First class on trains with no first class timetabled

[BW]

I've seen a lot of references on here to sitting in first class with a standard class ticket, when the train is timetabled to be standard class only (ie. the timetable shows no first class for the service).

Is there a definitive reference for this being permitted? I've realised that one of my trains is standard class only on the timetable, but sometimes has first class seating.

Is there something I could wave at an RPI if it ever came to it?

 

[ainsworth74]

Just wave the timetable in their face, if the service is not down as having first class but the train is equipped with first class it is considered to be declassified. Just make sure you're reading the timetable right

 

[jon0844]

A timetable should be fine and they should carry one if you don't. Don't let them pretend you're on a different service though! If revenue board part way through a service, they often seem unsure what train they're on and just pick one from the timetable.

Another tip: Make sure their timetable is up to date in case it was different before, as a FCC RPO tried yesterday by consulting the December-May timetable!

 

[RPI]

Why have such a crap system where First class applies on some services but not others? Thankfully the TOC I work for doesn't have anything like this except on foootball specials and the like, but to have some trains on the same route like that is a joke!

 

[cuccir]

Why have such a crap system where First class applies on some services but not others? Thankfully the TOC I work for doesn't have anything like this except on foootball specials and the like, but to have some trains on the same route like that is a joke!

It doesn't seem too bad, I guess it just allows for more flexible use of stock? If you don't have the stock to commit to running a first class service on a route then you can't offer it, but there's no harm in using trains with a first class bit if they're kicking around....

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Here in Epsom where 377s are used on a lot of Victoria - Epsom / Dorking / Horsham services the platform screens specifically state that the first class is available to all.

A lot of hassle would be saved if other TOCs did the same where a declassified first is in the service in question.

 

[RPI]

It doesn't seem too bad, I guess it just allows for more flexible use of stock? If you don't have the stock to commit to running a first class service on a route then you can't offer it, but there's no harm in using trains with a first class bit if they're kicking around....

Dont all FCC's units have First class in them though? (I know the first class in the 377's is identical to the standard seating!)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Dont all FCC's units have First class in them though? (I know the first class in the 377's is identical to the standard seating!)

No, the 319/3s don't do they? Or the 313s?

 

[Wolfie]

Dont all FCC's units have First class in them though? (I know the first class in the 377's is identical to the standard seating!)

Not all of the 319s for a start.....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

what train compernee is it

TOC?

FCC came up yesterday, I assume Southern may also do this too...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

FCC GN / TL routes and Southern around Epsom at a guess...

 

[SWT_USER]

SWT on a few Hounslow/ Windsor/ Weybridge services have declassified first class, not that the guards ever bother telling people when the train is full elsewhere.

 

[jon0844]

FCC staff will sometimes say if a train is short formed, but on a normal service they won't. Consider it a bonus, and once you've found out by looking you now have a nice free upgrade. Suddenly, there's little incentive or desire to get staff to tell others!!

If I travel on a train where I've not looked, more fool me and well done to those who did!

 

[Matt Taylor]

SWT on a few Hounslow/ Windsor/ Weybridge services have declassified first class, not that the guards ever bother telling people when the train is full elsewhere.

With respect, if the train is that full then the guard should be working from the cab and thus cannot see whether the FC section is full or not.

 

[N Levers]

Not wanting to start a new thread...

Is this also true with the 171's Southern run along the East Coastway. The timetable has the 377's with 1st but not the 171's.

 

[Mike395]

Not wanting to start a new thread...

Is this also true with the 171's Southern run along the East Coastway. The timetable has the 377's with 1st but not the 171's.

Not sure the Southern 171s have a FC section - dont remember seeing one anyway

Edit: Nevermind, Wikipedia tells me im wrong :P In which case, yes the same will apply

 

[466.networkers]

When the Sheerness Line had 465931 running on the line for testing purposes after being in storage OOU for over a year, the FC sections were declassified ... not many people cottoned on to this fact ... Nice having a quiet journey to work with just the Networker motors and not the usual rabble!

 

[Lampshade]

With respect, if the train is that full then the guard should be working from the cab and thus cannot see whether the FC section is full or not.

On 450/0s the Guard has a compartment right next to first class

 

[12CSVT]

Conversely there have been many occasions (both under FCC and Thameslink) when 319/3s (which have no first class) have been used on Brighton services which are advertised as having first class.

 

[lev441]

Conversely there have been many occasions (both under FCC and Thameslink) when 319/3s (which have no first class) have been used on Brighton services which are advertised as having first class.

I have thought that when no first class is in the timetable, it is declassified, but on FCC I was told by a RPI that this was not the case.. was he talking out his behind? Ever since then I stopped doing it...

 

[MikeWh]

... was he talking out his behind?

Yes.

If the timetable does not show first class accomodation being provided then standard class tickets are valid everywhere on that train.

 

[jon0844]

My goodness, it seems FCC are on top form as ever.

I did have a FCC driver tell me on here that he wasn't sure, but as a driver he doesn't need to know. But revenue officers really do need to know the rules.

One day I hope to meet a FCC RPI that knows the rules and regulations. After I win the Lottery a few times, perhaps in consecutive draws, maybe this could potentially happen!

 

[TEW]

A lot of hassle would be saved if other TOCs did the same where a declassified first is in the service in question.

On the services where FGW use a SWT 158 there is a note on the screens to say that First Class is declassified. The First Class section is usually full of regulars who know that it's declassified anyway though.

 

[scotsman]

It's taken a while, but pax in the southern half of Fife are finally realising that 1st is declasified on Fife Circle services - an absolute joy when it's an ex-Hull Trains 170/3

Ironically enough, a few late night services are from Aberdeen and convey First Class but the Conductors rarely leave the rear cab in the central belt after 9pm

 

[Firestarter]

I have thought that when no first class is in the timetable, it is declassified, but on FCC I was told by a RPI that this was not the case.. was he talking out his behind? Ever since then I stopped doing it...

Not necessarily, I've been told if first class is not in the timetable and not advertised on the CIS then it is declassified, one or the other then it has first class. :mad::mad:

 

[jon0844]

I am fairly sure the timetable counts above all else. Otherwise they'd argue that if first class still has first class stickers and antimacassars then it's still first class.

 

[hughesfowler]

Or there is the other way round, customer travelling Sheffield to Manchester today, buys a first class ticket and the inadvertantly boards the east midlands service. Guard told him ticket not valid as no fc on his train and sold him standard day single.

 

[Mike395]

Or there is the other way round, customer travelling Sheffield to Manchester today, buys a first class ticket and the inadvertantly boards the east midlands service. Guard told him ticket not valid as no fc on his train and sold him standard day single.

That's not right, surely?! FC should always be valid in Standard!

 

[hughesfowler]

mike my thoughts entitrely, but it happened, was amazed to see what had happened.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm also 99% positive that's wrong, in fact I thought you were entitled to a refund down to the value of a standard class ticket if you had a first class ticket on a train with no first class!