First Greater Glasgow

[TheGrandWazoo]

the X1 is a pretty damaging cut and isn't going to benefit their profits at all.

Assuming it's loss making, it will benefit their profits!

 

[lastbus]

Assuming it's loss making, it will benefit their profits!

It’s 100% loss making hence the withdrawal.

 

[PaulMc7]

Assuming it's loss making, it will benefit their profits!

It will be loss-making but think about it this way. If it puts other people onto trains then it will ultimately lose them money overall. Say for example, someone stays a 10min walk from Hamilton Central but gets the X1 currently. They would save themselves money on a bus ticket by doing a short walk so ultimately First lose out on that money. It's a cut based on an assumption that everyone will use that 225 then a 255/263/267 but that definitely won't happen and given the reaction to it, there's been plenty of people who will switch to Scotrail over that and I don't blame them.

The only way a cut is really worth it is if it won't make them lose customers to other travel operators. Sadly with the 2 service cuts in October both will.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It will be loss-making but think about it this way. If it puts other people onto trains then it will ultimately lose them money overall. Say for example, someone stays a 10min walk from Hamilton Central but gets the X1 currently. They would save themselves money on a bus ticket by doing a short walk so ultimately First lose out on that money. It's a cut based on an assumption that everyone will use that 225 then a 255/263/267 but that definitely won't happen and given the reaction to it, there's been plenty of people who will switch to Scotrail over that and I don't blame them

If you can't understand how your logic is flawed by now, I don't think you can be helped

 

[PaulMc7]

If you can't understand how your logic is flawed by now, I don't think you can be helped

What so because I don't think the same way as you and actually realise you have to consider the aftermath then you hit out with rubbish like that? Smarter cuts to PVR would be through running some of the most frequent services at a lower frequency but with deckers over singles. 2,3,6 etc. You don't cut things that will lead to bad publicity especially in 2019 where money is tight for the majority of people and social media dominates everything.

Bad publicity makes people vote with their feet and First and bus operators in general are realising this now as numbers are dwindling fast.

2- Every 10mins with more deckers
3- Every 12mins with more deckers
6/6A- Every 12mins with more deckers
9/9A- Every 15mins with deckers
21-Every 30 mins with all deckers

That's a few just off of the top of my head but that's a few buses cut from the PVR immediately in a better way that sees nobody lose a service

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What so because I don't think the same way as you and actually realise you have to consider the aftermath then you hit out with rubbish like that? Smarter cuts to PVR would be through running some of the most frequent services at a lower frequency but with deckers over singles. 2,3,6 etc. You don't cut things that will lead to bad publicity especially in 2019 where money is tight for the majority of people and social media dominates everything.

Bad publicity makes people vote with their feet and First and bus operators in general are realising this now as numbers are dwindling fast.

2- Every 10mins with more deckers
3- Every 12mins with more deckers
6/6A- Every 12mins with more deckers
9/9A- Every 15mins with deckers
21-Every 30 mins with all deckers

That's a few just off of the top of my head but that's a few buses cut from the PVR immediately in a better way that sees nobody lose a service

No - because you’re wrong and I’ve 20+ years as a transport manager off the back of a Business and Transport degree.

What’s your experience?

 

[PaulMc7]

No - because you’re wrong and I’ve 20+ years as a transport manager off the back of a Business and Transport degree.

What’s your experience?

Ah the classic "you're wrong, I'm right because of this etc" can you seriously not see that First's cuts have lost them customers?

You can have all the experience in the world but we are in a totally different time now and reality is First are responsible for a tragic at best "cut,cut,cut" approach that is coming back to haunt them and continually turns people away from their services.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ah the classic "you're wrong, I'm right because of this etc" can you seriously not see that First's cuts have lost them customers?

Well yes. You are wrong and there’s reasons why.

Why? What is your professional experience that tells you otherwise?

 

[PaulMc7]

Well yes. You are wrong and there’s reasons why.

Why? What is your professional experience that tells you otherwise?

Our opinions differ get over it. I may not have the experience but any decision anyone makes has a consequence and you don't need experience to see what happens when you create bad publicity for yourself plus using the buses constantly I've seen the numbers dwindle first hand right infront of me

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Our opinions differ get over it. I may not have the experience but any decision anyone makes has a consequence and you don't need experience to see what happens when you create bad publicity for yourself plus using the buses constantly I've seen the numbers dwindle first hand right infront of me

Glad we sorted that out - just anecdotal stuff then.

Let me illustrate why your thinking is flawed. The X1 is apparently losing as it has decent one way flows but little counter cyclical and off peak is dominated by concessions. Even dropping it to hourly off peak (which doubtless they will have investigated) saves very little in terms of cost because much of the cost is fixed.

Now if you’re saying you can save 5 vehicles elsewhere by dropping other services, that’s even worse. It doesn’t stop the X1 from losing money. However, it also reduces the attractiveness of those services too that are making money. So double the negative impact.

The fallacy of that sort of move was proven in the bus industry many years ago.

 

[PaulMc7]

Glad we sorted that out - just anecdotal stuff then.

Let me illustrate why your thinking is flawed. The X1 is apparently losing as it has decent one way flows but little counter cyclical and off peak is dominated by concessions. Even dropping it to hourly off peak (which doubtless they will have investigated) saves very little in terms of cost because much of the cost is fixed.

Now if you’re saying you can save 5 vehicles elsewhere by dropping other services, that’s even worse. It doesn’t stop the X1 from losing money. However, it also reduces the attractiveness of those services too that are making money. So double the negative impact.

The fallacy of that sort of move was proven in the bus industry many years ago.

Out of the services I mentioned about cuts and deckers being used more the 3,6/6A and 9/9A already have constant reductions because of the holiday timetables and remain very busy during those holiday timetables. As I've also said the cut is handing customers to Scotrail and that's why it shouldn't have happened. Even with the 2 cut in August that wasn't the smartest of moves either as despite the trains being stronger there, you just don't push people onto them. You've constantly ignored that there's clearly a foresight failure somewhere if they thought everyone from the X1 was going to use the 225 then 255/263/267 and that's why it's a poor cut to make. I never believe in running massive loss makers but you don't leave customers with no option but to use other operators as the long term effect will be more damaging than the short term not to mention colleges and unis have literally just started back so more people will need it now than before

I get what you're saying but consequences are massive here and will turn people away

Even have it run peaks into Glasgow but Hamilton off peak? Would surely have been a far more understanding move and not damaging while losing customers

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Out of the services I mentioned about cuts and deckers being used more the 3,6/6A and 9/9A already have constant reductions because of the holiday timetables and remain very busy during those holiday timetables. As I've also said the cut is handing customers to Scotrail and that's why it shouldn't have happened. Even with the 2 cut in August that wasn't the smartest of moves either as despite the trains being stronger there, you just don't push people onto them. You've constantly ignored that there's clearly a foresight failure somewhere if they thought everyone from the X1 was going to use the 225 then 255/263/267 and that's why it's a poor cut to make. I never believe in running massive loss makers but you don't leave customers with no option but to use other operators as the long term effect will be more damaging than the short term not to mention colleges and unis have literally just started back so more people will need it now than before

I get what you're saying but consequences are massive here and will turn people away

Even have it run peaks into Glasgow but Hamilton off peak? Would surely have been a far more understanding move and not damaging while losing customers

It’s not a foresight failure. They KNOW that they’re losing money. Clearly they feel that even if they try to spend some money on it, it won’t be enough.

However, if they’re losing money, they are prepared to lose those passengers to the train. It’s like manufacturing something that, even though there’s a demand, you lose a fiver on every one you sell. You wouldn’t do it.

 

[alangla]

What's the history of the X1? I don't remember it from Central Scottish/ Kelvin Central days, but then there was a limit to how many timetables I could justify asking for at Buchanan back in those black and white days (when you couldn't just google everything)... was it introduced by First?

Definitely not a First creation. I remember KCB having L or M plate Royales, I think with Routemaster numberplates, with gold bands between the decks as branding for the service.

 

[PaulMc7]

It’s not a foresight failure. They KNOW that they’re losing money. Clearly they feel that even if they try to spend some money on it, it won’t be enough.

However, if they’re losing money, they are prepared to lose those passengers to the train. It’s like manufacturing something that, even though there’s a demand, you lose a fiver on every one you sell. You wouldn’t do it.

Talking a good amount though if people switch over which is why it's still a bad move. Even on the app a 4 week network ticket is £66.50 and that adds up if you consider 10 weeks and yearly on top of that. Seen comments from people who just got new yearly tickets who are understandably livid with it. They were literally telling people to use the 255/263/267 like anyone would actually do it. That is a poor foresight move. As I say, cutting it off peak to between Davington Drive and Palace Retail Park and keep peaks the same as current service would have been a smarter move and still drop PVR by 2 which the whole aim of the cuts has been about.

Just seen another interesting point. The X11 goes on the M74 yet congestion isn't an issue for that. Backs up what I said earlier about the absolute rubbish excuses they used regarding cutting it plus the X11 is a lot like the X1. Mobbed at peaks quiet during the day

 

[smtglasgow]

Those X1 Royales are the first new buses I remember so must be 1993/4 – they were very distinctive (and smart) with the gold band on the KCB Network livery. On Sundays they operated on KCB’s 43 (basically today’s 240) which went past my mum and dad’s house. I would have been about 10, so new double deckers in a sea of knackered old leopards and tigers was very exciting.

 

[156478]

The gap between the Harsh economics of bus operation is getting in the way of reality and what people think a bus service should be operated really is huge.

Ultimately despite what many think, bus operators and their decision makers are not as foolish as you may think.

First will have done their homework and the commercially sensitive figures will have been factored into whether the route can be cross subsidised by other services. I would really like to know how much this service costs to operate and then factor this against the actual revenue- that is cold hard cash that is going into the vaults on the buses. Concessionary fares and Season Tickets then muddy the waters further. There was a picture on Social Media showing a massive crowd of older people boarding the X1 in Hamilton Town Centre and at the risk of accusations of stereotyping I can almost guarantee they were all Concessions. And before the bun fight begins that is not a slight on Concession Card holders, but the Scheme is nothing but a good thing socially but a disaster for bus operators and is consistent nightmare for bus operators trying to balance the books.
The £35 per hour costs mentioned in this thread is a very realistic figure once you factor in all the costs- seen and unseen to the customer. Is an X1 taking in more than £35 an hour in hard cash? Probably not.

Running the X1 at peak times only and hourly between the peaks will only make the service lose marginally less money and making it hourly is only making it less attractive to operate for customers. Who is going to wait (for instance) 40 minutes for the next X1 when you can get on the 255 or 263 or worst case the 267 there and then and still be in Glasgow quicker than waiting for the X1?

Between the peaks it takes four buses to run and it appears to have 5 journeys running as peak extras. This service must be an absolute efficency nightmare with drivers picking up the bus from Blantyre Depot running empty to Hillhouse then in service into Glasgow and then empty back to the Depot to then lie about in the depot to then go back empty back along the motorway to Charing Cross to take everyone back home again.

And dont forget the X1 uses Buchannan and Hamilton bus stations- which are SPT owned and which First will have to pay Stance Departure Fees. On the SPT website Buchannan Bus Station costs £1.05 (local) or £3.55 (express) per departure and Hamilton Bus Station costs 63p (local) or £2.13 (express) per departure.

 

[PaulMc7]

The gap between the Harsh economics of bus operation is getting in the way of reality and what people think a bus service should be operated really is huge.

Ultimately despite what many think, bus operators and their decision makers are not as foolish as you may think.

First will have done their homework and the commercially sensitive figures will have been factored into whether the route can be cross subsidised by other services. I would really like to know how much this service costs to operate and then factor this against the actual revenue- that is cold hard cash that is going into the vaults on the buses. Concessionary fares and Season Tickets then muddy the waters further. There was a picture on Social Media showing a massive crowd of older people boarding the X1 in Hamilton Town Centre and at the risk of accusations of stereotyping I can almost guarantee they were all Concessions. And before the bun fight begins that is not a slight on Concession Card holders, but the Scheme is nothing but a good thing socially but a disaster for bus operators and is consistent nightmare for bus operators trying to balance the books.
The £35 per hour costs mentioned in this thread is a very realistic figure once you factor in all the costs- seen and unseen to the customer. Is an X1 taking in more than £35 an hour in hard cash? Probably not.

Running the X1 at peak times only and hourly between the peaks will only make the service lose marginally less money and making it hourly is only making it less attractive to operate for customers. Who is going to wait (for instance) 40 minutes for the next X1 when you can get on the 255 or 263 or worst case the 267 there and then and still be in Glasgow quicker than waiting for the X1?

Between the peaks it takes four buses to run and it appears to have 5 journeys running as peak extras. This service must be an absolute efficency nightmare with drivers picking up the bus from Blantyre Depot running empty to Hillhouse then in service into Glasgow and then empty back to the Depot to then lie about in the depot to then go back empty back along the motorway to Charing Cross to take everyone back home again.

And dont forget the X1 uses Buchannan and Hamilton bus stations- which are SPT owned and which First will have to pay Stance Departure Fees. On the SPT website Buchannan Bus Station costs £1.05 (local) or £3.55 (express) per departure and Hamilton Bus Station costs 63p (local) or £2.13 (express) per departure.

Doesn't use Hamilton Bus Station but that's great info to know. Could even take it out of Buchanan Bus Station but it would be hard to position another terminus. Yeah I agree that it's a nightmare to arrange drivers etc. Think it's Quarry St it current changes drivers at too which isn't great either. I can agree with you regarding older people and using it. It's quite a mix around Hamilton but mainly older into Glasgow from experience. A lot of these figures will be a bit interesting to know too especially since colleges have been back a month max and unis just a week or 2 now. I think that's part of the problem with First though with every service. There's mainly backlash because it's taking a route away from people that don't know much about income vs costs etc and just see cuts whereas the ideas we all have on here are based around a lot of things. Would it be less damaging to First's reputation if they gave customers an insight into the numbers behind it? No but sadly they won't ever do it because they're awful at consulting passengers here and that's why I think that it's a big issue that's going to keep arising each time they make a cut especially now that MSPs etc have got involved more than normal. If they even turned it into a loop route around Fairhill, Hillhouse and Burnbank it could even help it out a little with passengers because it would still be quicker than a 263/267 into Glasgow.

Hourly on each side would still give people a chance to use it locally and into Glasgow

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I've said it's tough because of things like that. All is evident to see though that First's "cut,cut,cut" approach is damaging to passenger numbers. There's plenty of other factors too but when there's that approach coupled with 3 price increases in a year in a half then things will get worse and turn people away. It doesn't take a genius to work that out either. There's rarely a positive response to anything they tweet etc and granted that Glasgow is populated with moaners it's still very concerning

Lol believe me, Edinburgh has them too!

 

[lastbus]

Talking a good amount though if people switch over which is why it's still a bad move. Even on the app a 4 week network ticket is £66.50 and that adds up if you consider 10 weeks and yearly on top of that. Seen comments from people who just got new yearly tickets who are understandably livid with it. They were literally telling people to use the 255/263/267 like anyone would actually do it. That is a poor foresight move. As I say, cutting it off peak to between Davington Drive and Palace Retail Park and keep peaks the same as current service would have been a smarter move and still drop PVR by 2 which the whole aim of the cuts has been about.

Just seen another interesting point. The X11 goes on the M74 yet congestion isn't an issue for that. Backs up what I said earlier about the absolute rubbish excuses they used regarding cutting it plus the X11 is a lot like the X1. Mobbed at peaks quiet during the day

The X11 is not quiet through the day some X1s were taking 2 or 3 passengers into city and back out off peak. Unsustainable. PVR is peak vehicle requirement so your plan doesn’t cut it by 2 it cuts it by zero.

 

[156478]

Doesn't use Hamilton Bus Station but that's great info to know. Could even take it out of Buchanan Bus Station but it would be hard to position another terminus. Yeah I agree that it's a nightmare to arrange drivers etc. Think it's Quarry St it current changes drivers at too which isn't great either. I can agree with you regarding older people and using it. It's quite a mix around Hamilton but mainly older into Glasgow from experience. A lot of these figures will be a bit interesting to know too especially since colleges have been back a month max and unis just a week or 2 now. I think that's part of the problem with First though with every service. There's mainly backlash because it's taking a route away from people that don't know much about income vs costs etc and just see cuts whereas the ideas we all have on here are based around a lot of things. Would it be less damaging to First's reputation if they gave customers an insight into the numbers behind it? No but sadly they won't ever do it because they're awful at consulting passengers here and that's why I think that it's a big issue that's going to keep arising each time they make a cut especially now that MSPs etc have got involved more than normal. If they even turned it into a loop route around Fairhill, Hillhouse and Burnbank it could even help it out a little with passengers because it would still be quicker than a 263/267 into Glasgow.

Hourly on each side would still give people a chance to use it locally and into Glasgow

Aha! The X1 used to use the bus station going to Glasgow if my memory serves me right and then probably taken out to save costs and mileage and getting stuck at all the traffic lights to get in and out.

An hourly express bus already exists from Hamilton to Glasgow- the Stagecoach X74, and this will end up soaking up some people who dont want to take a 255, 263 or 267.
https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s...les/West Scotland/X74 February 2019 (web).pdf

 

[PaulMc7]

The X11 is not quiet through the day some X1s were taking 2 or 3 passengers into city and back out off peak. Unsustainable. PVR is peak vehicle requirement so your plan doesn’t cut it by 2 it cuts it by zero.

Yeah that's why I suggested what I did as an alternate route. Still believe they should run some peaks even if it's less than before as they were always mobbed and it would have led to far less backlash. Thanks for clearing up PVR too.

 

[lastbus]

Doesn't use Hamilton Bus Station but that's great info to know. Could even take it out of Buchanan Bus Station but it would be hard to position another terminus. Yeah I agree that it's a nightmare to arrange drivers etc. Think it's Quarry St it current changes drivers at too which isn't great either. I can agree with you regarding older people and using it. It's quite a mix around Hamilton but mainly older into Glasgow from experience. A lot of these figures will be a bit interesting to know too especially since colleges have been back a month max and unis just a week or 2 now. I think that's part of the problem with First though with every service. There's mainly backlash because it's taking a route away from people that don't know much about income vs costs etc and just see cuts whereas the ideas we all have on here are based around a lot of things. Would it be less damaging to First's reputation if they gave customers an insight into the numbers behind it? No but sadly they won't ever do it because they're awful at consulting passengers here and that's why I think that it's a big issue that's going to keep arising each time they make a cut especially now that MSPs etc have got involved more than normal. If they even turned it into a loop route around Fairhill, Hillhouse and Burnbank it could even help it out a little with passengers because it would still be quicker than a 263/267 into Glasgow.

Hourly on each side would still give people a chance to use it locally and into Glasgow

The service has been under review for the past 18 months it’s not an overnight decision.

 

[156478]

The service has been under review for the past 18 months it’s not an overnight decision.

I can probably put good money they have been wanting to take it off for much longer than the past 18 months!

 

[PaulMc7]

Aha! The X1 used to use the bus station going to Glasgow if my memory serves me right and then probably taken out to save costs and mileage and getting stuck at all the traffic lights to get in and out.

An hourly express bus already exists from Hamilton to Glasgow- the Stagecoach X74, and this will end up soaking up some people who dont want to take a 255, 263 or 267.
https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/West Scotland/X74 February 2019 (web).pdf

The service has been under review for the past 18 months it’s not an overnight decision.

I admit it's a service I barely knew existed until a year or two ago and I've used it a handful of times. Problem is the timings of the X74 and the fact it's a different company meaning another ticket and people spending way extra than currently. I can handle longer journeys fairly well and even I wouldn't use a 255,263,267 after an X1 down. Talking like almost a 2 hour journey for some people. The backlash is well deserved imo due to the lack of communication with customers. If it's been under review for so long too then surely this could have been explained to customers far earlier than now and people might actually have used it more and made them realise if we lose this then it's our fault?

 

[lastbus]

I can probably put good money they have been wanting to take it off for much longer than the past 18 months!

It was meant to come off before now but it was given more time.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

No - because you’re wrong and I’ve 20+ years as a transport manager off the back of a Business and Transport degree.

What’s your experience?

A good job it wasn't a degree in public relations, much like all managers and directors...

Talking a good amount though if people switch over which is why it's still a bad move. Even on the app a 4 week network ticket is £66.50 and that adds up if you consider 10 weeks and yearly on top of that. Seen comments from people who just got new yearly tickets who are understandably livid with it. They were literally telling people to use the 255/263/267 like anyone would actually do it. That is a poor foresight move. As I say, cutting it off peak to between Davington Drive and Palace Retail Park and keep peaks the same as current service would have been a smarter move and still drop PVR by 2 which the whole aim of the cuts has been about.

Just seen another interesting point. The X11 goes on the M74 yet congestion isn't an issue for that. Backs up what I said earlier about the absolute rubbish excuses they used regarding cutting it plus the X11 is a lot like the X1. Mobbed at peaks quiet during the day

Again, which brings me onto my personal believes that completely removing the service saves not just on pvr counts and bus movements and purchasing of E6 vehicles..

 

[PaulMc7]

The way I see things is that consulting with customers is absolutely massive in 2019 and let's be honest it's one of the things First have been worst at. I think a lot of the ill feeling towards them wouldn't be half as bad if they explained the situation and told customers when a service was at risk instead of just cutting it out of nowhere. Social media is another woeful story for First and likewise that's a massive thing in 2019. If they could get those right then maybe passenger numbers would be far higher on a lot of services. Never quick enough to replace very damaged seating too although that's not all their fault as people are very frustrating and damage it quickly

 

[156478]

When it comes to consulation anyway, there is no way any company in this situation would have wanted to do a public consultation if you were to take off the X1.

If any company regardless of the colour of their buses and who ran them and who they used to work for, It would have not went down well breaking the news that they were wanting to take off such a popular but loss making service.

Most public meetings would probably end up the same way anyway.

The company representative tries to explain that the service does not meet it's costs.

Then people will start grumbling "but the buses are always full" and then become very heated about the competencies of the bus operator and how they should bring back the Corpy and the Scottish Bus Group.

The company representative will try to articulate that just because a bus is busy does not mean it is covering it's costs due to a multitude of reasons and expenses.

More grumbling as people don't agree and say the service is rubbish as its always late and that's the bus companies fault.

Company representative tries to affirm they have no control over the traffic and tries to again explain about the costs and expenses of running the service are not met by the revenue.

Conversation then rolls over to the bus company is just a bunch of fat cat profiteers and the buses would be better under public ownership. The "Public service" war cry would also be made.

Local MP or election candidate makes a political statement or says something to curry the favour over potential voters in the audience.

Company representative then gets verbally lynched and has to leave before the pitchforks come out.

Company does the changes anyway because it was the only option to keep the business going and the meeting was just to appease everyone.

 

[PaulMc7]

A good job it wasn't a degree in public relations, much like all managers and directors...

Again, which brings me onto my personal believes that completely removing the service saves not just on pvr counts and bus movements and purchasing of E6 vehicles..

Definitely agree with this, the big service cuts all involve services that use the LEZ and it's not a coincidence. Supposedly, in the August changes the 2's PVR fell by 8 which is extreme

 

[Jordan Adam]

When it comes to consulation anyway, there is no way any company in this situation would have wanted to do a public consultation if you were to take off the X1.

If any company regardless of the colour of their buses and who ran them and who they used to work for, It would have not went down well breaking the news that they were wanting to take off such a popular but loss making service.

I heavily disagree purely on the basis that's exactly what they've done in Aberdeen! Albeit not with the X1, but it's a like for like comparison. Albeit perhaps worse, because those loosing out don't have any alternatives unlike most X1 users.