First Class Richmond to Shepperton?

[burgesst]

I notice that the train from Richmond to Shepperton in the evening has first class sections, but on-line or at a ticket machine, there seems to be no way to buy a first class ticket.

Does that mean I can sit there with my standard ticket ?

 

[transmanche]

I notice that the train from Richmond to Shepperton in the evening has first class sections, but on-line or at a ticket machine, there seems to be no way to buy a first class ticket.

Does that mean I can sit there with my standard ticket ?

Does the timetable say it is standard class only? IMO, if the timetable says it's a standard class only service then you can. (Others may not agree.) If the timetable shows it as having first class accommodation, then no.

 

[wibble]

Yes, you can sit in there - Shepperton services are Standard Class only. If the timeable or journey planner says there's no First Class, you can assume that any First Class areas are declassified.

 

[soil]

You can sit in 1st if the trains is not timetabled as having First.

Which they aren't, so yes you can.

The availability or otherwise of a first class ticket between two stations is not particularly the point (you can get first class travelcards).

 

[455driver]

Yes you can, I used to be a guard on that train.

The reason it has 1st class is because on arrival back at Waterloo it forms a service to Haslemere which does have 1st class.

 

[burgesst]

DOH! So I have been standing all these years in the rush hour when there were seats available in "first" ?!

How are we passengers meant to know these things? Couldn't the guard announce it when the train looks like its getting full?

 

[Tibbs]

DOH! So I have been standing all these years in the rush hour when there were seats available in "first" ?!

How are we passengers meant to know these things? Couldn't the guard announce it when the train looks like its getting full?

Southern has the same situation where it uses trains with first class on their 'Metro' routes which are all declassifed.

Sometimes the guard announces it (but not often) but they have it on the scrolling information screens that you can sit in first.

I don't see why SWT can't do the same.

 

[burgesst]

SWT actually stop the scrolling screens showing the next station and revert them to the clock between stations, so I'm not holding out much hope!

Still the less people know, the more chance I have of getting a seat!

 

[455driver]

DOH! So I have been standing all these years in the rush hour when there were seats available in "first" ?!

How are we passengers meant to know these things? Couldn't the guard announce it when the train looks like its getting full?

I always used to announce it and I know a few others that do, maybe you cant hear it above your ipod!

 

[burgesst]

I always used to announce it and I know a few others that do, maybe you cant hear it above your ipod!

Ha ha! I do occasionally use an ipod, but even then, always seem to hear the 'this is the train from... to... i'm in the middle if you need help' announcements!

I've been travelling that route almost 3 years and not heard a thing about 'first class'.

But I thank you on behalf of your former passengers for when you used to do it!

 

[Be3G]

I've certainly been on some SWT trains that do have an occasional scrolling message on board saying that first class is declassified (if I recall correctly the actual message is something like ‘all seats on this service are standard class’).

 

[tsr]

Southern has the same situation where it uses trains with first class on their 'Metro' routes which are all declassifed.

Sometimes the guard announces it (but not often) but they have it on the scrolling information screens that you can sit in first.

From personal experience, I'm afraid to say that this information is not necessarily automatically displayed, especially if it leaves London Bridge, for some reason (this may be random chance).

 

[yorkie]

How are we passengers meant to know these things?

By looking in the timetable (printed, or online, whatever you find easier. probably easier online, as you can see from that link it is very clear on OTT, "standard class seats only")

Couldn't the guard announce it when the train looks like its getting full?

They can, though the people "in the know" would generally rather it wasn't announced.

 

[burgesst]

However, if you look at this http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/pocket01dec12.pdf timetable, there is not a mention of class, its even been removed from the symbol key.

So my assumption on seeing a first class carriage would be that there is a first class service where I am not allowed.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I also used to work those trains, the unit goes back to Waterloo and makes the 2015 to Haslemere. It was always standing room only until Strawberry Hill or Fulwell but I would usually announce that first was declassified.

 

[bicbasher]

Southern Metro services with declassified 1st class carriages mention the fact on the station CIS and also on the train CIS.

 

[burgesst]

I contacted SWT customer services to confirm all this, and have just had a reply...

The guard on the train will be able to sell you an upgrade to
first class.

Is this just a case of badly informed customer service ?

 

[Urban Gateline]

I contacted SWT customer services to confirm all this, and have just had a reply...

The guard on the train will be able to sell you an upgrade to
first class.

Is this just a case of badly informed customer service ?

Pretty much yes, as First Class is declassified on that route and I believe First Class fares don't even exist for it either! Also you'd be very unlucky to encounter a Commercial Guard (ticket selling) on a Suburban SWT working!

 

[jb]

Are the 450s running to Windsor still permanently declassified (and usually unannounced as such)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are the 450s running to Windsor still permanently declassified (and usually unannounced as such)?

The HC 450s don't need to be permanently declassified, they had their first class area removed...

 

[455driver]

The HC 450s don't need to be permanently declassified, they had their first class area removed...

But will have it re-instated when they are put on Readings as the 458/5 conversions become available.

reply to JB, surely you would be moaning if the guard announced something on the lines of-

"will passengers please note that they can occupy the non existent first class section with standard class tickets, all seats on this service are standard class"!

 

[swt_passenger]

I noticed a couple of services to/from Basingstoke on the timetable posters at Eastleigh are now showing as STD only (in red) - and a quick check suggests they are peak extras run by single 158s or 159s. (0805 ex Ports Hbr, 1624 ex Basingstoke)

Are they running them de-classified because they are too busy for a two car train? I'm not aware of any changes to the units themselves...

 

[yorkie]

I contacted SWT customer services to confirm all this, and have just had a reply...

The guard on the train will be able to sell you an upgrade to
first class.

Is this just a case of badly informed customer service ?

I know someone who worked at EC Customer Services, and I know people currently working for Customer Services at other TOCs.... let's just say that, if I ask Customer Services a question, I almost expect it to be wrong. This is mainly due to appallingly inadequate training given by most TOCs.

Yes, it is wrong, and no, I am not surprised at all.

I have little or no faith in the industry to give out correct and appropriate information on anything but the most basic of matters.

Some Customer Services departments are much better than others, though, but SWT are pretty bad!

 

[burgesst]

I spoke to a revenue protection officer about this the other day, and he confirmed that certain journeys are declassified. So as not to get caught out, I emailed customer services for a list of these services. This was their reply:

The deregulation you refer to is done on an ad hoc basis depending on the
loadings of any
service in transit . No service is deregulated before it starts its journey
and it would be the
guard of each individual service who would decide and then announce the
easing of
seating restrictions.

which would seem to contradict that and the opinions expresses here!

 

[455driver]

They are assuming that the services have 1st class, the Richmond to Shepperton trains do not have 1st class and when a unit with 1st class works them then 1st class is automatically declassified from the start.

I wouldnt go by what some office based bod says!

 

[burgesst]

You wouldn't happen to know about the morning services from Twickenham to Richmond? I'm assuming that as these have a variety of origins, there's going to be a mix ?

 

[Muzer]

They are assuming that the services have 1st class, the Richmond to Shepperton trains do not have 1st class and when a unit with 1st class works them then 1st class is automatically declassified from the start.

What is your source for this? I understand most guards would allow it, but I wouldn't want to be caught out by an unfriendly one - the National Rail Conditions of Carriage no longer make reference to this rule as of the 2012 change, and I can't find any other official documentation that states this is allowed.

 

[Smethwickian]

From the National Rail Timetable (notes and symbols page):

"Accommodation: All services shown in this Timetable convey Standard Accommodation only unless otherwise shown."

Therefore, if the timetable does not specifically show 1st class for that particular journey, there is NO first class, regardless of what colour the seats are or what is painted on the carriage.

Does that answer BurgessT's query about missing timetable symbols? And Muzer's search for an official source defining declassifcation? Does it really need to be any more complicated?

 

[Muzer]

Could it be "otherwise shown" by the "First class" stickers on the doors to the carriage?

 

[455driver]

You wouldn't happen to know about the morning services from Twickenham to Richmond? I'm assuming that as these have a variety of origins, there's going to be a mix ?

There is a mix and its only the ones shown it the timetable to be without 1st class that are declassified, the Readings all have live 1st class on them.

Muzer, my source is working these trains as a guard up to a few years ago, the 450s booked on the job all had 1st class (before the 450/5s) and we were told we could annouce it as declassified if we wished (I alway did), not sure on it today because I dont get involved in them now.