First class obsolete?

[Mutant Lemming]

Even former communist countries such as Russia and China offer a choice of accommodation on their trains.

...has the Communist Party of China (the best according to Father Ted) been told ?

First Class should be abolished - just keep the same carriages and rename it Third Class while Standard should be abolished keeping the same carriages for the rebranded Cattle Class.

 

[Polarbear]

...has the Communist Party of China (the best according to Father Ted) been told ?

First Class should be abolished - just keep the same carriages and rename it Third Class while Standard should be abolished keeping the same carriages for the rebranded Cattle Class.

That would be an ecumenical matter...

By bad - oops!

 

[Hellfire]

I completely 100% support getting rid of First Class. I would love to see First Class get completely abolished throughout the UK. On most trains nowadays it is 100% identical (or at least very similar) to Standard Class. I find it disgraceful that certain Govia TOCs charge First Class fares on the 375 / 377 / 387 trains when they are exactly 100% identical to Standard Class with no additional benefits. On many trains it is very easy to sit in First Class without realising it nowadays as it is so similar to Standard Class and very poorly marked.

Getting rid of First Class would free up more space for Standard Class ticket holders on busy routes. It is always annoying to be on a busy full and standing train when First Class is completely empty (which is something i see almost every day).

Even on long distance trains there is no need for First Class. These trains are already busy enough and not long enough so the whole train should really just be used for Standard Class accommodation.

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

There are already many lines (both short distance and long distance) throughout the UK without First Class which works very well so i really think it is time to extend this to all other trains throughout the UK.

What a narrow minded view.

 

[route:oxford]

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

Stop focussing on what choices other people make and how they spend their money!

Spend the money you earn the way you want.

 

[Mark62]

I travel first class for comfort and service.
A major reason for me travelling first class is because second class seats are so small nowadays. I am 6ft 4 ins and I would find it extremely uncomfortable to travel second class for any distance.
I either travel first class by East Coast or XC. The former provides a superb service and in the latter, first class is an absolute necessity because the seats on voyager second class are criminally low on leg room.
It's rare on east coast to be sat with four at a table, but even with four at a table the mark 4 seats are so capacious that it's not uncomfortable at all.
I've found that first class on XC is always lightly loaded or even empty becomes the refuse to sell off their seats. Prices tend to be appalling.
Given that new trains seats are getting smaller and smaller as TOCS aim to cram as many people as possibly into carriages. And as train lengths are getting illogically shorter even though more are travelling the pressure is on to make seats as uncomfortable as possible and pack people in like the proverbial sardine.
We need first class if only to avoid a visit to the chiropractor

 

[IKB]

I completely 100% support getting rid of First Class. I would love to see First Class get completely abolished throughout the UK. On most trains nowadays it is 100% identical (or at least very similar) to Standard Class. I find it disgraceful that certain Govia TOCs charge First Class fares on the 375 / 377 / 387 trains when they are exactly 100% identical to Standard Class with no additional benefits. On many trains it is very easy to sit in First Class without realising it nowadays as it is so similar to Standard Class and very poorly marked.

Getting rid of First Class would free up more space for Standard Class ticket holders on busy routes. It is always annoying to be on a busy full and standing train when First Class is completely empty (which is something i see almost every day).

Even on long distance trains there is no need for First Class. These trains are already busy enough and not long enough so the whole train should really just be used for Standard Class accommodation.

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

There are already many lines (both short distance and long distance) throughout the UK without First Class which works very well so i really think it is time to extend this to all other trains throughout the UK.

Couldn't disagree more.

Don't equate the first class provision on a GTR 377 with the rest of the UK. The first class sections are very small in any case, and are full in the peaks.

If Im travelling to Scotland on Virgin, for example, I want the option to pay extra for a larger seat, a table for two, at seat refreshments, and have a better chance of not sitting next to Waynettas screaming kids.

Just because you don't want to pay extra doesn't mean that others aren't prepared to.

 

[HH]

What a narrow minded view.

swt class 450 seems to be a troll. I'd advise simply ignoring his posts, because all he wants is your outrage; he's not actually interested in rail at all.

 

[KN1]

Stop focussing on what choices other people make and how they spend their money!

Spend the money you earn the way you want.

I use both, surely it's up to me.

 

[Essexman]

I travel first class when I can for the extra space, comfort & quiet. It makes a big difference to the enjoyment of my journey and profitable use of my time.
I rarely pay full first class fares (only for example London Midland which is still reasonably cheap) but use advances and weekend first whenever I can.
I do a lot of writing and checking of my books while travelling by train and often find the first class environment more conducive to this.
For example, tomorrow I’m traveling from Liverpool Street (9.00) to Norwich and back on the 18.00 (after visiting Berney Arms). With advance tickets first class was £36.50 which although standard was about £25 seems a reasonable price and differential for the benefits of first class – particularly on the return which is likely to be very busy in standard as far as Ipswich.

A friend’s father used to travel first class when commuting into Fenchurch Street (it was still offered then) because he had health issues and needed a seat.

My view is that there should be provision of first class, roughly as it is now.

 

[3141]

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

For the same sorts of reason that people pay more for better-quality clothes, or food, or seats in a cinema, or a mobile phone.

Anyway, I've just come back from a weekend in Manchester, and the advance second class single fare was £35, but the advance first class single was only £34.50.

 

[Hellfire]

It's all about choice isn't it? I do understand why First might not be such a great benefit on some commuter routes, particularly when the offer differs little from Standard. But, on long distance TOCs like VTWC, First makes the journey much more comfortable and, as long as there is demand, it should be provided.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's all about choice isn't it? I do understand why First might not be such a great benefit on some commuter routes, particularly when the offer differs little from Standard. But, on long distance TOCs like VTWC, First makes the journey much more comfortable and, as long as there is demand, it should be provided.

Well said. The problem appears to be on this thread that certain people who espouse the proletariat ideal would have us all travelling in one single class, be it on rail, plane or, dare I say it, cruise liner.

Let us be thankful that the "Momentum" ideal, only mentioned yesterday by a senior member of the Labour Party, is still only a threat and not an actuality...

 

[HH]

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...

 

[Deepgreen]

swt class 450 seems to be a troll. I'd advise simply ignoring his posts, because all he wants is your outrage; he's not actually interested in rail at all.

I'm not so sure - let's not be so quick to judge. A discussion forum means just that; not only the popular views.

On the topic - I bemoan the huge disparity in; a)the quality of first class, and; b)the prevalent lack of enforcement.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well said. The problem appears to be on this thread that certain people who espouse the proletariat ideal would have us all travelling in one single class, be it on rail, plane or, dare I say it, cruise liner.

Let us be thankful that the "Momentum" ideal, only mentioned yesterday by a senior member of the Labour Party, is still only a threat and not an actuality...

I think there is a world of difference between rail, air and cruise liner, with the latter, by definition, being a leisure environment. It would be good to avoid such wild, politically-biased comparisons.

 

[Hellfire]

I think there is a world of difference between rail, air and cruise liner, with the latter, by definition, being a leisure environment. It would be good to avoid such wild, politically-biased comparisons.

There is an old saying that a conservative is someone who wants everyone to have the opportunity to travel First Class while a socialist wants everyone to travel in Standard.

 

[cuccir]

One good reason for first class on a lot of long distance services is the way that we use our long distance trains to double up as local or regional services.

As a commuter on a 15-20 minute EMCL journey, I'm glad that first class on East Coast or XC takes up the people who want to be working, who have loads of luggage, etc - it makes my 15 minute journey a bit more comfortable than if I had to sit around them. I see the school kids who commute to work, the people who've been out shopping for the day: as short-distance travellers, we have different wants and needs to someone who is from Dundee to London, or wherever.

I agree that first class could be scrapped on many smaller trains though. TPE's 185s, which are under-capacity as a whole, have a very odd first class section that really could be used to offer more seats.

 

[Deepgreen]

One good reason for first class on a lot of long distance services is the way that we use our long distance trains to double up as local or regional services.

As a commuter on a 15-20 minute EMCL journey, I'm glad that first class on East Coast or XC takes up the people who want to be working, who have loads of luggage, etc - it makes my 15 minute journey a bit more comfortable than if I had to sit around them. I see the school kids who commute to work, the people who've been out shopping for the day: as short-distance travellers, we have different wants and needs to someone who is from Dundee to London, or wherever.

I agree that first class could be scrapped on many smaller trains though. TPE's 185s, which are under-capacity as a whole, have a very odd first class section that really could be used to offer more seats.

Really; are they 'moonlighting' from school?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree that first class could be scrapped on many smaller trains though. TPE's 185s, which are under-capacity as a whole, have a very odd first class section that really could be used to offer more seats.

For a period of some years, my wife travelled from Manchester Airport to Durham (quite a distance) on a bi-monthly basis in order to chair her committee meetings and never once had a bad word to say about the first class section of the TPE Class 185 units in which she always booked a seat reservation at the time of the rail tickets.

She found the first class compartment an ideal quiet place to read her agenda papers en route to the meeting and to make any final notes. Perhaps it was the time that she travelled, but she never said the first class compartment was ever under occupied.

 

[cuccir]

Really; are they 'moonlighting' from school?

Haha, yes they're down t'pit up here from 8 you know!

Clearly, I meant school

 

[Bletchleyite]

She found the first class compartment an ideal quiet place to read her agenda papers en route to the meeting and to make any final notes. Perhaps it was the time that she travelled, but she never said the first class compartment was ever under occupied.

The problem with the first class compartment is not one that will be experienced by a user per-se (in and of itself it is very pleasant). The problem is the positioning marooning a small area of Standard and a toilet on the wrong side of it, thus making that toilet underused and the other single toilet overused, and the fact that there is inadequate Standard accommodation.

 

[sheff1]

There is an old saying that a conservative is someone who wants everyone to have the opportunity to travel First Class.

No. A conservative is someone who wants the opportunity to travel First Class themselves but who believes that under no circumstances should the great unwashed be allowed to intrude upon that hallowed environment and thus lower the tone.

A few posters on this board promulgate that very line on a regular basis.

 

[shredder1]

I have no issue keeping first class providing the great unwashed also have seats

 

[fowler9]

The problem with the first class compartment is not one that will be experienced by a user per-se (in and of itself it is very pleasant). The problem is the positioning marooning a small area of Standard and a toilet on the wrong side of it, thus making that toilet underused and the other single toilet overused, and the fact that there is inadequate Standard accommodation.

Totally agree, I have used the first class on a 185 from Liverpool to Leeds and back for a wedding. It was very enjoyable, especially since it actually cost a tiny amount more than a standard advanced return on the services I used. As you said the problem with the 185's is the incredible miss use of space. There must have been a better way to set it out, the first class right at the other end for example. Many services operated by 185's end up with 2 thirds of a carriage on a 3 car train empty because of poor design and lack of first class passengers at certain times of the day.

 

[tsr]

I was led to believe that the layout of First on the 185s was originally designed that way so that wheelchair users had access to the full range of First and Standard accommodation, whilst providing just the one accessible toilet in an appropriate location.

However, it's absolutely ages since I last went on a 185, so I could be forgetting what was actually provided when they built them.

One downfall of multiple units with First Class predominantly at the ends of the outermost coaches, and away from the accessible facilities, certainly is that those needing the wheelchair space or larger toilet can't then access the premium accommodation if they wish to.

My preferred solution would be a modified design of the four-car 171/8, where the only First Class would be at one end of a single DMOS, but taking up about half the carriage. There would be a wheelchair space (perhaps with a fold-down seat) in this area, and a wide door through to a multi-purpose vestibule, also containing the set of doors nearest the accessible toilet module. That multi-purpose vestibule would be standard class, like the rest of the train beyond, and could contain the large toilet module, Standard Class wheelchair space, a luggage/bike area and so on, as now, plus fold-down seats for cyclists and others wanting to keep an eye on belongings, and maybe a conductor locker or office compartment.

 

[wellhouse]

Is it time to abolish first class?

No

It could be argued that this would solve some of the capacity problems.

Capacity shortfall is best addressed by increased service provision, with enhanced train length and service frequency. The trend towards making standard class accommodation less comfortable, (less table provision, harder more upright seats, reduced seat pitch, more standing) should be resisted. There is some single class rolling stock that does offer reasonable standard class comfort and space (ATW Class 175 and South Eastern Class 395 come to mind) but but Class 700 and Class 800 (neither of which I have yet travelled on) do appear to offer declining comfort.

It is often very expensive compared to standard.

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

There are significant fare price differentials on many flows, not just by class. Many passengers just seek the lowest fare, but many others have a range of priorities for which they will pay a premium, and it makes sense for TOCs to adopt pricing strategies accordingly: flexibility (Walk-Up against Advance) Speed (VTWC against LM and Chiltern) Time of Travel (Peak against Off-Peak) and Price (Operator specific tickets). For those for whom greater space and comfort or enhanced catering are priorities it is reasonable that there is an option to pay for it.

Often not really that much different.

Fair point, but that is a commercial decision. I share many passengers' disappointment in the deteriorating First Class offer of some TOCs. Thameslink Class 319 First Class compartments used to offer 2+1 seating with full tables, while the Class 387 and Class 700 First Class is little different from Standard.

With the general trend towards casual attitudes in society, some might say it's time for class to be done with. Any opinions?

The 'trend towards casual' is not a trend towards less comfort. There are many boutique hotels that combine informal style with high levels of comfort. The branding 'First Class' may be somewhat dated, but it still is pretty much universally applied in the travel industry (air and rail) around the world. Virgin Cross Country's 'Club Class' brand did not endure.

It most certainly is NOT!!!!

Do you want us all to travel "Corbyn-class"..

In Chris Mullin's 'A Very British Coup' the newly-elected radical Labour Prime Minister was asked if he was going to abolish First Class; his respose was 'No, we're going to abolish Second Class!'

So - is there a distance cutoff below which FC space might be better used (assuming someone will bear the cost of reconfiguring units)?

First Class should only exist on what was once the Intercity services of BR era

For all the talk of 'former Intercity' services deserving First Class, perhaps duration is a more relevant factor. If London-Leeds (2hrs 12mins) and London-Birmingham (1hr 24mins) deserve First Class, then why not Manchester-Tenby (6hrs 25mins) or Liverpool-Norwich (5hrs 21 mins)? A further important consideration is connectivity; many indirect journeys involve lengthy legs on connecting local or commuter services (As an extreme example, less than 2 hours of the 8 hrs 36mins coast to coast journey from Aberystwyth to Great Yarmouth includes First Class accommodation. A more typical journey might be 5hrs 13mins from Hebden Bridge to Brighton, of which just 2hrs 12mins is on the 'InterCity' leg from Leeds to Kings Cross. 2 Hrs 21 mins are on local and commuter connections, with the rest being connection times)

On most trains it is exactly identical to std class (except for head cloths on seats).

Whle this may be true with some TOCs and classes of stock, it is far from universally the case. There is a clear distinction between First and Standard on long distance services with such TOCs as First Great Western, First Transpennine Express, both Virgin TOCs and Cross Country. Other TOCs have notably downgraded the First Class offer so that the only advantage is the greater likelihood of passengers boarding at intermediate stations getting a peak hour (uncomfortable!) seat.

It is also normally completly empty.

Never true on long distance services This may be the case on some off-peak commuter services. On Peak Services First will be the last area of the train to fill up, but that is what the premium fare is specifically for; more space and comfort.

I would also consider axing it from the shorter distance TPE routes so I would probably axe it on the 185's.

First Class ...should be a minimium of one carriage...I don't agree with TPE current First Class offering.

The problem with the first class compartment ... is the positioning marooning a small area of Standard and a toilet on the wrong side of it, thus making that toilet underused and the other single toilet overused.

...the problem with the 185's is the incredible miss use of space. There must have been a better way to set it out, the first class right at the other end for example.

As a regular user of First Transpennine Express, I find the First Class accommodation very pleasant The upside of the small Standard Class area between First and the end of the train is that all doors give access to Standard Class seating. The 15 First Class seats seem an appropriate proportion of a 3-car Multiple Unit, and they occupy the same space as 24 Standard seats in the other end coach (Much of the centre section of the First Class coach is taken up by wheelchair area/tip-up Standard seats, luggage storage, and Catering Trolley Stowage.

The proposal to move First to the other end of the train fails as there is sufficient room behind the driver's cab for a maximum of only 12 First Class seats (without any luggage stowage) Splitting the Wheelchair Area, First Class (with luggage rack), and Trolley Stowage would mean an overall less efficient use of space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The proposal to move First to the other end of the train fails as there is sufficient room behind the driver's cab for a maximum of only 12 First Class seats (without any luggage stowage)

No, you could have as many as you want by splitting it either side of the first door as per the Class 321. This would also provide the benefit of two smaller, quieter and more private compartments rather than one large one.

 

[GodAtum]

I hate it when you cannot predict where 1st class will be on the platform. Southern 377s are easy as they are both ends of the train. But a SWT 444 it could be at the front or back.

 

[swt_passenger]

But a SWT 444 it could be at the front or back.

In my experience first class on a 444 will nearly always (possibly around 99% of the time) be at the London end of the train, and when it is not they'll almost always put it on the station displays, and make suitable automatic announcements.

 

[Deepgreen]

In my experience first class on a 444 will nearly always (possibly around 99% of the time) be at the London end of the train, and when it is not they'll almost always put it on the station displays, and make suitable automatic announcements.

I caught a 444 this week and first class was at the rear, London-bound. I have never noticed a pattern of first being at the London end. Experiences clearly differ. Of course, if TOCs adopted clear external labelling the issue would reduce - Southeastern's 375s are hard to better in this regard.