First class rear on Thameslink allways declassified.

[AdamWW]

It does, but it is simply not clear enough - a simple sticker on the windows would solve the problem.

I agree and have already said that.

This was a response to a post on whether it's still declassified on non Thameslink services.

No matter whether they're supposed to be declassified or not on GN services, if the PIS is saying it's declassified then it clearly is.

 

[bramling]

These days I regrettably do not go out on the trains much - I miss my status pass riding around especially on Tuesdays - but though peak 1st class patronage was light on Thameslink - always subject to those getting full penalties when the RPI's did a check - off peak genuine 1st was effectively nil. I can only assume it was / is there due to ORCATS sharing with other TOC's as was. It really needs to go in this day and age.

It’s difficult to tell as I have the impression that there are always a proportion of people in first without the appropriate ticket, and also in some cases railway staff on various forms of passes.

However comparing with pre-2018, on the GN side it’s fairly light for sure, but I think there is some level of demand from the Fen Line side - Cambridge in particular and perhaps north of there. Goodness knows why, as on the 387s it is absolutely identical to standard bar the moquette and antimacassar, whilst on the 700s it is an improvement for sure but you can get this benefit just by sitting at the other end of the train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2026 ==

I agree and have already said that.

This was a response to a post on whether it's still declassified on non Thameslink services.

No matter whether they're supposed to be declassified or not on GN services, if the PIS is saying it's declassified then it clearly is.

When the 700s first arrived on GN IIRC initially it only applied to actual TL services, but the policy was very quickly clarified to include GN services because of the confusion caused. So it applies on *any* service worked by a class 700.

Where there was still some scope for discussion was TL-branded services worked by something else, as was the case on the Cambridge stopping service, though these have now been changed in the timetable to be GN not TL. One could have made a reasonable argument that you could use the rearmost first on a 387 service, as it counts as “rear first class on a Thameslink service.”

 

[TUC]

The level of inconsistency and risk this introduces to provide 4% more standard class seating is really daft, to be honest.

It’s annoying, but in what way is it a risk?

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s annoying, but in what way is it a risk?

The risks of passengers getting it wrong and the reputational risk of penalty faring those people or prosecuting them. It also places staff at risk of assault by introducing a needless point of confrontation. The railway tries to design out that risk by reducing the potential for conflict, it is quite a strong driver of change - certainly more so than "customers will hate you if you do this to them".

 

[duffield]

Been like it for a decade since the trains were introduced.

Note that is always the rear of the train in direction of travel. Mrs BR still can‘t get her head round that the rear of the train to Brighton is not the same as the rear of the train leaving Brighton!

While this is normally straightforward, I'd like to know what happens during engineering works when services to/from Brighton are diverted via Lewes, where they reverse, and in theory the 1st class and declassified compartments swap round! I wonder what the PIS says? And whether the RPIs have special instructions not enforce 1st class at all on such days?

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s difficult to tell as I have the impression that there are always a proportion of people in first without the appropriate ticket, and also in some cases railway staff on various forms of passes.

On the MML side, I’d hazard a guess that the proortion of those in first class either without an appropriate ticket or staff pass is approximately 100%.

 

[flitwickbeds]

While this is normally straightforward, I'd like to know what happens during engineering works when services to/from Brighton are diverted via Lewes, where they reverse, and in theory the 1st class and declassified compartments swap round! I wonder what the PIS says? And whether the RPIs have special instructions not enforce 1st class at all on such days?

Surely the system is simply "whichever driver end is driving, show declassified on the other end"?

 

[Bald Rick]

While this is normally straightforward, I'd like to know what happens during engineering works when services to/from Brighton are diverted via Lewes, where they reverse, and in theory the 1st class and declassified compartments swap round! I wonder what the PIS says? And whether the RPIs have special instructions not enforce 1st class at all on such days?

That I don’t know.

But, at a guess, most of said engineering works will be on a Sunday. I’ll leave you to work out the rest!

 

[flitwickbeds]

Ahh sorry I see what you mean now - they swap ends mid journey.

 

[AdamWW]

Surely the system is simply "whichever driver end is driving, show declassified on the other end"?

Not terribly convenient for anyone in the end that was declassified when they got on and suddenly isn't, I'd have thought.

 

[bramling]

On the MML side, I’d hazard a guess that the proortion of those in first class either without an appropriate ticket or staff pass is approximately 100%.

Interesting… glad I’m not the only one with similar thoughts.

I presume on the Midland side it doesn’t help that the Rainham Orpington and Sutton services are fully declassified, so a lot of people will be used to just sitting in there anyway.

I don’t think it’s quite that far on the GN side, with the exception perhaps of the Cambridge stopping services. First seems to fill at Hatfield and Stevenage in particular, which are the places you’d outwardly least expect there to be a wealth of first-class ticket holders, and I don’t think it’s railway staff either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2026 ==

The risks of passengers getting it wrong and the reputational risk of penalty faring those people or prosecuting them. It also places staff at risk of assault by introducing a needless point of confrontation. The railway tries to design out that risk by reducing the potential for conflict, it is quite a strong driver of change - certainly more so than "customers will hate you if you do this to them".

… as against exactly the same “risks” arising from crowded 8-car trains.

A reminder that the reason we ended up here is because 8/700 formations replaced 8/317 8/319 8/321 or 8/365 formations, where there was a significant loss of seating capacity already, further compounded by the 700/0s having excess space devoted to first class compared to all these 8-car formations. This was especially true during the transition period when 700/0s were appearing on existing timetables, so no overall capacity increase - though there’s still routes where overall capacity hasn’t really uplifted at certain times.

There’s certainly a case to be had for getting rid of first altogether, indeed it largely exists on the 700/0s only to allow them to drop onto 700/1 services where required. This is all a separate discussion to be had. In an ideal world we would get rid of first and refurbish the whole train to a similar interior as first as that’s arguably how the trains should have been designed in the first place, but again that’s a separate discussion.

 

[MrJeeves]

While this is normally straightforward, I'd like to know what happens during engineering works when services to/from Brighton are diverted via Lewes, where they reverse, and in theory the 1st class and declassified compartments swap round! I wonder what the PIS says? And whether the RPIs have special instructions not enforce 1st class at all on such days?

Thameslink trains do not divert via Lewes.

 

[Hadders]

The rear 1st class compartment in the class 700 trains has been permanently declassified since they came into service and there's a history lesson in why this is the case.

The 8-car class 700s had fewer standard class seats than the 8-car class 365s they replaced (fewer seats so more people could stand!)
But they had more 1st class seats! So the solution, to save bad publicity, was to declassify the rear 1st class compartment.

12-car 700s were not really an issue because there weren't many 12-car trains pre-class 700 introduction (12 car services only really operated in the peaks) but it was simpler to declassify the rear compartment on all class 700 trains.

The declassification is posted on a rotating basis on the internal screens inside the declassified compartment. Is it perfect, no. But it's good enough. I rarely seek out declassified 1st, the only exception is if I'm doing something like Stevenage to Brighton. In my experience it's more chav class than 1st class.

 

[Bald Rick]

I presume on the Midland side it doesn’t help that the Rainham Orpington and Sutton services are fully declassified, so a lot of people will be used to just sitting in there anyway.

in my opinion, it’s rare that anyone sitting in ‘proper’ first is unaware that it is first. At least in peak time.

 

[Royston Vasey]

A reminder that the reason we ended up here is because 8/700 formations replaced 8/317 8/319 8/321 or 8/365 formations, where there was a significant loss of seating capacity already, further compounded by the 700/0s having excess space devoted to first class compared to all these 8-car formations. This was especially true during the transition period when 700/0s were appearing on existing timetables, so no overall capacity increase - though there’s still routes where overall capacity hasn’t really uplifted at certain times

I'm not sure that's entirely true though because of what the Thameslink-related changes, platform extensions, fixed formations and timetables made possible for the service.

Ignoring the fact that the timetable was a disaster, the introduction of Thameslink meant the twice an hour semi fast (RYS BDK LET HIT SVG FPK) went from mostly 8 car to always 12 car.

The Cruisers were unchanged 8 cars.

But the 700/0s coincided with the lengthening of Foxton P2 and Shepreth P2 and the end of 4 car service on GN. For a brief while in 2018, we went from 1x4 car per hour to 2x8 car per hour! That meant 8 cars not only for us villagers but also for passengers between Knebworth and Potters Bar as opposed to 4 before. We did previously have some 8 cars in the peaks out of London that split at Royston.

After a few years of 700s we got mostly Electrostars back, but as I see it, 8x700s directly replaced 4x365s/317s for a lot of passengers, and 12x700s replaced 8x365s.

It was a shame our half hourly service never really stuck, other than in the peaks, and they extras have now got daft calling patterns (I am sure operationally sensible with the East Coast recast, but terrible for connections other than Kings Cross, omitting both Stevenage and Finsbury Park).

 

[JB_B]

While this is normally straightforward, I'd like to know what happens during engineering works when services to/from Brighton are diverted via Lewes, where they reverse, and in theory the 1st class and declassified compartments swap round! I wonder what the PIS says? And whether the RPIs have special instructions not enforce 1st class at all on such days?

When that's happened to me ( (an unplanned diversion via Lewes ) the PIS didn't update and continued to show the d-class message in the loop on the screens in what was now the front of the train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2026 ==

Thameslink trains do not divert via Lewes.

They certainly have done so in the recent-ish past during disruption. Maybe only a limited subset of TL drivers sign the route, though.

 

[WeGoAgain]

While this is normally straightforward, I'd like to know what happens during engineering works when services to/from Brighton are diverted via Lewes, where they reverse, and in theory the 1st class and declassified compartments swap round! I wonder what the PIS says? And whether the RPIs have special instructions not enforce 1st class at all on such days?

They may well have special arrangements for times of Engineering works so that both Front and Rear 1st Class are declassified. - I'm not familiar with the reversing operation at Lewes, but it should be that the opposite end from where the driver is driving from is declassified 1st.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2026 ==

It does, but it is simply not clear enough - a simple sticker on the windows would solve the problem.

That would mean a lot of unpeeling and resticking. Every time the Train is driven from the opposite end.

 

[jon0844]

This has been discussed many times over the last ten years, but I don't see a need to hugely advertise the service as you don't want everyone packing in to one part of one coach. The PIS says it's declassified and over time more and more people find out, but it's really not a problem if the average person doesn't know. If they have a standard class ticket, they'll stay in standard (you'd expect) and be blissfully unaware until someone tells them, or maybe they read the 'hack' on TikTok or a forum like this.

There wouldn't be a single passenger host that doesn't know the rear is declassified, and they should all know the services where first doesn't operate at all (e.g. Sutton, Sevenoaks etc).

It gets a little more complicated on the 387s and 379s, with the latter not always showing first correctly on the platform screens (it may only show on coach 8 of an 8-car for trains going north, for example), and many 387 compartments not really having sufficient signage or the antimacassars are missing (removed). Having spoken to onboard staff, it appears they use discretion based on the unit and there are discussions ongoing relating to enforcement of the 379 first class sections when in 8 or 12 car formations.

I certainly would not recommend anyone sit in any first class section on a 387 or 379 based on what I've said, but I do think there are many occasions where it won't be policed and it may well be that 379s get some sort of similar declassification - although as they're not at each end of the train (they'll be coach 4 and 8 or 1 and 5 depending on direction) it could be harder to advertise.

 

[buz33]

(they'll be coach 4 and 8 or 1 and 4 depending on direction)

I think that should be 4 and 8 or 1 and 5.

 

[jon0844]

I think that should be 4 and 8 or 1 and 5.

Yes.

 

[Warrior2852]

They may well have special arrangements for times of Engineering works so that both Front and Rear 1st Class are declassified. - I'm not familiar with the reversing operation at Lewes, but it should be that the opposite end from where the driver is driving from is declassified 1st.

I imagine there has to be some arrangement for when trains reverse on a single journey, you can't tell people who could easily have been sitting in declassified first class for over an hour that they now have to walk to the opposite end of a 12 coach train just for the last little bit of the journey.

 

[JonathanH]

I imagine there has to be some arrangement for when trains reverse on a single journey, you can't tell people who could easily have been sitting in declassified first class for over an hour that they now have to walk to the opposite end of a 12 coach train just for the last little bit of the journey.

There is nowhere that it happens as part of a single journey on the Thameslink network.

 

[MrJeeves]

They certainly have done so in the recent-ish past during disruption. Maybe only a limited subset of TL drivers sign the route, though.

I've only seen Southern divert, and not Thameslink. I wonder if only older drivers have kept the route knowledge that was offered in the past, and it's not something newer drivers are trained on today.

 

[SECR 65]

I've only seen Southern divert, and not Thameslink. I wonder if only older drivers have kept the route knowledge that was offered in the past, and it's not something newer drivers are trained on today.

How do GTR traincrew work? Is SN and GX mixed? I've seen an OBS on Southern in GX uniform? Then is TL south side seperate, and TL north side combined with GN? Do Brighton or Three Bridges TL crew sign Bedford for example?

 

[Warrior2852]

There is nowhere that it happens as part of a single journey on the Thameslink network.

The conversation we were having was regarding occasional diverts via Lewes to Brighton during engineering works where a reversal would need to happen.

 

[JonathanH]

The conversation we were having was regarding occasional diverts via Lewes to Brighton during engineering works where a reversal would need to happen.

Yes, but the conversation indicates that neither diversions via Hove, nor via Lewes, are actually scheduled during such work. I agree that they would have to happen if they were scheduled

There are some videos on video sites of 700s doing empty stock reversals at Lewes, but don't seem to be any of it happening in service.

I don't think the 0228 arrival / 0412 departure at Brighton even goes via Lewes, relative to terminating at Three Bridges / Haywards Heath for a bus, these days.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Thameslink don't sign via Lewes anymore. I suppose you might get a finishing Brighton driver signing it during disruption, thought

 

[Bald Rick]

How do GTR traincrew work? Is SN and GX mixed? I've seen an OBS on Southern in GX uniform? Then is TL south side seperate, and TL north side combined with GN? Do Brighton or Three Bridges TL crew sign Bedford for example?

In simple terms, SN/GX are one group of crew, and TL/GN another group.

Each crew depot is in one camp or the other, but not both. Hence there are two Brighton depots, one TL, one SN. Same at Horsham & Three Bridges.

Southern drivers do not sign 700s. TL drivers do not sign 377s (although they may have in the past). Most GN drivers sign 700s plus something else (at least one of 717s, 379s, and 387s). Kings Lynn do not sign 700s.

 

[SECR 65]

In simple terms, SN/GX are one group of crew, and TL/GN another group.

Each crew depot is in one camp or the other, but not both. Hence there are two Brighton depots, one TL, one SN. Same at Horsham & Three Bridges.

Southern drivers do not sign 700s. TL drivers do not sign 377s (although they may have in the past). Most GN drivers sign 700s plus something else (at least one of 717s, 379s, and 387s). Kings Lynn do not sign 700s.

Thanks

 

[Dave W]

Noting that the secret is out, it's still quite a recent change that people use it. The carriage end behind the cab is the obvious best place. Especially the single seat.

A few years ago the declassified firsts on the Sutton Loop were evidently clocked as a quiet place for county lines runners to sit for quite some time. On several weekend occasions I shared first with 5 or 6 identically dressed youngsters all dutifully sitting apart and getting off one at a time from one station to the next. To see it once was eyebrow raising, by the 4th or 5th time the pattern was almost obvious.