First Greater Glasgow

[PaulMc7]

When it comes to consulation anyway, there is no way any company in this situation would have wanted to do a public consultation if you were to take off the X1.

If any company regardless of the colour of their buses and who ran them and who they used to work for, It would have not went down well breaking the news that they were wanting to take off such a popular but loss making service.

Most public meetings would probably end up the same way anyway.

The company representative tries to explain that the service does not meet it's costs.

Then people will start grumbling "but the buses are always full" and then become very heated about the competencies of the bus operator and how they should bring back the Corpy and the Scottish Bus Group.

The company representative will try to articulate that just because a bus is busy does not mean it is covering it's costs due to a multitude of reasons and expenses.

More grumbling as people don't agree and say the service is rubbish as its always late and that's the bus companies fault.

Company representative tries to affirm they have no control over the traffic and tries to again explain about the costs and expenses of running the service are not met by the revenue.

Conversation then rolls over to the bus company is just a bunch of fat cat profiteers and the buses would be better under public ownership. The "Public service" war cry would also be made.

Local MP or election candidate makes a political statement or says something to curry the favour over potential voters in the audience.

Company representative then gets verbally lynched and has to leave before the pitchforks come out.

Company does the changes anyway because it was the only option to keep the business going and the meeting was just to appease everyone.

It wouldn't have went down well but at least the customers actually would have a chance to put their point across. The problem is that they never get that chance. Nothing has went down this bad for a while. The 4A out of Kelvindale is the last major one I can think of and the 4 out of Knightswood plus First do it in other areas so leaving out here just makes it a lot worse.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Personally I have taken little notice of most bus companies up till more recently, I have been looking at xplore Dundee, lothian buses and first Glasgows Web pages information etc.

I am gobsmacked that the last Network Map first used was for changes may back in January last year, since then a few things have changed.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

It wouldn't have went down well but at least the customers actually would have a chance to put their point across. The problem is that they never get that chance. Nothing has went down this bad for a while. The 4A out of Kelvindale is the last major one I can think of and the 4 out of Knightswood plus First do it in other areas so leaving out here just makes it a lot worse.

Yet they replaced it with an equally poorly performing x4, partially anyways..

 

[PaulMc7]

Yet they replaced it with an equally poorly performing x4, partially anyways..

The X4 is a nightmare too and runs exactly like the X1 but arguably even quieter. There's times going into Glasgow City Centre that I've seen an X4 completely empty. Can see that being cut if it continues though although it's a handy service when the rugby is on and considering First and Glasgow Warriors have advertised together then it might save it a bit longer

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A good job it wasn't a degree in public relations, much like all managers and directors...

Again, which brings me onto my personal believes that completely removing the service saves not just on pvr counts and bus movements and purchasing of E6 vehicles..

Absolutely right. Sometimes you have to realise what you're good at.... and what you're not, eh?

 

[156478]

A good job it wasn't a degree in public relations, much like all managers and directors...

Again, which brings me onto my personal believes that completely removing the service saves not just on pvr counts and bus movements and purchasing of E6 vehicles..

Morning peak journeys on the X1 into Glasgow then run empty back to Blantyre Depot, and then in the afternoon buses have to go from the depot back empty to Glasgow to then work one journey back- it used to run as a Gingy run. That is not efficient nor profitable for any operator. Drivers still want paid to take the bus empty to the depot. Buses still burn fuel on the empty run to the depot. Buses are not making money parked in the depot between duties. What can you do to maybe sweat the assets inbetween - bearing in mind most come back to the depot around 9am onwards and need to be heading back into Glasgow around 3/4pm? You could run them on extras on the 226 but can the takings on that balance out the empty workings to and from Glasgow? Probably not- and then again the times when you could use these buses for extra runs on more local routes is probably not the times that you would have them- at the peaks.

It will of course save them a ton of money, cynical yes, popular no.

 

[lastbus]

Definitely agree with this, the big service cuts all involve services that use the LEZ and it's not a coincidence. Supposedly, in the August changes the 2's PVR fell by 8 which is extreme

It’s not extreme when you factor in the withdrawal from Airdrie. Again a route that was not making money. At the end of the day First Glasgow is a business. The Scottish government are partly to blame for routes being cut. They keep cutting the percentage of money given to operators for concessions. Hence the extortionate price of single fares on some routes.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Absolutely right. Sometimes you have to realise what you're good at.... and what you're not, eh?

Profoundly, I have learnt through many jobs that graduates often skip the bottom rung and go right to the top.

If what is said is true and that the famed x1 service has been under review for 18 months, why have there not been trial changes too the route, diverting it to Glasgow Fort, reductions off peak etc etc.

 

[156478]

I heavily disagree purely on the basis that's exactly what they've done in Aberdeen! Albeit not with the X1, but it's a like for like comparison. Albeit perhaps worse, because those loosing out don't have any alternatives unlike most X1 users.

Glasgow have not done many public consulatatons and by the looks of it, never will. Despite the press reports and the letters from MSPs and any other adverse media feedback or story the vast majority of the time they have went ahead and made their changes anyway. That's by no means a dig at Glasgow, but it is the way it is.

Years ago they did do a Route Development Plan, and that was where the company had strong proposals for service alterations and improvements and it invited limited feedback. But this didn't catch on and a few years later it stopped.

They know what they want to do and it will be done.

 

[PaulMc7]

It’s not extreme when you factor in the withdrawal from Airdrie. Again a route that was not making money. At the end of the day First Glasgow is a business. The Scottish government are partly to blame for routes being cut. They keep cutting the percentage of money given to operators for concessions. Hence the extortionate price of single fares on some routes.

Yeah as much as I'm a big SNP fan that I absolutely agree with and it's another thing people aren't aware of except a small percentage of us.

 

[PaulMc7]

Profoundly, I have learnt through many jobs that graduates often skip the bottom rung and go right to the top.

If what is said is true and that the famed x1 service has been under review for 18 months, why have there not been trial changes too the route, diverting it to Glasgow Fort, reductions off peak etc etc.

This is what I've thought too. They've not really made any changes to it in the last 18 months if any so what did they expect to happen regarding loss making?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Glasgow have not done many public consulatatons and by the looks of it, never will. Despite the press reports and the letters from MSPs and any other adverse media feedback or story the vast majority of the time they have went ahead and made their changes anyway. That's by no means a dig at Glasgow, but it is the way it is.

Years ago they did do a Route Development Plan, and that was where the company had strong proposals for service alterations and improvements and it invited limited feedback. But this didn't catch on and a few years later it stopped.

They know what they want to do and it will be done.

Despite having the same MD Aberdeen/Scotland East and Glasgow have different operations directors, network planners etc. Hence why there's a difference in roll out.

 

[PaulMc7]

Despite having the same MD Aberdeen/Scotland East and Glasgow have different operations directors, network planners etc. Hence why there's a difference in roll out.

Good info to know. Definitely an MD job is a tough job to do these days especially for First

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I think it's more tit for tat in political circles versus bus companies.

The government don't want to see the right amount of money going back to bus operators despite it being the moral, right thing to do...

Bus operators are very much big on profiting as much as possible plus when there is expansive knowledge that First Group have considerable debts at the top, if becomes more Understandable for anyone why private firms shouldn't benefit from tax payers cash.

 

[overthewater]

Just because an MD isn’t an enthusiast doesn’t mean they’re a sociopath either.
Andrew Jarvis is a life long bus man. His dad was before him. He’s no fool and is having to cope with a raft of challenges. Some are FG specific (e.g. capital availability), some are simply business - all firms have financial targets whether it’s profit or ROI. Some are local (e.g. Aberdeen economy or Glasgow LEZ) and are route specific.

I’ve said it ad nauseum - First Bus didn’t get into its mess in a year and to extricate itself was going to take longer and it was less well prepared to cope with the wider industry challenges. Hopefully, its split from FG will remove some constraints that shackle it. PS - Douglas Robertson was who I was referring to.

It was that douglas I was thinking off, there a few Andrew Jarvis does seem to have to deal with alot more issues and pressure than anyone else which is a shame.

#######

With what else has been said in this thread, Im not change my mind with cutlock, a good whack of his awful awful changes in fife have been rolled back, if there that great there would still be in place.

First Glasgow has failed in reasonable attempted to justify the cuts to the x1, because it's down nothing. It can't use the M74 as said because the X11 goes the same way and is just as good. X1 could have been taken out of Buchanan bus station to save money but no, it could have scaled by off peak? revised more peaks to interwork with other duties. And we still can't trust them over ticket machine info we have had a finger burnt too many times.....

 

[PaulMc7]

It was that douglas I was thinking off, there a few Andrew Jarvis does seem to have to deal with alot more issues and pressure than anyone else which is a shame.

#######

With what else has been said in this thread, Im not change my mind with cutlock, a good whack of his awful awful changes in fife have been rolled back, if there that great there would still be in place.

First Glasgow has failed in reasonable attempted to justify the cuts to the x1, because it's down nothing. It can't use the M74 as said because the X11 goes the same way and is just as good. X1 could have been taken out of Buchanan bus station to save money but no, it could have scaled by off peak? revised more peaks to interwork with other duties. And we still can't trust them over ticket machine info we have had a finger burnt too many times.....

The M74 excuse was laughable tbh and it definitely could have been reworked. Even if the problem was the time it took to bring buses from Blantyre to City Centre at peak time could they not just have rerouted the way that they went into Glasgow to start? The 1s manage from Dumbarton no bother as they end up running about 3 different routes to go into the city to start at peaks

 

[156478]

Despite having the same MD Aberdeen/Scotland East and Glasgow have different operations directors, network planners etc. Hence why there's a difference in roll out.

Different markets. What works in Cults in Aberdeen and Craigshill in Livingston might not work in Croftfoot in Glasgow. They know their markets and they are all different.

in West Lothian they have a merciless competitor who has already chased them away from East and South of Edinburgh who is now is clipping away at their heels in the bit they wanted to keep.
In Falkirk and Stirling they are struggling to keep services profitable. The Stirling network can barely be called a "Network" anymore
in Aberdeen they are losing a ton of money
in Glasgow thay have the worst vandalism but what profit they dont waste on repairing it keeps the rest of the companies afloat.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Profoundly, I have learnt through many jobs that graduates often skip the bottom rung and go right to the top.

If what is said is true and that the famed x1 service has been under review for 18 months, why have there not been trial changes too the route, diverting it to Glasgow Fort, reductions off peak etc etc.

Well, I don't know how you have been affected but I'd guard against tarring everyone. I don't know how many bus company managers/graduates you know. I've met some and some are friends. They've not just come in; they had to do the hard yards, in depots in the dead of night and working weekends and yes, driving buses. Oh, and they tend to be very passionate, pro public transport individuals. However they have to run a business and that doesn't mean running services at a loss to be nice. They tend to take a wider view so sometimes they will run journeys for the greater good but sometimes, routes just won't survive.

As for the X1, as has been explained, reducing it off peak saves very little cost.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It was that douglas I was thinking off, there a few Andrew Jarvis does seem to have to deal with alot more issues and pressure than anyone else which is a shame.

#######

With what else has been said in this thread, Im not change my mind with cutlock, a good whack of his awful awful changes in fife have been rolled back, if there that great there would still be in place.

First Glasgow has failed in reasonable attempted to justify the cuts to the x1, because it's down nothing. It can't use the M74 as said because the X11 goes the same way and is just as good. X1 could have been taken out of Buchanan bus station to save money but no, it could have scaled by off peak? revised more peaks to interwork with other duties. And we still can't trust them over ticket machine info we have had a finger burnt too many times.....

Jarvis has had lots to deal with, much of which wasn't his fault, but rather the fault of previous managements. The contract changes in Aberdeen last year should've been done year prior when everywhere else did them, lack of fleet replacement in Glasgow, lack of repaints in general etc.

As for Cutlocks, his 'regime' were to blame for much of the cut backs at NScot, however the management after him have been no better, albeit they are far more ambitious.

Different markets. What works in Cults in Aberdeen and Craigshill in Livingston might not work in Croftfoot in Glasgow. They know their markets and they are all different.

in West Lothian they have a merciless competitor who has already chased them away from East and South of Edinburgh who is now is clipping away at their heels in the bit they wanted to keep.
In Falkirk and Stirling they are struggling to keep services profitable. The Stirling network can barely be called a "Network" anymore
in Aberdeen they are losing a ton of money
in Glasgow thay have the worst vandalism but what profit they dont waste on repairing it keeps the rest of the companies afloat.

Odd comparison of places, especially using Cults as an example. Anyway! Aberdeen made a loss for one year however are profitable again. And could easily get back to making £3.5M a year again with some decent investment. It's hardly as if they're at the cliff edge crying for help.

 

[156478]

Well, I don't know how you have been affected but I'd guard against tarring everyone. I don't know how many bus company managers/graduates you know. I've met some and some are friends. They've not just come in; they had to do the hard yards, in depots in the dead of night and working weekends and yes, driving buses. Oh, and they tend to be very passionate, pro public transport individuals. However they have to run a business and that doesn't mean running services at a loss to be nice. They tend to take a wider view so sometimes they will run journeys for the greater good but sometimes, routes just won't survive.

As for the X1, as has been explained, reducing it off peak saves very little cost.

Agreed on all points.

The journeys that are left on an hourly will still lose money! If anything they will eventually lose even more money as even less people will want to wait for a bus that only runs hourly and will end up getting a 255, 263 or 267 out of frustration and probably still get into Glasgow sooner than waiting for the X1.

People will say "oh I'll still use it if it's hourly", but if its chucking it down with rain or the X1 hourly was late or didn't show at all more than a few times than they would like and they lose what little faith they have in it left, they would just say "sod it, I'll just take a slow bus or the train".

 

[PaulMc7]

Agreed on all points.

The journeys that are left on an hourly will still lose money! If anything they will eventually lose even more money as even less people will want to wait for a bus that only runs hourly and will end up getting a 255, 263 or 267 out of frustration and probably still get into Glasgow sooner than waiting for the X1.

People will say "oh I'll still use it if it's hourly", but if its chucking it down with rain or the X1 hourly was late or didn't show at all more than a few times than they would like and they lose what little faith they have in it left, they would just say "sod it, I'll just take a slow bus or the train".

I think the last bit of this is the key thing. "Or the train" isn't something a company that's trying to make itself as attractive as possible to sell should be looking to leave people with. It's also a bridge burner for a lot of people and in a fairly big town that's crucial. The fact there's also been no changes to it at all in the last 18 months is also very poor. If the loss making was already such an issue then it shows a bit of laziness to even try and improve it. If it failed after trying new things then fair enough but the fact it hasn't really doesn't help their case

 

[156478]

Profoundly, I have learnt through many jobs that graduates often skip the bottom rung and go right to the top.

If what is said is true and that the famed x1 service has been under review for 18 months, why have there not been trial changes too the route, diverting it to Glasgow Fort, reductions off peak etc etc.

Diverting it to the Fort would need more buses. Its a 50 minute journey off peak and would add at least 6 minutes to the journey especially for going into Glasgow with all the traffic lights at the side of the Morrisons. Diverting it into the Fort will need an extra bus or two to keep it reliable as a 4 minute turnaround for such a service is not workable. Have you seen the Fort at Christmas Shopping Season where people just find a space anywhere and dump their car? Even at a non festive weekend Its absolute gridlock with quoues on the sliproads.

How many people would realistically go to the Fort on the bus when the Hamilton Palace Retail park or even East Kilbride on the 201 is much closer?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I understand that geologically every place regarding a bus network is multi faceted, of course the bus diverting into the fort would give extra choice, not every one would want the fort but not everyone will put the 201 on a pedestal either.

I am completely in favour of "proper" restrictions on the car centric policies and car users directly this country and world for that matter has developed.

It never fails to amuse me the sheer ignorance the general public has of littering everywhere with a car, there will literally be hundreds of people within walking distance to the fort yet thousands of residents around glasgow who could use sustainable modes of transport on a daily basis for work etc, not just for the weekend.

 

[overthewater]

It should be notice during the 10 years First controlled Scotrail Rail passengers with Greater glasgow went up while bus passengers went down....

 

[PaulMc7]

I understand that geologically every place regarding a bus network is multi faceted, of course the bus diverting into the fort would give extra choice, not every one would want the fort but not everyone will put the 201 on a pedestal either.

I am completely in favour of "proper" restrictions on the car centric policies and car users directly this country and world for that matter has developed.

It never fails to amuse me the sheer ignorance the general public has of littering everywhere with a car, there will literally be hundreds of people within walking distance to the fort yet thousands of residents around glasgow who could use sustainable modes of transport on a daily basis for work etc, not just for the weekend.

In terms of shops etc the Fort is miles ahead of anything in Hamilton and East Kilbride plus an express could get to the fort quicker than a 201 does to EK. Would say as far as shopping goes the fort is in the top 3 places along with Braehead and Silverburn. Funny you mention about sustainability. A lot of people act like the buses are the worst for emissions etc. It's proven that it's possible to change that but even the LEZ is more lenient on cars than it is buses in terms of engine requirements etc so how can bus companies really win? The problem with a lot of changes and cuts first make is that there's zero changes in advance before a cut. A lot of people would be fine with attempts and variation to try and save services but when they don't consult then they can only miss out on feedback that could give them more profit

 

[Gingerbus1991]

It should be notice during the 10 years First controlled Scotrail Rail passengers with Greater glasgow went up while bus passengers went down....

Generally speaking that would've happened anyways regardless of the scotrail operator.

Between buses versus trains, whether it be true or not, train services may be more expensive but if they really are subsidised more heavily than buses it's an unfair playing ground.

Personally I feel it defeats the purpose of using public transport when you take the train as generally train users drive to a train station, very odd in a lot of circumstances.

 

[tbtc]

Definitely not a First creation. I remember KCB having L or M plate Royales, I think with Routemaster numberplates, with gold bands between the decks as branding for the service.

Those X1 Royales are the first new buses I remember so must be 1993/4 – they were very distinctive (and smart) with the gold band on the KCB Network livery. On Sundays they operated on KCB’s 43 (basically today’s 240) which went past my mum and dad’s house. I would have been about 10, so new double deckers in a sea of knackered old leopards and tigers was very exciting.

Interesting - cheers both - a gap in my knowledge filled!

The X11 is not quiet through the day

Interesting that the X11 is doing well, when the X1 isn't - there's certainly a reasonable train service from Motherwell into Glasgow (now that the Lanark services no longer take the detour they used to - it could certainly be better but at least it's improved) - or is it the case that the X11 serves enough of a market beyond Motherwell (Wishaw etc) whilst the X1 only serves suburban Hamilton, so there's less of a market for the X1 beyond Hamilton compared to the population served by the X11 beyond Motherwell?

 

[PaulMc7]

Interesting - cheers both - a gap in my knowledge filled!



Interesting that the X11 is doing well, when the X1 isn't - there's certainly a reasonable train service from Motherwell into Glasgow (now that the Lanark services no longer take the detour they used to - it could certainly be better but at least it's improved) - or is it the case that the X11 serves enough of a market beyond Motherwell (Wishaw etc) whilst the X1 only serves suburban Hamilton, so there's less of a market for the X1 beyond Hamilton compared to the population served by the X11 beyond Motherwell?

I think that's definitely a factor plus how long winded the route of the X1 is even off peak. Gaps could easily be filled with the local services and make the X1 far more direct instead of it taking just as long from Davington Drive to Hamilton town centre as it does from Hamilton town centre to Glasgow. I also think the fact other services cover most of its route in Hamilton takes away local customers. Think it's only part of Mill Road and Davington Drive itself that aren't served by other buses.

As much as the X11 route is around the same length it's far more direct and covers more areas in the same timeframe. Doesn't run very late but it's definitely better at drawing in customers

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Those X1 Royales are the first new buses I remember so must be 1993/4 – they were very distinctive (and smart) with the gold band on the KCB Network livery. On Sundays they operated on KCB’s 43 (basically today’s 240) which went past my mum and dad’s house. I would have been about 10, so new double deckers in a sea of knackered old leopards and tigers was very exciting.

The X1 was introduced at the time these fine motors entered service.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/57727...-FRF2yn-25hgZsU-2gbSJSc-2gbT4wk-qqxfoo-8RJCsX

 

[Gingerbus1991]

"Graeme Macfarlan, commercial director for First Glasgow, said: “At First Glasgow, we conduct a review of our network on a regular basis to ensure that our coverage remains in line with demand for our services in a given area.
Understandable.

“As a responsible operator, we also need to be mindful of the effects that operating services that carry very few, if any passengers at all, can have on the environment"
or because the firm can't way up the outlay on E6 vehicles so would rather try a new answer to the petition, emissions are the problems?

“The Service X1 is a route that has been in decline for a number of years in terms of passenger numbers, despite a number of efforts to make the route attractive to service users".
A Number of efforts? Perhaps Special fares? Using grubby B9TLs? Perhaps a pinch of good advertising and PR for the route? Perhaps upgrading to coach opp?

Nice try First, but you failed a case.

Posted on Daily Record...