming untenable?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think with the historic liveries, it depends on what you grew up with.

So true. However, the orange (sorry, Strathclyde Red) livery was certainly distinctive, and was chosen to avoid blue or green (football) though the managers didn't twig any issue with orange. I'm not usually a fan of readopting historic liveries... does anyone really care about Western red and cream? However, I'd make the exception in that it was so recognisable and marketable.

To answer the question on First urban and its purpose... It was to provide a rather bland base palette onto which branding could then be added. I'd hope that First's new structure isn't going to ultimately lead to a return to centrally imposed rules on liveries and allows local management teams to operate with some autonomy.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

So true. However, the orange (sorry, Strathclyde Red) livery was certainly distinctive, and was chosen to avoid blue or green (football) though the managers didn't twig any issue with orange. I'm not usually a fan of readopting historic liveries... does anyone really care about Western red and cream? However, I'd make the exception in that it was so recognisable and marketable.

To answer the question on First urban and its purpose... It was to provide a rather bland base palette onto which branding could then be added. I'd hope that First's new structure isn't going to ultimately lead to a return to centrally imposed rules on liveries and allows local management teams to operate with some autonomy.

I remember at the time when the revamped subway opened in 1979 the new orange colour scheme adopted by SPTE (leading to the network being known as the "clockwork orange" for those on here not familiar with the city) was certainly commented on by Glaswegians at the time. Further comments were added here at a later date

www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/history/reason-glasgow-corpy-buses-switched-23432814

Note: Mods feel free to delete this post if you think it transgresses the forum rules.

 

[PaulMc7]

Took a 61 into town yesterday at 1345 - it went out of service at Trongate - and we were put off. Some of us then boarded a 60 which turned onto Stockwell Street, then Stockwell Place (at the St Enoch car park) where it also went out of service due to no relief driver. I'm not one to jump on the 'major reorganisation required' bandwagon, but surely that level of service is becoming untenable?

The way the 60/60A/61 have been lately you’d think no new drivers they get in are ever trained on those routes. The 7/7A are quite bad for this too especially the 7A. I'd love to know the process for choosing which routes new drivers learn because some seem heavily imbalanced compared to others.

 

[stuart81]

The way the 60/60A/61 have been lately you’d think no new drivers they get in are ever trained on those routes. The 7/7A are quite bad for this too especially the 7A. I'd love to know the process for choosing which routes new drivers learn because some seem heavily imbalanced compared to others.

Can we PLEASE stop with the constant bashing and implication you could do a better job.

The bus industry is in crisis, we all know that!

 

[PaulMc7]

Can we PLEASE stop with the constant bashing and implication you could do a better job.

The bus industry is in crisis, we all know that!

I wasn't bashing them? It was a genuine thing I was interested in. Some routes get prioritised over others. Look at the post my reply was to. I was saying I've experienced similar with the same routes. If you thought it was bashing then fair enough but I won't bash for them for something the entire industry is facing as I've previously said too.

If anything I can actually praise First today. I've only been on 3 buses today so far (1D, 38 and 46) and they've all been on time with very pleasant drivers. I'll praise when it's warranted and criticise when it's warranted.

 

[Joerf21]

So my understanding is that Strathclyde red ,( the oranges official name)
Was picked for two reasons
1 it wasn't green or blue
2. It matched the underground trains

Strathclyde Buses' livery was orange, then it changed to red. I can't remember the logo for it though, think it was Greater Glasgow.

 

[route101]

The way the 60/60A/61 have been lately you’d think no new drivers they get in are ever trained on those routes. The 7/7A are quite bad for this too especially the 7A. I'd love to know the process for choosing which routes new drivers learn because some seem heavily imbalanced compared to others.

I do wonder if some routes are designated beginner routes.

 

[scosutsut]

Strathclyde Buses' livery was orange, then it changed to red. I can't remember the logo for it though, think it was Greater Glasgow.

You had Strathclyde Buses using Orange and Black (Strathclyde Red & Black officially) and Kelvin Central using Red and Cream, First then brought their trademark flair and ingenuity to the party and selected all over red for both.

First Kelvin and First Greater Glasgow were the fleet names as I recall.

Then Barbie came along, originally just on new vehicles but later extended to any old tat.

 

[PaulMc7]

I do wonder if some routes are designated beginner routes.

I don't know about Caledonia but with Scotstoun it definitely seemed to be the 2 for quite a while. It's a route I used 5 days a week with the same bus and almost every single day at one point it was a new driver I hadn't seen before. It seemed to calm down a bit towards the end of my last job, with the changeover driver generally being the same guy each day and when it wasn't him it very rarely ran beyond Scotstoun.

I'm fairly decent at remembering faces so I can usually tell pretty quickly if I've never seen the driver before.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Strathclyde Buses' livery was orange, then it changed to red. I can't remember the logo for it though, think it was Greater Glasgow.

The logo was, strangely enough, "Strathclyde Buses" as shown in this pic

Strathclyde Buses Leyland Olympian LO 1

The first Glasgow Olympian ..was she destroyed in the Larkfield fire or just disappear to the breaker's yard ?

www.flickr.com

When it was under the control of the grandly named "Greater Glasow Passenger Transport Executive" the logo was originally "GG" in the style of the British Rail pantograph logo.

Later on they added "Trans Clyde" to the logo https://www.flickriver.com/photos/77000628@N02/sets/72157634992113840/

 

[Joerf21]

Great photos, a lot i have never seen

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2022 ==

I have checked, their was red buses re-named after strathclyde buses, and their logo was greater glasgow, sorry i have no photos of them

 

[DunsBus]

The logo was, strangely enough, "Strathclyde Buses" as shown in this pic

Strathclyde Buses Leyland Olympian LO 1

The first Glasgow Olympian ..was she destroyed in the Larkfield fire or just disappear to the breaker's yard ?

www.flickr.com

When it was under the control of the grandly named "Greater Glasow Passenger Transport Executive" the logo was originally "GG" in the style of the British Rail pantograph logo.

Later on they added "Trans Clyde" to the logo https://www.flickriver.com/photos/77000628@N02/sets/72157634992113840/

More recently there was the ex-London B7/Gemini, 32567 (LK55ACO) which had the SBL heritage livery applied. Being the only Glasgow Gemini with gasket glazing, the SBL livery sat well on it. Just a pity that it met a fiery end.