First class rear on Thameslink allways declassified.

[josh-j]

Why don't they just permanently declassify one end with obvious signs or stickers? Is it so that people who want real 1st can always go to the same end of the train? It seems like a lot of complexity has been created here just for that.

 

[JamieL]

Why don't they just permanently declassify one end with obvious signs or stickers? Is it so that people who want real 1st can always go to the same end of the train? It seems like a lot of complexity has been created here just for that.

I agree with this and I believe it sort of exemplifies the railway's inconsistent approach to First Class. Either you do First Class properly - different seating, table space and use/misuse of the compartment(s) actively enforced - or you permanently eliminate First Class on certain routes and don't take the extra revenue. The long distance operators such as Avanti, LNER and CS do First Class well and are exemplars for other operators.

This said, the railway is plagued with grifters. I was in an Avanti London to Glasgow train the other day and someone embarked into one of the First Class carriages at Euston, stole a bottle of water from the fridge and sat in one of the seats. When the ticket inspector came round he pleaded innocence saying "he didn't know it was First" but delayed leaving hoping the inspector would move on. Unfortunately for the grifter, there was a second staff member who stood next to him until he moved on. Unless you have such enforcement in First Class compartments, which is only really possible on long-distance trains, then companies shouldn't really offer a First Class offering.

 

[Hadders]

Noting that the secret is out, it's still quite a recent change that people use it.

It's not really a recent thing. The 700s have been running on the GN side since 2017 and there's always been a reasonably healthy loading in the rear 1st class compartment. Personally, unless I'm going al the way to Brighton I can't be bothered with it, yes the seats are a bit better, there's a power socket and a few proper tables but that's it - you don't really need those things on a short distance hop to London. I'd rather travel in a seat where I can make a faster exit at my destination (for example, coach 5 at Stevenage)

Why don't they just permanently declassify one end with obvious signs or stickers? Is it so that people who want real 1st can always go to the same end of the train?

It's so that 1st is always at the front of the train. Otherwise it would cause too much confusion, especially if a unit had gone round the Sutton Loop.

It seems like a lot of complexity has been created here just for that.

Not really. The rear 1st class compartment is always declassified. To understand why one of the compartments is declassified read my earlier post in this thread (#43)

 

[weeklycommuter]

The rule should be and should always have been that all driver only operation trains (no second onboard staff) must be standard class only.

It clearly does not work to have a first class section on trains which are driver only operation.

All train services which operate with first class must have second onboard staff checking tickets and passengers on those trains, especially those using first class seats, must know that their ticket will be checked.

As Thameslink trains were always going to be driver only operation they should have been built with standard class only seating.

All Thameslink trains should be immediately and permanently made standard class only and all first class stickers should be removed. No point in spending money to replace the first class seating at each end, just leave it to be used by passengers holding standard class tickets.

 

[Haywain]

The rule should be and should always have been that all driver only operation trains (no second onboard staff) must be standard class only.

It clearly does not work to have a first class section on trains which are driver only operation.

Does that apply to those services that are DOO but always have a second member of staff on board, like Southern.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Does that apply to those services that are DOO but always have a second member of staff on board, like Southern.

Perhaps, rather than DOO, trains on routes where every train does not have a second member of staff rostered, should be the definition

 

[Surreytraveller]

First class has been an issue for decades, where trains with first class areas are used on services which do not have first class, and indeed first class fares do not even exist.
It just introduces another area for conflict between staff and those with anti-social tendancies, and also causes delays to trains where those conflicts arise.
It also causes confusion, where trains operate on the same routes, some with first class, some not, but wll have first class areas, with no easy way to tell which first class areas are first class, and those which aren't!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The current situation isn’t complex. The compartments are all clearly marked as First Class and should be treated as such unless the internal screens say the compartment is declassified.

The PIS in the active compartment says that the section is only for First Class ticket holders and the PIS in the declassified section says that standard class ticket holders can sit there. My only criticism is that the message should cycle around more often.

The only “complexity” is for people who think they’ve found a hack to sit in First Class for free but don’t quite understand the limitations of that hack. They get quite upset when they’re Penalty Fared or prosecuted.

I do have some sympathy with people who usually catch a standard-only service and forget/don’t realise that they’re not on a standard-only train. But the signs are clear enough and people generally would be better off not running on autopilot. I always check the PIS before I make myself comfortable in a declassified compartment.

That said, I think they should follow the lead of WMT/LNR, GWR, Chiltern, and GA and just get rid of First Class on these suburban and outer-suburban trains. Thameslink and Southern services don’t need First Class. Just get rid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2026 ==

Unless you have such enforcement in First Class compartments, which is only really possible on long-distance trains, then companies shouldn't really offer a First Class offering

Thameslink do have this enforcement, the prosecutions forum is full of people who’ve been issued a Penalty Fare for sitting in First Class. All of them complain about the “complexity” of it all, as though we should feel sorry for them.

The rule should be and should always have been that all driver only operation trains (no second onboard staff) must be standard class only.

How does the method of door operation affect whether a train should have First Class?

GWR operate IETs in DOO mode and have First Class.

 

[Hadders]

That said, I think they should follow the lead of WMT/LNR, GWR, Chiltern, and GA and just get rid of First Class on these suburban and outer-suburban trains. Thameslink and Southern services don’t need First Class. Just get rid.

If you’re doing a long distance journey in 1st class, like Stevenage to Manchester then arguably there should be 1st class for the leg between Stevenage and London, if only for the guarantee of a seat.

 

[Haywain]

Thameslink do have this enforcement, the prosecutions forum is full of people who’ve been issued a Penalty Fare for sitting in First Class. All of them complain about the “complexity” of it all, as though we should feel sorry for them.

And all followed by the same discussion as in this thread.

 

[JonathanH]

Why don't they just permanently declassify one end with obvious signs or stickers?

Even the 12 car trains aren't all the same way round, and they don't routinely go around the Sutton loop.

 

[Bishopstone]

If first class still exists on Thameslink when the 700s become due for mid-life refresh, they should move it to one section in the middle of the train. But only after the rest of us have been provided with seat-back tables, sockets and WiFi.

 

[JonathanH]

If first class still exists on Thameslink when the 700s become due for mid-life refresh, they should move it to one section in the middle of the train. But only after the rest of us have been provided with seat-back tables, sockets and WiFi.

Why? Putting it in the middle means passengers will have to walk through it to get from one part of the train to another which is clearly not desirable. It should really be reduced to just the space between the last door and the cab, like on a class 360 or 450, with standard class seats fitted in the rest of the area.

 

[weeklycommuter]

How does the method of door operation affect whether a train should have First Class?

Driver only operation meaning no second onboard staff. I added this in brackets as the term has acquired more than one meaning. The issue is the absence of second onboard staff checking tickets. Passengers must have certainty that the train will have second onboard staff and those second onboard staff will check tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

Driver only operation means no second onboard staff.

No it doesn't. Lumo are DOO and have multiple onboard staff.

 

[weeklycommuter]

No it doesn't. Lumo are DOO and have multiple onboard staff.

I wish the railway industry would refer to this as driver controlled operation as the term driver only operation has become ambiguous.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wish the railway industry would refer to this as driver controlled operation as the term driver only operation has become ambiguous.

I agree it's unclear. Both terms are used interchangeably especially by unions. Even the ORR describe Lumo as DOO.

 

[saismee]

I agree it's unclear. Both terms are used interchangeably especially by unions. Even the ORR describe Lumo as DOO.

I think that DOO refers to operation.

 

[frediculous]

I tend to avoid the declassified first class section on Thameslink because I feel the seats are dirtier than those in standard class. Oh for the days of Covid when the trains were actually cleaned properly

 

[Mag_seven]

OK folks I think we are done here as we are now drifting way off topic and the fact that the First class at the rear on Thameslink (Class 700) is always declassified is now well known.

As ever if anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread elsewhere.

thanks all