First Great Western

[Greenback]

Fair enough. I was thinking of the East Midlands and East Coast, although I dislike the idea of a lot of diesels under the wires!

 

[Royston Vasey]

They take them with them.

I can't see that happening. I'd expect some sort of deal whereby they sell back the units to a ROSCO in return for an extension, which they undoubtedly deserve.

They are a bargaining chip, and a very valuable one.

As I said above though, even if First retained ownership, those sets don't have a great deal of market elsewhere. Plus it would be suicide if they held the DfT to ransom by threatening to withhold rolling stock, they would never be given another franchise!

 

[tbtc]

They are a bargaining chip, and a very valuable one

Indeed, which is why I'm surprised other big firms haven't bought some "standard" units (158s/ 321s? or equivalent to) that could be used on a number of franchises when needed - much much cheaper than leasing them - would pay for themselves after a few years

 

[455driver]

The DaFT put a stop to any other franchisee purchasing their own stock, it is understood that when the DaFT realised the problems that could be caused if the franchise was let to another operator they were less than impressed.

There is no way that the DaFT can force First Group to part with the stock so it gives FG the upper hand in any negotiations, a good move on their part indeed

 

[CarterUSM]

The DaFT put a stop to any other franchisee purchasing their own stock, it is understood that when the DaFT realised the problems that could be caused if the franchise was let to another operator they were less than impressed.

There is no way that the DaFT can force First Group to part with the stock so it gives FG the upper hand in any negotiations, a good move on their part indeed

I noticed on Angel trains website, that they are selling a few DVT's, I know they wouldn't suit many franchises, but why are they allowed to sell these?

 

[Templecombe]

I hope First lose The Bristol Weymouth Line And let someone who knows what they're doing take over

 

[Class 33]

What's wrong with the way FGW run the Bristol-Weymouth line? Trains not long enough, services not as frequent as they should be?

 

[Templecombe]

What's wrong with the way FGW run the Bristol-Weymouth line? Trains not long enough, services not as frequent as they should be?

Trains are not as freqent as they should be sometimes never even showing up trains aren't long enouhg in the summer theres one way to solve the crowding problem and increase use of the line
get rid of the units and hire in from DRS/DBS/WC
some coaching stock
some 20s,37s.47s,57s,66,67,73,the odd western deltic or steam hauled service will bring the punters in providing the service was more freqent.

 

[Aictos]

Trains are not as freqent as they should be sometimes never even showing up trains aren't long enouhg in the summer theres one way to solve the crowding problem and increase use of the line
get rid of the units and hire in from DRS/DBS/WC
some coaching stock
some 20s,37s.47s,57s,66,67,73,the odd western deltic or steam hauled service will bring the punters in providing the service was more freqent.

You forgot two important things, reliability and ease of operation which is why Multiple Units are much preferred by TOCs then Loco Hauled which in turned are very much preferred by rail enthusiasts.

Yes, FGW has hired in Loco Hauled to run services between Taunton and Cardiff, Bristol Temple Meads to Paignton and Bristol Temple Meads to Weymouth but if Multiple Units were available then it's a very safe bet that they would have been much preferred.

Granted, Wessex Trains and also Arriva both hired in Loco Hauled but that was just down to the shortage of Multiple Units.

Yes, National Express East Anglia had a Class 20 working on the Great Yarmouth to Norwich route but that was a exception and only because of a lack of trains, they could have just cancelled the trains and ran buses but that would not have gone down too well with locals.

Secondly it is not a preserved railway but don't worry you can still go to any preserved railway to see Deltics in action or join charters, there is a reason why charters are expensive and it's not the service, it's down to the locos and the coaches being so damn expensive to hire before you even add paths as well.

No, I think they do a good job down there with the resources available if you don't like it then tough, why don't you run your own service?

 

[Templecombe]

You forgot two important things, reliability and ease of operation which is why Multiple Units are much preferred by TOCs then Loco Hauled which in turned are very much preferred by rail enthusiasts.

Yes, FGW has hired in Loco Hauled to run services between Taunton and Cardiff, Bristol Temple Meads to Paignton and Bristol Temple Meads to Weymouth but if Multiple Units were available then it's a very safe bet that they would have been much preferred.

Granted, Wessex Trains and also Arriva both hired in Loco Hauled but that was just down to the shortage of Multiple Units.

Yes, National Express East Anglia had a Class 20 working on the Great Yarmouth to Norwich route but that was a exception and only because of a lack of trains, they could have just cancelled the trains and ran buses but that would not have gone down too well with locals.

Secondly it is not a preserved railway but don't worry you can still go to any preserved railway to see Deltics in action or join charters, there is a reason why charters are expensive and it's not the service, it's down to the locos and the coaches being so damn expensive to hire before you even add paths as well.

No, I think they do a good job down there with the resources available if you don't like it then tough, why don't you run your own service?

thats why I'm saying it should be a preserved line

 

[90019]

thats why I'm saying it should be a preserved line

Which would have a 25mph speed limit.

How long is that line?

 

[tbtc]

The DaFT put a stop to any other franchisee purchasing their own stock

How can the DFT stop (say) First from buying trains? As long as they are approved to run on UK lines (for safety issues etc), I can't see how DFT would be allowed to obstruct this?

 

[Templecombe]

Which would have a 25mph speed limit.

How long is that line?

it wouldn't have to techinaly be a preserved line just have loco hauled stock on it meaning no 25mph speed limit

 

[tbtc]

Trains are not as freqent as they should be sometimes never even showing up trains aren't long enouhg in the summer theres one way to solve the crowding problem and increase use of the line
get rid of the units and hire in from DRS/DBS/WC
some coaching stock
some 20s,37s.47s,57s,66,67,73,the odd western deltic or steam hauled service will bring the punters in providing the service was more freqent.

That's the kind of line it'd be a nightmare to run as a "stand alone" operation (needing spare coaches at weekends etc)

Plus no chance of getting paths at Bath/ Bristol

Plus most tourists are NOT train enthusiasts

No chance

 

[Templecombe]

That's the kind of line it'd be a nightmare to run as a "stand alone" operation (needing spare coaches at weekends etc)

Plus no chance of getting paths at Bath/ Bristol

Plus most tourists are NOT train enthusiasts

No chance

who made you minister for transport ?

most tourists I went on a few summer saturday 67s and there was loads of people just getting on for the 67 haulage
so its not as stupid as your trying to make it look

 

[tbtc]

who made you minister for transport ?

most tourists I went on a few summer saturday 67s and there was loads of people just getting on for the 67 haulage
so its not as stupid as your trying to make it look

Just stating the facts.

There are some enthusiasts out there who will seek trains no matter what

There are some members of the public who might make the effort to see a "special" train, but have little real interest

And then there are the vast majority of people

 

[90019]

who made you minister for transport ?

most tourists I went on a few summer saturday 67s and there was loads of people just getting on for the 67 haulage
so its not as stupid as your trying to make it look

By the same argument, whenever I've used the Fife Circle LHCS, it's only been commuters on it, some of whom would much prefer an MU. So, by that logic, there's no market at all.

Honestly though, to think that the train will be full of enthusiasts every day just because it's loco hauled (which it would need to be fairly full, otherwise there's no point in it) is just silly.

 

[Templecombe]

Just stating the facts.

There are some enthusiasts out there who will seek trains no matter what

There are some members of the public who might make the effort to see a "special" train, but have little real interest

And then there are the vast majority of people

which you seem to fit into ruinning it for everybody

 

[90019]

which you seem to fit into ruinning it for everybody

And therein lies the problem of the mentality of some enthusiasts.

 

[EWS 58038]

Whenever I'm in the UK I tend to stay away from FGW for as long as possible. I regret SWT is no longer allowed to run their services along the seawall. Reason for this is the terrible service I experienced when using First services. At a stormy day FGW just cancelled my London train and I had to wait fot 45 minutes before the next one turned up. All they did was a stupid computerised voice telling me they were feeling sorry for any inconvenience coused... Really, so I went to the clerk and kindly asked him for a cup of tea to overcome the inconvenience coused. I must have been out of my mind was FGW station staff respons. Seriousley, what is a cup of tea worth... 10p? Well even 10p is to much for FGW to invest in their customer care when THEY cancelled a train.

So no more FGW for me. "If the company name starts with First, be prepared for the worst" is my advice.

P.S. The station I was on was Dawlish, and I think I won't have to explain what the weather can be down there during a stormy day.

 

[Royston Vasey]

At a stormy day FGW just cancelled my London train and I had to wait fot 45 minutes before the next one turned up.

Come on, a 45 minute wait is inconvenient, at worst, but hardly worth boycotting them??

 

[Ivo]

The Heart of Wessex Line is one of Britain's biggest loss-makers. When the Serpell Report came out in the early 80s, it was cut in every suggestion he made; never mind the For-Profit Railway; he even cut it from the kindest example!

Think of it this way. There are seven busy areas on the line. These are Bristol, Bath, Trowbridge, Westbury, Yeovil, Dorchester and Weymouth (Westbury being busy not for settlement size and/or tourism but for its connections). Four of those are still covered at least twice an hour if the line was cut (we can safely say that the hourly stopper from Westbury to Bristol Parkway would survive). This leaves Yeovil, Dorchester and Weymouth, all of which are mainly served - from different stations in two examples - by SWT. Yeovil passengers will usually want to go to Exeter or Salisbury (granted, some wil want Bristol). Dorchester and Weymouth passengers will mostly want stations on the south coast to Southampton.

This is one of the line's flaws. It might provide a useful link at Weymouth, but what else is there? Even if the Yeovil stations were linked again it would still struggle (it might see a slight increase in flows from those going to Exeter and beyond from Bristol etc who want to avoid going through Taunton admittedly, but enthusiasts aside that's a long shot).

The other flaw is that it is a very seasonal line - and FGW do realise this. Trains are (sometimes) longer during the summer, and more services run on Sundays. But Weymouth alone isn't enough for this to be all that worthwhile. If you're going to the Dorset coast, why not choose Bournemouth?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Yeah it is

I think we have a feeling for your views from the last few posts! You seem to be getting bogged down in local issues, which are worth fighting for don't get me wrong, but your proposed solutions (locos, preserving the line etc) seem rather unrealistic and overestimate the pulling power - over a sustained period - of what enthusiasts might romanticise about. But real punters see 1960s locos and coaches as old and decrepit stock... even the current mainline locos you mention 20s, 37s, 47s, 57s, are nowhere near reliable enough. The 57s were rebuilt less than 10 years ago but have an appalling reliability record.

I have no interest in my taxes going to fund such folly.

 

[Zoe]

There is no way that the DaFT can force First Group to part with the stock so it gives FG the upper hand in any negotiations, a good move on their part indeed

This could in theory result in First retaining the franchise indefinitely.

 

[Aictos]

Just stating the facts.

There are some enthusiasts out there who will seek trains no matter what

There are some members of the public who might make the effort to see a "special" train, but have little real interest

And then there are the vast majority of people

I quite agree, your post clearly explains the different requirements of different people and as harsh as the facts might be, it's the truth.

Yeah it is

Uh no, it's not worth boycotting them just because of that :roll:

Some members here who commute day in and day out on both the Thameslink and Great Northern routes have had to put up with much worse but more then likely still use these services, besides FGW has improved greatly otherwise it wouldn't be Train Operator of the Year last year would it now/

This could in theory result in First retaining the franchise indefinitely.

Woohoo,

 

[scotsman]

which you seem to fit into ruinning it for everybody

Hold on a moment! The purpose of a railway is to move large numbers of people around as conveniently as possible. The most convenient solution for passengers (that is, the people the railway has to move around - not those who take an active interest in the operations of the railway) is multiple units, they are cost effective and require the least maintanence of the stock available to the operator.

Now, say your suggestion became reality. What would happen? You'd get more cancellations as loco-hauled stock is generally less reliable than units (especially somr of the older EE stuff you mentioned), journey times would increase as locos have slower accelleration and longer dwell times because of the manually operated doors. People who live near the line would complain about the extra noise from the locos passing their house (you may dream to live beside a railway where Deltics thrash by every so often, but the majority don't) and as a result, less people would use the railway and then enthusiasts would be the main users of the railway - which defeats it's own purpose. Hence, why we have preserved railways.

 

[Aictos]

Hold on a moment! The purpose of a railway is to move large numbers of people around as conveniently as possible. The most convenient solution for passengers (that is, the people the railway has to move around - not those who take an active interest in the operations of the railway) is multiple units, they are cost effective and require the least maintanence of the stock available to the operator.

Now, say your suggestion became reality. What would happen? You'd get more cancellations as loco-hauled stock is generally less reliable than units (especially somr of the older EE stuff you mentioned), journey times would increase as locos have slower accelleration and longer dwell times because of the manually operated doors. People who live near the line would complain about the extra noise from the locos passing their house (you may dream to live beside a railway where Deltics thrash by every so often, but the majority don't) and as a result, less people would use the railway and then enthusiasts would be the main users of the railway - which defeats it's own purpose. Hence, why we have preserved railways.

Damn right! Take the Gatwick Express which has gone from just 460s to having 442s on some services which increases the dwell times at stations leading to delays to other services.

It's bad enough with the current 313s with the local NIMBY at Hertford, add Locos to the mix and you're really asking for trouble.

As to scotsman's post above, I couldn't have put it any better myself!

 

[MCR247]

who made you minister for transport ?

most tourists I went on a few summer saturday 67s and there was loads of people just getting on for the 67 haulage
so its not as stupid as your trying to make it look

The trains are too short because they get busy, so lets get loco hauled trains so that they get busier with loco bashers? There is nothing that FGW can easily do about it really. I don't see how it would be different if Arriva were running it or anyone else

 

[starrymarkb]

Something else to remember is that the demand on the Weymouth line (along with the Skegness and similar lines) is influenced by the Weather, if its a crap day and chucking it down then you might struggle to fill a 153, if its hot and sunny then masses descend on coastbound trains. All well having a Deltic+12 on standby incase it's sunny but is it worth it?

 

[tbtc]

I quite agree, your post clearly explains the different requirements of different people and as harsh as the facts might be, it's the truth

No, apparently I'm an "idiot", and most people in the country are Gricers. I stand corrected